alanschu Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I simply cannot understand why people have no problem recognizing and condemning imperialism when it comes to Japan or the USSR, but the US is always thankfully exempt in a historical context. Oh, right. It's because of "democracy". Are we buying into the theory that Roosevelt and Co. left their battleship lane exposed to be specifically attacked without having any crippling Carrier losses? Keep in mind that at this time, and even after Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor, the idea that naval wars would be decided with decisive battle with the main battle fleet was still a common one. The US had been preparing for a possible war with Japan since the 1920s, and had already begun working on War Plan Orange. Japan was also a big fan of the idea of decisive battle, which is why the battleships of the US were the primary targets of the raid. Yamamoto was the big proponent for carrier warfare in Japan, but he still had to fight with politics, as did the US naval commanders. Given that Japan's previous attacks came by way of "surprise attacks" the US was indeed anticipating one. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a surprise attack. Especially since they certainly were not expecting it to happen at Pearl Harbor.
213374U Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I fail to see how that relates to what you quoted. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Actually Finland was allied with Germany and at war with Russia, who we fought and won. Then ze germans burned half of our country while retreating. The US had their nukes aimed at Helsinki during the cold war. So you haven't saved us once. Really? Why? Anyway, without the US you'd be one of the Socialist Republics. Edit: Also, technically, you didn't win. Edited October 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Purkake Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! Edited October 13, 2009 by Purkake
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! I'm sure they're not doing better than US, you don't know much about US. What I meant was that they'd be part of the Soviet Union, not whether they're socialist or not. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Pidesco Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Actually Finland isn't part of the Soviet Union because they defended themselves against the Red Army. Oh, and Finland is a much more prosperous country than the US in about every way imaginable. Admittedly, the US has a much better conventional army, but even that isn't usually very helpful when fighting irregular warfare. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist I am Dan Quayle of the Romans. I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands. Heja Sverige!! Everyone should cuffawkle more. The wrench is your friend.
Purkake Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! I'm sure they're not doing better than US, you don't know much about US. What I meant was that they'd be part of the Soviet Union, not whether they're socialist or not. They actually fought the Soviet Union and won. Look up Winter War Edited October 13, 2009 by Purkake
alanschu Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I fail to see how that relates to what you quoted. Well, the rest of the post was an examination on how the US was supporting the Allies war effort. Though really, that shouldn't come at that much of a surprise. I don't think there's much of an argument that there were members of the US government that wanted into the war.
213374U Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Hahahaha. Frankly, the problem I see is that without America, you'd see a sharp rise in Chinese, Russian and Iranian imperialism. And that'd be a whole lot more difficult to stomach because that means, variously, communism, fascism, and Islamism. Wow, Krezack actually makes sense. US imposed sanctions on Japan because of their illegal and extraordinarily brutal invasion of China. There was nothing at all wrong with those sanctions. Most of you need to study up on history before you start whining about US imperialism, which by the way saved most of your dumb asses repeatedly. Ah. So that was actually a move to protect the poor, poor Chinese, not motivated by concerns that Japan may encroach on their sphere of influence in the Pacific. A pity you didn't apply the same equal opportunity humanitarian protection before the war (Italian invasion of Ethiopia), during the war (Soviet annexation of the Baltic states and invasion of Finland), and after the war (massive deportations of German civilians carried out by the Soviets). And you demand that others take history lessons and substantiate their opinions? You are a joke. Well, the rest of the post was an examination on how the US was supporting the Allies war effort. Though really, that shouldn't come at that much of a surprise.Fine. I'm not buying into any alternate explanations simply because they serve to better support my opinions, either. I believe the attack genuinely surprised the US, even if the act of attacking itself was foreseeable, and desirable even, by FDR. Edited October 13, 2009 by 213374U - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! I'm sure they're not doing better than US, you don't know much about US. What I meant was that they'd be part of the Soviet Union, not whether they're socialist or not. They actually fought the Soviet Union and won. Look up Winter War Finland ceded about 9 percent of its pre-war territory and 20 percent of its industrial capacity to the Soviet Union. From your link. They won? It's amazing how ignorant you guys are. And Finland is more prosperous than the US? No wonder people keep posting such stupid posts here, talk about the failure of the education system. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Purkake Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 They kept their independence while the whole Eastern Europe went under the Soviet Union, also
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) US imposed sanctions on Japan because of their illegal and extraordinarily brutal invasion of China. There was nothing at all wrong with those sanctions. Most of you need to study up on history before you start whining about US imperialism, which by the way saved most of your dumb asses repeatedly.Ah. So that was actually a move to protect the poor, poor Chinese, not motivated by concerns that Japan may encroach on their sphere of influence in the Pacific. A pity you didn't apply the same equal opportunity humanitarian protection before the war (Italian invasion of Ethiopia), during the war (Soviet annexation of the Baltic states and invasion of Finland), and after the war (massive deportations of German civilians carried out by the Soviets). And you demand that others take history lessons and substantiate their opinions? You are a joke. Soviets annexed Baltic states and invaded Finland before the war, and US did take various actions to protest those things, for example the Soviet Union was kicked out of the League of Nations, and of course there was the Cold War with the Soviets because of their post war behavior. You're the ignorant joke. Edit: fixed quotes, "before the war" Edited October 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
213374U Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! I'm sure they're not doing better than US, you don't know much about US. What I meant was that they'd be part of the Soviet Union, not whether they're socialist or not. Lol, another obviously well substantiated opinion, fully supported by facts. Yes. Most certainly. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
213374U Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Soviets annexed Baltic states and invaded Finland during the war, and US did take various actions to protest those things, for example the Soviet Union was kicked out of the League of Nations, and of course there was the Cold War with the Soviets because of their post war behavior. You're the ignorant joke.Yes, they did "various things", such as, nothing at all. The League of Nations (not the US) expelled the SU. And how does that compare to the economic strangulation carried out against Japan? Talk about the failure of the education system, indeed. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Pidesco Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 The USSR wasn't looking to annex a bit of Finland, they were looking to conquer Finland outright and had an army which dwarfed anything the Finns could field. The Russians were beaten back. Also, I'd like to know what magical definition of prosperity is it that you use in order do define the US as more prosperous than Finland. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist I am Dan Quayle of the Romans. I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands. Heja Sverige!! Everyone should cuffawkle more. The wrench is your friend.
Humodour Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! I'm sure they're not doing better than US, you don't know much about US. Whereas you don't know much about anything? Finland does better than the US on every single measure I can think of. Let's see... Environmental performance: Finland: 4th America: 39th Education: Finland: 1st and 2nd in everything - if there was a brightest country in the world, this would be it America: Below the OECD average in most (possibly all?) categories. Certainly not in the top 20 countries for anything. Press freedom: Finland: 4th America: 36th Corruption: Finland: 5th America: 18th Human Development: Finland: 12th America: 13th (so close!) Income disparity (lower is better, exponential scale): Finland: 27.0 America: 45.0 Government debt: Finland: 35% of GDP America: 60.8% of GDP (actually it's higher now, but whatever) Unemployment: Finland: 7.6% America: 9.5% Life expectancy at birth: Finland: 78.97 America: 78.11 GDP per capita: Finland: $52,000 USD America: $47,000 If there's a point where I should stop, this is probably it. Heck, Finland is even part of the EU - a superstate with a military, economy and political clout which all rival or exceed America's. Finland just keeps on going, don't it? They're just numbers, but they tell a darn sight more of the real story than your big mouth does.
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! I'm sure they're not doing better than US, you don't know much about US. What I meant was that they'd be part of the Soviet Union, not whether they're socialist or not. Lol, another obviously well substantiated opinion, fully supported by facts. Yes. Most certainly. Those studies and indexes are idiotic. Also any average will bring US down because of our underclass, but I wasn't talking about them. Edit: Per capita GDP is skewed because of the value of the US dollar. There's no question US has the most prosperous middle class in the world (i.e. people who aren't completely stupid and willing to work) unless compared to a small country with tons of oil. Edited October 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
213374U Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Yeah, those bothersome infra-humans. They aren't real citizens anyway. lololol - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Pidesco Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Yes, they forgot to step on that pesky underclass before publishing that data. They keep getting in the way. There's no question US has the most prosperous middle class in the world wat "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist I am Dan Quayle of the Romans. I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands. Heja Sverige!! Everyone should cuffawkle more. The wrench is your friend.
Humodour Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 They're pretty socialist as it is AND doing much better than the US could dream of(in terms of education, medical care, social benefits etc.), so take that! I'm sure they're not doing better than US, you don't know much about US. What I meant was that they'd be part of the Soviet Union, not whether they're socialist or not. Lol, another obviously well substantiated opinion, fully supported by facts. Yes. Most certainly. Those studies and indexes are idiotic. Also any average will bring US down because of our underclass, but I wasn't talking about them. Edit: Per capita GDP is skewed because of the value of the US dollar. There's no question US has the most prosperous middle class in the world (i.e. people who aren't completely stupid and willing to work) unless compared to a small country with tons of oil. This is worse than talking to a brick wall. At least a brick wall doesn't pretend to know economics.
213374U Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Edit: Per capita GDP is skewed because of the value of the US dollar.Uh, okay. HDI 2008 is ADJUSTED to take that into consideration, genius. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
alanschu Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Dagon seems to be buying into the "If the numbers don't support my view, the numbers are wrong" perspective.
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Soviets annexed Baltic states and invaded Finland during the war, and US did take various actions to protest those things, for example the Soviet Union was kicked out of the League of Nations, and of course there was the Cold War with the Soviets because of their post war behavior. You're the ignorant joke.Yes, they did "various things", such as, nothing at all. The League of Nations (not the US) expelled the SU. And how does that compare to the economic strangulation carried out against Japan? Talk about the failure of the education system, indeed. Before the war US had nothing to do with the SU to start with, and we could hardly embargo oil since SU is swimming in it. With Japan US could severely damage Japanese military operations with the embargo. You just keep beating your ridiculous dead horse when it should be abundantly clear your argument make no sense. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
213374U Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Before the war US had nothing to do with the SU to start with, and we could hardly embargo oil since SU is swimming in it. With Japan US could severely damage Japanese military operations with the embargo.The economic strangulation of Japan wasn't the only measure the US took against the Axis. Have you read the Hull ultimatum? So, since they couldn't embargo the Soviet Union's oil... they couldn't think of anything else to do, and they just sat back. I doubt they were really as stupid as you. You just keep beating your ridiculous dead horse when it should be abundantly clear your argument make no sense.Yeah, just like OECD statistics, right? Edited October 13, 2009 by 213374U - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Edit: Per capita GDP is skewed because of the value of the US dollar.Uh, okay. HDI 2008 is ADJUSTED to take that into consideration, genius. I was talking about Krezack's per capita GDP genius. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
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