First failed state?

[Kelverin]

Are we arguing that illegal immigration is the problem in California?

There is no argument, it's a problem, period end of story if you don't think it is well good on you but it's a huge issue.

[Killian Kalthorne]

It is also a big drain to our economy due to all the crap that goes on there. We lose more money off of California than what we make.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[alanschu]

Are we arguing that illegal immigration is the problem in California?

There is no argument, it's a problem, period end of story if you don't think it is well good on you but it's a huge issue.

 

 

Though hasn't it always been a problem? Or has it gotten worse?

[Kelverin]

Are we arguing that illegal immigration is the problem in California?

There is no argument, it's a problem, period end of story if you don't think it is well good on you but it's a huge issue.

 

 

Though hasn't it always been a problem? Or has it gotten worse?

You tell me, workers taking jobs from American citizens, and NOT paying taxes, the rising health care costs, unemployment rate.... they are all linked no? Seems like a problem to me. Of course it's magnified during tough economic times.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Kelverin

[alanschu]

You tell me, workers taking jobs from American citizens, and NOT paying taxes, the rising health care costs, unemployment rate.... they are all linked no?

 

I asked you because I did not know.

 

 

Of course it's magnified during tough economic times.

 

This isn't the first recession California has ever had though. Is it increasing the unemployment rate because businesses have decided to hire illegal immigrants instead of citizens?

 

The rising health care costs I can see, as you even supplied a link for it talking about providing health care for illegal immigrants.

[Kelverin]

This isn't the first recession California has ever had though. Is it increasing the unemployment rate because businesses have decided to hire illegal immigrants instead of citizens?

No but the number of illegals here are much higher than they were then. I believe so, it's funny go to a home depot or other such areas in California and there are groups sometimes up to 50 illegals hanging around waiting for work - Moving, construction...... it's an issue to be sure. Hell I run a cleaning company and the competition is fierce, illegals will work 10 hours and get paid 50.00 cash I can't compete because of the minimum wage and these are just a few small samples of the issue. They should just make em legal and be done with it, that might just cut expenses and raise income from taxes to help us out of this mess. Also as stated earlier the government and how they do business is a big problem as well that needs to be addressed.

[Hurlshort]

You tell me, workers taking jobs from American citizens, and NOT paying taxes, the rising health care costs, unemployment rate.... they are all linked no? Seems like a problem to me. Of course it's magnified during tough economic times.

 

American citizens prefer to live off welfare then do the jobs that illegal immigrants do.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Are we arguing that illegal immigration is the problem in California? Because it's been an issue for a hundred years, so I'm not sure how it suddenly is causing the toppling of CA's economy. The fact that construction and agriculture industries rely on illegal immigration heavily cancel out any of the negatives.

It's come to a tipping point.

California is very badly run, we have a serious issue with the politicians in our state.

Who doesn't?

Despite that, I'm not fleeing for the hills, there are still quite a few success stories in California. My family runs a truck company, and we have actually turned the corner after coming dangerously close to bankruptcy in the last year. We are now getting regular work, we are slowly rebuilding our fleet, and the debt collectors have been working with us to keep our business running. We haul sand and gravel and there are quite a few new construction jobs coming down the pipeline, which is very good for the economy.

 

Also, home prices have stabilized in a lot of areas.

I have no doubt California will pull out of this unless the national economy collapses. I expect the slow decline to continue though. Edited October 6, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[alanschu]

Do Illegal immigrants still count towards the unemployment rate?

 

 

Also as stated earlier the government and how they do business is a big problem as well that needs to be addressed.

 

This I can definitely agree with. For example, I loathe minimum wage laws, and based on your post, it sounds like they are negatively affecting you and others because illegals can undercut it.

[Kelverin]

You tell me, workers taking jobs from American citizens, and NOT paying taxes, the rising health care costs, unemployment rate.... they are all linked no? Seems like a problem to me. Of course it's magnified during tough economic times.

 

American citizens prefer to live off welfare then do the jobs that illegal immigrants do.

And you know this how? Interviewed all American citizens? Those jobs seem to get done in other states by US citizens why not in CA?

Edited October 6, 2009 by Kelverin

[Hurlshort]

I just think going after illegal immigration is avoiding the real issue here. As I said, illegal immigration has been a hot topic for quite a while, and I'd like to see numbers backing up the claim that there are a lot more illegals in CA than there were in the 80's. (I did some research, the number is at about 3 million and its been stable since 1984.) My guess as to why you are seeing more folks lined up at Home Depot is that there isn't as much work available as there used to be.

 

The real issue is terrible management on many different levels. CA still has a very impressive GNP, but there is just a ton of waste out there.

[Kelverin]

Is illegal immigration worsening California's budget woes?

July 9, 2009 | 7:44 pm

 

Fixingcalifornia

 

Many readers who have offered comments about California's budget crisis have urged officials to look at the effect of illegal immigration on the deficit.

 

The Times' Teresa Watanabe and Anna Gorman decided to look into the question. Here are some findings:

 

--State welfare officials estimate that cutting off welfare payments to illegal immigrants for their U.S.-born children could save about $640 million annually if it survives legal challenges.

 

--California has roughly 2.7 million illegal residents, about 7% of the state

[213374U]

They should just make em legal and be done with it, that might just cut expenses and raise income from taxes to help us out of this mess.

I wouldn't recommend that. We tried a few years back, and it had the effect of massively encouraging further immigration. And now that the construction sector has collapsed, we have a huge surplus of unqualified workers draining on the unemployment compensation system. I know the situation isn't the same, but still.

 

 

Do Illegal immigrants still count towards the unemployment rate?

According to BLS, unemployment rate calculations work from unemployment insurance statistics, so I'd say they don't. Makes sense, too.

[Kelverin]

I just think going after illegal immigration is avoiding the real issue here. As I said, illegal immigration has been a hot topic for quite a while, and I'd like to see numbers backing up the claim that there are a lot more illegals in CA than there were in the 80's. (I did some research, the number is at about 3 million and its been stable since 1984.) My guess as to why you are seeing more folks lined up at Home Depot is that there isn't as much work available as there used to be.

 

The real issue is terrible management on many different levels. CA still has a very impressive GNP, but there is just a ton of waste out there.

Your right about the numbers, I was incorrect. But hiring illegals to do work at the home depot (example) takes jobs away from US citizens, that's a fact and to blame citizens for wanting an honest salary for an honest days work misses the point.

 

They should just make em legal and be done with it, that might just cut expenses and raise income from taxes to help us out of this mess.

I wouldn't recommend that. We tried a few years back, and it had the effect of massively encouraging further immigration. And now that the construction sector has collapsed, we have a huge surplus of unqualified workers draining on the unemployment compensation system. I know the situation isn't the same, but still.

I was joking, there is no easy solution to this mess.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Kelverin

[Hurlshort]

And you know this how? Interviewed all American citizens? Those jobs seem to get done in other states by US citizens why not in CA?

 

There is actually a non-profit that gathers all this information. Here's a little tidbit:

 

If immigration reduces wages for less

educated workers, these wages do not vanish into thin air. Employers now have more money

either to pay higher wages to more educated workers or to retain as higher profits. The National

Research Council, in a 1997 study entitled "The New Americans," estimated that immigration

reduced the wages of workers with less than a high school degree by about 5 percent. These

workers roughly correspond to the poorest 10 percent of the workforce. But this reduction

caused gains for the other 90 percent of workers equal to one or two tenths of one percent of

their wages. The impact on educated workers is so small because workers at the bottom end of

the labor market earn such low wages that even a significant decline in their wages only

generates very modest gains for everyone else.

 

http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/sactestimony050907.pdf

 

http://www.cis.org/aboutcis.html is the main page. They talk about the costs of illegal immigration, and yes, it does add to the deficit. But it is much less severe than many people make it out to be, and the solutions are not as simple as simply closing the borders.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why exactly is closing borders not a solution? Also the economic effects of illegal immigration are debatable, but the effect on crime is not, you also have to consider the political implications, hence my comment about 20% poverty rate. Basically we're letting Mexico shift their poverty problem to us, which in turn causes problems in our society, including but not limited to economic problems.

 

Edit: The reason it's the same as 1984 is probably because a lot of them got legalized in 1986. Not coincidentally, California became a Democrat controlled state soon afterward, and the decline began.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[kirottu]

I blame Sega.

[alanschu]

According to BLS, unemployment rate calculations work from unemployment insurance statistics, so I'd say they don't. Makes sense, too.

 

 

Yeah that's what I'd expect.

[CoM_Solaufein]

My state is the highest state in unemployment at 14.1%. That's what happens when you rely too much on manufacturing and automotive.

[Enoch]

Why exactly is closing borders not a solution? Also the economic effects of illegal immigration are debatable, but the effect on crime is not, you also have to consider the political implications, hence my comment about 20% poverty rate. Basically we're letting Mexico shift their poverty problem to us, which in turn causes problems in our society, including but not limited to economic problems.

 

Edit: The reason it's the same as 1984 is probably because a lot of them got legalized in 1986. Not coincidentally, Califonia became a Democrat controlled state soon afterward, and the decline began.

Costs required to effectively "close the border" > benefits of said closure.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The benefits would be huge, I don't want to become part of Mexico.

 

Sorry for the right wing link: http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/...rapeutic-style/

[Hurlshort]

Why exactly is closing borders not a solution?

 

Because it would cause an economic collapse. Just the agriculture industry alone would be devastated, which means grocery store prices would soar. It would be quite messy.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Oh, but it's OK to have minimum wage laws, and then exploit the people who can't complain about it? Also I'm not advocating immediately deporting everyone, only stopping new illegal immigration.

[Hurlshort]

But then you have a problem with seasonal workers, which is a major part of the ag industry.

 

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, there are a lot of changes I would like to see made, but closing up shop is not one of them.

[alanschu]

But hiring illegals to do work at the home depot (example) takes jobs away from US citizens, that's a fact and to blame citizens for wanting an honest salary for an honest days work misses the point.

 

I'll concede that illegals can take jobs away from US citizens, though IMO that's more through the minimum wage law. I'd find the issue less of an issue if both could compete on the same level for wages.