First failed state?

[Kelverin]

But hiring illegals to do work at the home depot (example) takes jobs away from US citizens, that's a fact and to blame citizens for wanting an honest salary for an honest days work misses the point.

 

I'll concede that illegals can take jobs away from US citizens, though IMO that's more through the minimum wage law. I'd find the issue less of an issue if both could compete on the same level for wages.

But they are here illegally and do not deserve to compete, stay in your country and get the proper visa like the rest of the world does. $8.00 an hour does not go very far in CA as I indicated before, lowering the wage does not fix the problem it only causes more.

[Killian Kalthorne]

This is why we need to have immigration reform that targets employers who hire illegals and landlords who rent to them. For each illegal they should be fined $50000, and prison time if they knowingly hired or rented to an illegal. Make it too economically risky for companies to hire illegals, and criminally accountable.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[vault_overseer]

highest sales tax are: California (8.25%), Indiana (7%), Mississippi (7%), New Jersey (7%), Rhode Island (7%), Tennessee (7%), Nevada (6.85%), Washington (6.5%) and Illinois (6.25%).

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

 

Lol, I wish that was the case, current sales tax in the city of Chicago is 10.25%(maybe even 10.75%)

[mkreku]

Lower taxes cause economic growth, which causes higher revenues in the long run.

Sweden has some of the highest taxes in the world (it not THE highest, 30% higher than the US!), and from 1979 up until 2008, Sweden and the US has had roughly the same economic growth, give or take a few percent. From 1995 and onward, we've had higher economic growth than the US. This with twice as high taxes!

 

Source: http://www.newsmill.se/artikel/2009/09/27/...t-hogre-skatter

 

The source is in Swedish, as I couldn't find the English original (International Comparisons of GDP per capita and per employed person. 17 countries, 1960-2008. U.S Department of Labor Statistics. Division of International Labor Comparisons. July 28, 2009).

 

Translated from the article:

 

"Lower taxes in the United States gives the same growth as high taxes in Sweden. Higher taxes in Sweden gives the same growth as in the United States. The difference is that Sweden is a welfare State, where all citizens are relatively economically and socially secure, while the U.S. is the social divides country, including nearly 40 million poor and near 4 million homeless."

[Amentep]

highest sales tax are: California (8.25%), Indiana (7%), Mississippi (7%), New Jersey (7%), Rhode Island (7%), Tennessee (7%), Nevada (6.85%), Washington (6.5%) and Illinois (6.25%).

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

 

Lol, I wish that was the case, current sales tax in the city of Chicago is 10.25%(maybe even 10.75%)

 

That was just going by the states, not the city's taxes, so it is a bit misleading.

 

Chicago is 10.25% - 6.25% for the State, 1.25% city, 1.75% county and 1% regional transportation authority (+ an additional 1% Authority tax on food and beverage when one eats out for 11.25% for that particular instance). This leads the country in total sales taxes.

 

Memphis, Tennessee is I believe next at 9.25% - 7% for state, 2.25% for local tax (but there is no State Income Tax, whereas Illinois is going up to 4.5% this year, from what I've read.)

 

New York and Los Angeles are next around 8.5% I think.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Amentep

[Hurlshort]

This is why we need to have immigration reform that targets employers who hire illegals and landlords who rent to them. For each illegal they should be fined $50000, and prison time if they knowingly hired or rented to an illegal. Make it too economically risky for companies to hire illegals, and criminally accountable.

 

Yeah, I already posted links to articles about the economic feasibility of all this folks. I guess crazy talk with no basis in reality is more entertaining. Enjoy.

[alanschu]

But hiring illegals to do work at the home depot (example) takes jobs away from US citizens, that's a fact and to blame citizens for wanting an honest salary for an honest days work misses the point.

 

I'll concede that illegals can take jobs away from US citizens, though IMO that's more through the minimum wage law. I'd find the issue less of an issue if both could compete on the same level for wages.

But they are here illegally and do not deserve to compete, stay in your country and get the proper visa like the rest of the world does. $8.00 an hour does not go very far in CA as I indicated before, lowering the wage does not fix the problem it only causes more.

 

 

Lowering/removing the minimum wage would do wonders for ensuring that businesses aren't artificially constrained. This is irrelevant to the illegal immigration crisis.

 

One of the big side effects of minimum wage is unemployment. $8.00 an hour may not go very far, but if the alternative is not having a job and going onto welfare (and then being a 100% drain on the system), what is better for the economy?

 

Back when minimum wage got bumped from $5/hr to $6/hr when I was just leaving high school, my boss (at a small restaurant) went from employing 6 people to 5 people. His costs stayed the same, but the rest of us ended up getting overworked because his kitchen really ran more efficiently with 6 people in it, but he couldn't afford it. The only alternative would have been to raise prices, which would have stymied business and been bad for the restaurant.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Lower taxes cause economic growth, which causes higher revenues in the long run.

Sweden has some of the highest taxes in the world (it not THE highest, 30% higher than the US!), and from 1979 up until 2008, Sweden and the US has had roughly the same economic growth, give or take a few percent. From 1995 and onward, we've had higher economic growth than the US. This with twice as high taxes!

 

Source: http://www.newsmill.se/artikel/2009/09/27/...t-hogre-skatter

 

The source is in Swedish, as I couldn't find the English original (International Comparisons of GDP per capita and per employed person. 17 countries, 1960-2008. U.S Department of Labor Statistics. Division of International Labor Comparisons. July 28, 2009).

 

Translated from the article:

 

"Lower taxes in the United States gives the same growth as high taxes in Sweden. Higher taxes in Sweden gives the same growth as in the United States. The difference is that Sweden is a welfare State, where all citizens are relatively economically and socially secure, while the U.S. is the social divides country, including nearly 40 million poor and near 4 million homeless."

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/Fo...abor/flsgdp.txt

 

Here's the English original. Taxes aren't the only factor in economic growth. No doubt our economy has been mismanaged over the years. Sweden also doesn't have to deal with the same social problems as us, or the huge drain of our military budget.

 

Edit: Just noticed those GDP numbers are per capita, no wonder they seem low. Ours would be skewed by higher population growth, higher percentage of children, and influx of low earning immigrants.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gfted1]

...from 1979 up until 2008, Sweden and the US has had roughly the same economic growth, give or take a few percent. From 1995 and onward, we've had higher economic growth than the US...

 

 

Does not compute. How can it be the same growth up to 2008 while at the same time, claim Sweden has higher growth from 1995 onward?

[mkreku]

...from 1979 up until 2008, Sweden and the US has had roughly the same economic growth, give or take a few percent. From 1995 and onward, we've had higher economic growth than the US...

Does not compute. How can it be the same growth up to 2008 while at the same time, claim Sweden has higher growth from 1995 onward?

We had lower growth from 1979 up until 1994, and from 1995 to 2008 we had higher. It evens out over the entire time period.

[Killian Kalthorne]

This is why we need to have immigration reform that targets employers who hire illegals and landlords who rent to them. For each illegal they should be fined $50000, and prison time if they knowingly hired or rented to an illegal. Make it too economically risky for companies to hire illegals, and criminally accountable.

 

Yeah, I already posted links to articles about the economic feasibility of all this folks. I guess crazy talk with no basis in reality is more entertaining. Enjoy.

 

Illegal immigration is one of the major problems this country has. These people have no respect for our laws, otherwise they would not be here illegally. They, and those who cater to them, must be criminally held accountable. It is not a problem we should turn a blind eye on. We can't just do nothing and giving amnesty to criminals is right out.

[Gorgon]

You know we have a word for broad negative generalizations about a specific group of people. If you want to stop illegal immigration make the borders more secure, don't blame people for trying to find opportunity wherever they can.

[Rosbjerg]

Also kinda funny how your entire country is build around mass immigration and how you, as one of the only countries in the world, has managed to make that something extremely positive. Something I would be very proud of if I was american. It's kinda sad to see that the 10th+ generation of immigrants won't allow others to do what their ancestors did.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I am all for making the borders more secure.

 

This is what I would like to see done: First, close down all foreign military bases across the world and bring every soldier home. We then line, both north and south, a series of military bases which we will place the military to make sure the borders are secure. Second, create a set of laws that will hold employers and landlords criminally liable for hiring and renting to illegal aliens. Also have those who are in this country, regardless of age, illegal criminal responsible which they can face prison time prior to deportation. Third, go over our immigration policies and make them fairer for all those who seek to enter this country legally. Make country of origin be considered moot. It wouldn't matter if the person comes from Mexico or Canada, Sweden or Japan, they would be treated the same. No playing favorites.

[Gfted1]

You know we have a word for broad negative generalizations about a specific group of people. If you want to stop illegal immigration make the borders more secure, don't blame people for trying to find opportunity wherever they can.

 

 

What about his post is a "broad negative generalization"?

 

Also kinda funny how your entire country is build around mass immigration and how you, as one of the only countries in the world, has managed to make that something extremely positive. Something I would be very proud of if I was american. It's kinda sad to see that the 10th+ generation of immigrants won't allow others to do what their ancestors did.

 

 

You mean all the immigrants that legally entered through Ellis Island? No, must be some other mass immigration that better compares to the illegal immigration we have today. Do tell.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Also kinda funny how your entire country is build around mass immigration and how you, as one of the only countries in the world, has managed to make that something extremely positive. Something I would be very proud of if I was american. It's kinda sad to see that the 10th+ generation of immigrants won't allow others to do what their ancestors did.

 

I am all for LEGAL immigration and believe that we should have our laws amended to make LEGAL immigration fairer for all. I am also for making penalties for ILLEGAL immigration harsher. My ancestors came into this country LEGALLY. The Law is the Law and no one is above the Law.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Also kinda funny how your entire country is build around mass immigration and how you, as one of the only countries in the world, has managed to make that something extremely positive. Something I would be very proud of if I was american. It's kinda sad to see that the 10th+ generation of immigrants won't allow others to do what their ancestors did.

Pretty sure my ancestors didn't sneak across the border illegally, refuse to learn the language and become burdens to the country. That is an insult to any family, hispanic or otherwise that came here legally to make something of themseves.

 

You know we have a word for broad negative generalizations about a specific group of people. If you want to stop illegal immigration make the borders more secure, don't blame people for trying to find opportunity wherever they can.

That is kind of like saying don't blame a rapist for breaking into a girls bedroom when her parents weren't home. The opportunity presented itself. Also, since when did illegal immigrants become a race to be bigoted against? That's also like saying don't speak ill of murderers... its bigotry.

Edited October 6, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat

[vault_overseer]

I am all for LEGAL immigration and believe that we should have our laws amended to make LEGAL immigration fairer for all. I am also for making penalties for ILLEGAL immigration harsher. My ancestors came into this country LEGALLY. The Law is the Law and no one is above the Law.

 

So you never speed, pirate music/movies/games?

Edited October 6, 2009 by vault_overseer

[GreasyDogMeat]

So you never speed, pirate music/movies/games?

While I think Killian is a bit overzealous with the "I AM THE LAW" bit, this is a very poor counter argument if you are somehow defending illegal aliens. What happens if too many people pirate from a certain company? No more company. What happens if too many illegal aliens choke the system...

[vault_overseer]

So you never speed, pirate music/movies/games?

While I think Killian is a bit overzealous with the "I AM THE LAW" bit, this is a very poor counter argument if you are somehow defending illegal aliens. What happens if too many people pirate from a certain company? No more company. What happens if too many illegal aliens choke the system...

I'm not defending illegal aliens in this comment(even though I have written one that did, but decided not to post it), I was really commenting "The Law is the Law and no one is above the Law." nonsense.

[GreasyDogMeat]

So you never speed, pirate music/movies/games?

While I think Killian is a bit overzealous with the "I AM THE LAW" bit, this is a very poor counter argument if you are somehow defending illegal aliens. What happens if too many people pirate from a certain company? No more company. What happens if too many illegal aliens choke the system...

I'm not defending illegal aliens in this comment(even though I have written one that did, but decided not to post it), I was really commenting "The Law is the Law and no one is above the Law." nonsense.

Ah... well, no argument from me.

[213374U]

Stop defending child rape!

[GreasyDogMeat]

I guess that Polanski thread got to me...

[Hurlshort]

The frustrating part of Hade's logic is that it would cripple our economy. It is a classic case of cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

 

Also the complaints about illegal immigrants not learning language are a slippery slope.

 

1. Many early immigrants to the US, ones that went through Ellis Island, did not learn English. It is not an official language. My great grandmother spoke Italian and lived in the US for 40 years. It takes generations to change that. If you want to change it, then education has to be better.

 

2. Immigration has changed dramatically since the 1800's. We turn people away. Your relatives came over on a boat and were processed for citizenship. That is not an option today. The only people we accept easily today are well educated folks who have a good shot at getting a job. While that is logical, it is vastly different than what happened on Ellis Island.

 

3. California used to be part of Mexico. I'm proud of California History and do not feel the need to trod upon other cultures that make it such a great state.

[Kelverin]

The frustrating part of Hade's logic is that it would cripple our economy.

No it would not, rich people who use slaves erm illegal works would just have to live on a little less money.