MW2 cotroversy (spoilers)

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Again, you didn't have to do it. They were also carrying illegal cargo (I think it was a nuke) and I'm pretty sure they were also the regular russian bad guys/terrorists. They were not innocent civilians.

Yeah they're evil terrorists because there's some secret cargo on the ship they don't know about and are Russians just like the big bad guys.

Hmm, ignore these guesses, I guess. I'm not sure they knew about the cargo or were "bad guys". I'm not even sure they were Russian. I'm not trying to justify their death: the SAS really acted like cold killing machines in their missions.

 

But it's still not as grave as a whole mission based around killing civilians.

[alanschu]

We're still not sure precisely the context of that mission.

[lord of flies]

Hmm, ignore these guesses, I guess. I'm not sure they knew about the cargo or were "bad guys". I'm not even sure they were Russian. I'm not trying to justify their death: the SAS really acted like cold killing machines in their missions.

 

But it's still not as grave as a whole mission based around killing civilians.

There was a constant undercurrent of inhumanity, murder, and imperialist slaughter in the original Modern Warfare. Civilians are killed right in front of you, captured political leaders executed by protagonists and antagonists alike, hundreds of thousands of people killed, et cetera. The fact that you are so distressed by an optional mission where you choose if you kill civilians is rather telling - what distinguishes it from the boat mission in Modern Warfare? What's so different about watching some Russian Ultranationalists murder civilians and watching the Arabic revolutionaries killing people in the original? Oh, right, now I remember: in MW2 the people you kill are upper-class whites.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

The difference is you're the one doing the shooting for the entire mission, I've been saying that for a while. There was a lot of death and slaughter in CoD4, but it was never as direct as shooting civilians.

[lord of flies]

The difference is you're the one doing the shooting for the entire mission, I've been saying that for a while. There was a lot of death and slaughter in CoD4, but it was never as direct as shooting civilians.

The mission is like three minutes long if you dilly-dally, if I recall correctly. And again, you will almost certainly not actually have to shoot civilians.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

LOF just wants to see some capitalist pigdogs die.

[lord of flies]

LOF just wants to see some capitalist pigdogs die.

I may replay the sequence for its inherent value, yes. However, it's silly to complain about people dying in an airport, because that is literally the only thing which significantly differentiates it from Modern Warfare's history of civilian murder. Perhaps in raw numbers too, but the numbers killed in the nuke were far in excess. Oh, and the option to skip it (which was not included for past war crime sections). Edited October 31, 2009 by lord of flies

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Oh, and the option to skip it (which was not included for past war crime sections).

 

Ok now I'm just repeating myself. Hopefully you'll read more than a word of this.

 

You can skip killing the sleeping russians. You can choose to not kill those surrendering soldiers. The "war crimes" are not done by the player character.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

You can skip killing the sleeping russians. You can choose to not kill those surrendering soldiers.

 

You can choose not to shoot the airport peoples by skipping that part.

 

See! See! I can make that argument too!

[RPGmasterBoo]

Funny that no one complained about shooting half of black africa in that Delta Force: Black Hawk Down rubbish.

 

The body count beat Quake at certain points.

 

Still you don't hear Africans bitching about it. Could be because they aren't going to be disturbed about something as trivial as a computer game.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I actually mentioned that game but no one bothered to say that was so different. I think they just want to ignore it.

 

EDIT:

 

...realistic portrayal of events which actually happened in a real-world setting.

 

Again, where are you getting that information? The game is a work of fiction. Also, are you against the "Black Hawk Down" games? If not, why? They are much more of a "realistic portrayal of events which actually happened in a real-world setting" than Modern Warfare 2.

 

 

Do you play as a terrorist in the "Black Hawk Down" game?

 

You play as an attacking force that can slaughter civilians... But wait, because the attackers happen to be Delta Force members that doesn't count! the US of A is always right and can kill anyone without being evil! That must be true!

Edited October 31, 2009 by Deadly_Nightshade

[RPGmasterBoo]

Yep.

 

Besides this is hardly the first time the CoD series tries something like this. World at War had a similar episode where you could shoot cornered german pow's, and you could either kill them or simply do nothing. A pow is as defenceless as a civilian so the difference is not that great.

[lord of flies]

Ok now I'm just repeating myself. Hopefully you'll read more than a word of this.

 

You can skip killing the sleeping russians. You can choose to not kill those surrendering soldiers. The "war crimes" are not done by the player character.

Again, it is extremely unlikely that you will actually be forced to shoot people during this section, only expected too, just like in the boat mission or with the POWs. Hopefully, you'll read more than a word of this.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Yep.

 

Besides this is hardly the first time the CoD series tries something like this. World at War had a similar episode where you could shoot cornered german pow's, and you could either kill them or simply do nothing. A pow is as defenceless as a civilian so the difference is not that great.

Shooting them is actually the lesser of two evils as the other Russian soldiers will burn them alive with molotov ****tails if you don't open fire. I liked the brutal depiction of the Russians invading Berlin. The only thing missing from the game was the mass rape of German girls and women for the glorious finale.

[Oner]

Still you don't hear Africans bitching about it. Could be because they aren't going to be disturbed about something as trivial as a computer game.

RE 5. I rest my case.

[213374U]

Still you don't hear Africans bitching about it. Could be because they aren't going to be disturbed about something as trivial as a computer game.

Wait, games are now "trivial"? I thought they were ART.

 

Which one is it?

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

You can skip killing the sleeping russians. You can choose to not kill those surrendering soldiers.

 

You can choose not to shoot the airport peoples by skipping that part.

 

See! See! I can make that argument too!

He was saying the option to skip it hadn't been present before. Somehow I think you missed my point.

Edited October 31, 2009 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[RPGmasterBoo]

Yep.

 

Besides this is hardly the first time the CoD series tries something like this. World at War had a similar episode where you could shoot cornered german pow's, and you could either kill them or simply do nothing. A pow is as defenceless as a civilian so the difference is not that great.

Shooting them is actually the lesser of two evils as the other Russian soldiers will burn them alive with molotov ****tails if you don't open fire. I liked the brutal depiction of the Russians invading Berlin. The only thing missing from the game was the mass rape of German girls and women for the glorious finale.

 

You don't know what will happen the first time around, its not as though you can load a previous position in real life - hence the moral choice is existent.

 

The rape was massively exaggerated, by the admittance of the personal secretary of Goebbels herself ("Where there was one case, we (broadcasted) three"). Personally, considering what the germans did on the territories of the Soviet Union its a surprise the Russians left anything alive in germany.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Still you don't hear Africans bitching about it. Could be because they aren't going to be disturbed about something as trivial as a computer game.

RE 5. I rest my case.

 

If I recall correctly it wasn't the africans themselves who cried "racist" it was the US/EU press who raised that storm-in-a-teacup.

 

Wait, games are now "trivial"? I thought they were ART.

 

Which one is it?

 

Entertainment (often trivial) with the possibility of being art.

 

You're not following.

[213374U]

The rape was massively exaggerated, by the admittance of the personal secretary of Goebbels herself ("Where there was one case, we (broadcasted) three"). Personally, considering what the germans did on the territories of the Soviet Union its a surprise the Russians left anything alive in germany.

Yeah, because war crimes justify war crimes, obviously.

 

 

Entertainment (often trivial) with the possibility of being art.

 

You're not following.

LOL

 

So, essentially, we must bow to your mostly arbitrary criteria to tell us peons what is ART and what is just a trivial pastime.

 

Thanks for the laugh.

[RPGmasterBoo]

The rape was massively exaggerated, by the admittance of the personal secretary of Goebbels herself ("Where there was one case, we (broadcasted) three"). Personally, considering what the germans did on the territories of the Soviet Union its a surprise the Russians left anything alive in germany.

Yeah, because war crimes justify war crimes, obviously.

 

 

Entertainment (often trivial) with the possibility of being art.

 

You're not following.

LOL

 

So, essentially, we must bow to your mostly arbitrary criteria to tell us peons what is ART and what is just a trivial pastime.

 

Thanks for the laugh.

 

It was not a question of justification, the first sentence is fact, the second an observation. You're not reading.

 

 

News flash: that's how it happens. Imagine that, but I didn't get a vote as to whether Mona Lisa is art or not. Learn to live with it.

But since there is none, even slightly unified opinion on anything in gaming I'd advise you to settle for your own, for the lack of a better option. Like I do. Which seems to bother you a whole lot for some reason.

[213374U]

It was not a question of justification, the first sentence is fact, the second an observation. You're not reading.

No, I'm reading just fine. It was the "personally", in your sentence that rubbed me the wrong way. Why would you expect the Soviets to repay Germany's crimes with some atrocities of their own?

 

 

News flash: that's how it happens. Imagine that, but I didn't get a vote as to whether Mona Lisa is art or not. Learn to live with it.

But since there is none, even slightly unified opinion on anything in gaming I'd advise you to settle for your own, for the lack of a better option. Like I do. Which seems to bother you a whole lot for some reason.

Nah, I'm fine with people having different opinions; it'd be too boring otherwise. It's your tendency to pass your opinion as fact and pontificate about your highly refined tastes and educated understanding of all things artistic that riles me.

 

Painting, as a whole, is considered art. Music, as a whole, is considered art. Games as a whole are not considered art, save for the cases in which RPGMasterBoo I issues a bull decreeing an exception - for no apparent reason other than the occurrence that he seems to like a particular title quite a lot. See the inconsistency yet?

 

Bah.

[GreasyDogMeat]

You don't know what will happen the first time around, its not as though you can load a previous position in real life - hence the moral choice is existent.

 

The rape was massively exaggerated, by the admittance of the personal secretary of Goebbels herself ("Where there was one case, we (broadcasted) three"). Personally, considering what the germans did on the territories of the Soviet Union its a surprise the Russians left anything alive in germany.

Its hardly a meta-game moment to realize that the other Russians will kill the Germans. Russians had been executing begging surrendered Germans left and right all through the level up to that point and one of the characters yells out that the men will not be denied their revenge.

 

Exaggerated, of course. Not by much I imagine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

-"In Poland, Nazi atrocities ended by late 1944, but they were replaced by Soviet oppression with the advance of Soviet forces. Soviet soldiers often engaged in plunder, rape, and other crimes against the Poles, causing the population to fear and hate the Soviet regime."

 

-"The Red Army's violence against the local German population during the occupation of eastern Germany often led to incidents like that in Demmin, a small city conquered by the Soviets in the spring of 1945. Despite its surrender, nearly 900 civilians committed suicide, fueled by instances of pillaging, rape, and executions."

 

-"During the occupation of Budapest, (Hungary), it is estimated that 50,000 women and girls were raped.

Hungarian girls in general were taken to the Red Army quarters, where they were incarcerated, raped, and sometimes murdered. These atrocities were committed even against embassy staff from neutral countries, as when Soviet soldiers attacked the Swedish legation in Germany."

 

-"Although the Red Army crossed only a very small part of Yugoslavia in 1944, its activities there caused great concern for the Yugoslav communist partisans, who feared that the rapes and plundering by their Soviet allies would weaken their standing with the population. At least 121 cases of rape were documented later, 111 of which also involved murder. A total of 1,204 cases of looting with assault were documented. Stalin responded to a Yugoslav partisan leader's complaints about the Red Army's conduct by saying, "Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometers through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?""

 

No fan of Nazi Germany... but I don't really consider Stalin's Russia all that far from the Nazis.

[RPGmasterBoo]

It was not a question of justification, the first sentence is fact, the second an observation. You're not reading.

No, I'm reading just fine. It was the "personally", in your sentence that rubbed me the wrong way. Why would you expect the Soviets to repay Germany's crimes with some atrocities of their own?

 

 

News flash: that's how it happens. Imagine that, but I didn't get a vote as to whether Mona Lisa is art or not. Learn to live with it.

But since there is none, even slightly unified opinion on anything in gaming I'd advise you to settle for your own, for the lack of a better option. Like I do. Which seems to bother you a whole lot for some reason.

Nah, I'm fine with people having different opinions; it'd be too boring otherwise. It's your tendency to pass your opinion as fact and pontificate about your highly refined tastes and educated understanding of all things artistic that riles me.

 

Painting, as a whole, is considered art. Music, as a whole, is considered art. Games as a whole are not considered art, save for the cases in which RPGMasterBoo I issues a bull decreeing an exception - for no apparent reason other than the occurrence that he seems to like a particular title quite a lot. See the inconsistency yet?

 

Bah.

 

Because by that time, there wasn't a person in Russia that hadn't lost a member of their family to the invasion. That makes for itchy trigger fingers. Second, the war nazi Germany imposed on the eastern front was a war to extinction due to its anti-slav Lebensraum policies. "Estimated USSR losses within postwar borders now stand at 26.6 million. "

. So there is no "some" atrocities, the entire war effort of Nazi germany in the east was a planned atrocity to clear out the land of the lesser races. Thus i wouldnt have been surprised if gaining the upper hand towards 44' 45' led to the same sort of eradication.

 

No there is no inconsistency as the same applies to Film and Comics. Both are entertainment most of the time, art sometimes.

After a lifetime of playing games and reading reviews, I found that I value my own opinion more than anybody else's. *shrugs* Not that you or anyone else is that much different. I'm just more vocal. Nothing is stopping you from declaring any game art, either. I'm not even likely to dispute it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

No fan of Nazi Germany... but I don't really consider Stalin's Russia all that far from the Nazis.

 

Just take into account that:

a) almost all books on WW2 eastern front in the west use exclusively german sources, due to the cold war

b) the USSR is dead and cannot participate and oppose these claims, so its essentially victor's word against a dead enemy

c) the sources listed are predominantly english ones, with some chezch and polish (the english ones are written from german sources)...which doesn't invalidate them but its hard to talk about neutrality

 

Overall, I agree that there were probably many instances of rape. (like in any war) As to the exact numbers, they could be anything.

 

I'm not a fan of Stalin's Russia in regards to its treatment of its own citizens but as far as the war effort is concerned, they did crush germany and didn't abuse the overwhelming power they had at the end of the war against the german population, even after every family lost a member. That takes a lot of forgiveness.