The Nobel Peace prize goes to Barack Obama

[alanschu]

^^ That is indeed true.

 

And Walsingham, you'd have a hard time convincing everyone in the Commonwealth that they were British. For instance, I'd consider India in 1940 to be officially a part of Britain, though not any of the countries that had obtained Dominion status.

 

Canada received Dominion status way back in 1867, and while we recognize the Queen as the official Head of State via our Constitutional Monarchy through our Governor General, the position is primarily ceremonial with the Prime Minister being our head of government. Referring to Canadian citizens as Britons would have been interesting in the 1930s. Same would have been to anyone referring to Canada as British.

Edited October 13, 2009 by alanschu

[213374U]

aaaaaaand the honeymoon is over:

 

MOSCOW — Threatening Iran with harsh new sanctions to advance negotiations over its nuclear program would be “counterproductive,” Russia’s foreign minister said Tuesday, throwing cold water on the Obama administration’s hopes that Russia had been persuaded to cooperate with its effort to intensify the global pressure on Tehran.

Counterproductive, indeed. It may even hurt their weapons deals!

 

 

I wonder if I confused it for when I would usually DoW Yugoslavia in my Hearts of Iron games

 

Don't know why I thought it was 1940, as Yugoslavia definitely fell AFTER France. Whoops.

You gamey IC whore, you!

 

OT: it's perfectly possible to annex Yugoslavia in 1940 after finishing the Frenchies if you leave Scandinavia alone.

 

edit: changed link

Edited October 13, 2009 by 213374U

[Lare Kikkeli]

Reading back a few pages...lol

 

All I can say is USA is a better place to live if you're rich. Otherwise Finland wins in every aspect (looking at numbers that is, individual opinions may differ I guess). Unless you're a shade darker than snow white that is, but I guess that's the deal in the states as well.

 

There's a lot of nanny state bull**** and conservatism here, as well as some darker sides of moderate socialism (I'm serving mandatory national service at the moment, military or work for no pay for 12 months).

 

Wrath of Dagon, you can crash at my place if you ever decide to visit.

 

 

edit: We won the winter war. Plain simple. Baltic countries didn't. Actually the allied forces declared war on Finland at some point because we allied with the Nazis to keep the USSR away. Necessary evil. Then a few years later we tried to get back the land we lost and that didn't end so well but eh who remembers losses anyway...

 

Also Russia was kept at bay in the following years thanks to good trade and diplomatic relations.

 

 

And to actually contribute to the topic, it's a peace prize named after the man who invented (and made a fortune by) modern land and sea mines. Nobel himself would have 0 chance of winning his own prize.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Lare Kikkeli

[alanschu]

You gamey IC whore, you!

 

OT: it's perfectly possible to annex Yugoslavia in 1940 after finishing the Frenchies if you leave Scandinavia alone.

 

edit: changed link

 

 

In HOI2 I was usually quick enough to defeat Poland in 6-7 days, redeploy on the western border to crush France before winter was ever a concern. Then I'd head south into Yugoslavia. After that, it was time to focus on Norway and Denmark, and the prepare Operation Sealion.

[213374U]

You in a hurry to go somewhere?

 

[alanschu]

Haha I had a hard date of 1947 or so to conquer most of the known world, and once you break the mainline of the Soviet Union, it takes a while to mop up the rest of it

 

This was with the Historical Stony Road to War mod too, which actually made the game a bit harder. I had to get all of my forces over to the Western Border by September 23, 1939, otherwise the military commanders would insist I wait for winter and if I DoW'd during that time, it caused huge dissent and all sorts of bad things.

[Wrath of Dagon]

edit: We won the winter war. Plain simple. Baltic countries didn't. Actually the allied forces declared war on Finland at some point because we allied with the Nazis to keep the USSR away. Necessary evil. Then a few years later we tried to get back the land we lost and that didn't end so well but eh who remembers losses anyway...

 

Also Russia was kept at bay in the following years thanks to good trade and diplomatic relations.

Not that I don't admire Finnish heroism against overwhelming odds, but that's just not the case. Finns asked the Soviets for terms, and agreed to give up Finnish territory. By any definition that's not a victory. At best the loss wasn't as bad as it could've been.

[213374U]

A Pyrrhic victory is still technically a victory, eh?

[mkreku]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone be as utterly humiliated and proven wrong again and again as Wrath of Dagon.. and he doesn't even comprehend the fact!

 

Hilarious! This thread can never die!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Phony statistics don't prove me wrong.

[Purkake]

 

Epic thread confirmed!

Edited October 13, 2009 by Purkake

[Guard Dog]

Here is a juicy little nugget, just days after winning the Nobel Peace Prize Obama orders the escalation of the war in Afghanistan:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...?nav%3Dhcmodule

 

I can't help but laugh at how quietly this was done. No press release or any announcment. I guess he didn't want thoses old birds on the Nobel comittee to find out. Also this is good stuff:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/13...er-buster-fast/

 

Hmmm, this thing has been in development for five years and Iran has just been caught with an ultra-secret underground weapons plant. Whats the rush Obama? Not planning any bombing missons are you?

 

Those Nobel guys won't like that! Nor will all of the spineless little limp wristed liberals who think Iran will just give up their nuclear ambitions if we're just "nice" to them.

 

*Note to all, please do not read any endorsement or derision of Obama or what he might do in this post. Irony is definitely my favorite typoe of humor and this was just too good.*

[alanschu]

RE: Soviet Winter War

 

When you go into a nation with such a ridiculous disparity in armed forces, with the expectation of a quick total annexation of that nation, even if you get something you're hardly considered the undisputed victor of the war.

 

The USSR was laughed at for how poorly the Winter War went based on their expectations and force disparity.

 

 

In Nikita Khrushchev's words:

In our war against the Finns we could choose the location of the war and the date of its start. In number we were superior to the enemy, we had enough time to get ready for the operation. But on these most favourable terms we could only win through huge difficulties and incredibly great losses. In fact this victory was a moral defeat. Our people certainly never got knowledge of it because we never told them the truth.

 

 

He considered the victory to be a moral defeat. All of the terms of battle heavily favoured the Soviet Union, but they couldn't force this pesky little state to submit.

 

Sure the Soviet Union gained some territory out of the deal, but any respected historian isn't going to look back on the Winter War in a positive light for the Soviet Union, despite their territorial gains.

Edited October 13, 2009 by alanschu

[alanschu]

Phony statistics don't prove me wrong.

 

No, but actual facts do.

 

All you've done is beat your chest declaring that the US is the best, with nothing to show for it. While at the same time, other people have challenged it, and presented actual data to verify their positions, while you are simply dismissive saying that those numbers are irrelevant, while providing nothing to actually demonstrate how those numbers are irrelevant.

[213374U]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10/13...er-buster-fast/

 

Hmmm, this thing has been in development for five years and Iran has just been caught with an ultra-secret underground weapons plant. Whats the rush Obama? Not planning any bombing missons are you?

I thought they already had all the conventional bunker busters they needed. And also some bunker buster nukes. Pen Edited October 13, 2009 by 213374U

[Lare Kikkeli]

edit: We won the winter war. Plain simple. Baltic countries didn't. Actually the allied forces declared war on Finland at some point because we allied with the Nazis to keep the USSR away. Necessary evil. Then a few years later we tried to get back the land we lost and that didn't end so well but eh who remembers losses anyway...

 

Also Russia was kept at bay in the following years thanks to good trade and diplomatic relations.

Not that I don't admire Finnish heroism against overwhelming odds, but that's just not the case. Finns asked the Soviets for terms, and agreed to give up Finnish territory. By any definition that's not a victory. At best the loss wasn't as bad as it could've been.

 

We resisted their invasion and kept our sovereignity. By your standards everything except total annexation or destruction of one side is not a victory. Playing too many computer games perhaps?

[Wrath of Dagon]

RE: Soviet Winter War

 

When you go into a nation with such a ridiculous disparity in armed forces, with the expectation of a quick total annexation of that nation, even if you get something you're hardly considered the undisputed victor of the war.

 

The USSR was laughed at for how poorly the Winter War went based on their expectations and force disparity.

 

 

In Nikita Khrushchev's words:

In our war against the Finns we could choose the location of the war and the date of its start. In number we were superior to the enemy, we had enough time to get ready for the operation. But on these most favourable terms we could only win through huge difficulties and incredibly great losses. In fact this victory was a moral defeat. Our people certainly never got knowledge of it because we never told them the truth.

 

 

He considered the victory to be a moral defeat. All of the terms of battle heavily favoured the Soviet Union, but they couldn't force this pesky little state to submit.

 

Sure the Soviet Union gained some territory out of the deal, but any respected historian isn't going to look back on the Winter War in a positive light for the Soviet Union, despite their territorial gains.

All I said is SU won, and they did. It's a historical fact and there's no way getting around it. As far as US being the best, I don't know what kind of number you'd expect to prove that.

[alanschu]

We resisted their invasion and kept our sovereignity. By your standards everything except total annexation or destruction of one side is not a victory. Playing too many computer games perhaps?

 

I think the impression is that since you lost territory, you lost the war.

 

 

 

All I said is SU won, and they did.

 

When even the Soviet leaders disagree with you, I question how much fact it is. But hey, you said so.

 

 

As far as US being the best, I don't know what kind of number you'd expect to prove that.

 

Anything aside from you simply saying that it is.

 

Why are the numbers that show the US isn't so hot so wrong? You seem quite insistent that the numbers that demonstrate that the US isn't the best at everything are just flat out incorrect, yet contribute nothing to substantiate your claims that the numbers are wrong and meaningless.

 

Are they simply meaningless because you don't like what they say? Are they meaningless because they don't accurately tell the story? What sort of facts beyond anecdotes give you such conviction?

Edited October 13, 2009 by alanschu

[213374U]

As far as US being the best, I don't know what kind of number you'd expect to prove that.

Yes, alan. Why do you hate Freedom?

 

[alanschu]

HAHAHA

[Walsingham]

I'm not sure if I hate freedom, but for some reason I really want to punch that eagle. I haven't seen a head that punchable since Ronaldo.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Walsingham

[Wrath of Dagon]

US has the largest economy and the fastest growth rate in the developed world. That's all the numbers I need. The Soviet leader didn't say it was a defeat, he said it's a moral defeat, which isn't the same thing. But it's useless to discuss anything with people who can't even understand a simple fact.

[alanschu]

Actually, try telling the Finns they lost the Winter War. Since they're the ones ultimately best able to tell anyone whether or not they were satisfied with the outcome.

 

 

And I assume you're talking about Cristiano Ronaldo?

[Zoraptor]

On that one issue WoD is correct, Finland did lose the Winter War- saying otherwise is like saying that Germany won WW1 because on paper the allies had a huge numerical advantage, control of the seas, and surrounded Germany, so just getting a chunk of Prussia lopped was actually a victory all things considered.

 

There's also no doubt that the Soviets could have conquered all of Finland if they had wanted to in either the Winter or Continuation Wars, in the WW by the time the armistice was signed there really wasn't much in the way of an organised Finnish army left and they'd lost all of their major defensive lines short of Helsinki, while in the Continuation War the situation was equally as bad by the end. In the end the soviets took pretty much exactly what they wanted to do by territorial exchange right at the beginning and that's pretty much it (plus the rights to use/ build a naval base on one island without sovereignty transfer, iirc).

 

Finland did perform as best as could be expected, and was exemplary in other regards (eg not invading the USSR past their original territory) but that doesn't make it a victory any more than me lasting 1 round with a heavyweight boxer is anything other than a moral victory just because he's twice my size, and unless the rules stipulate I win by lasting 1 round.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Zoraptor

[Wrath of Dagon]

Huh? Ronaldo? The Finns sued for peace and lost territory, of course they weren't satisfied with the outcome. Read the link Purkake posted.