There is no free speech in Finland

[213374U]

Being wrong (in the context of the collective state) is the definition of crime, surely? And while I have no option but to accept that intellectually there are no illegitimate ideas, wanting to force - for example - all coloured people into death camps is something I'm comfortable defining as illegitimate. Call me reactionary and take away my monocle.

Putting people in death camps IS illegitimate... as it's against any number of laws both local and international. But that's an act, not an idea. The idea is "all black people must die". If suppression is the first (and best) way of dealing with that sort of crap in a society that prides itself in its "freedom"... well, I can only shake my head in shame.

 

Being wrong in any context, by itself, cannot be a crime. Acting on those wrong beliefs or ideas may be.

 

 

Strictly speaking, yes, if you took away oxygen completely you wouldn't have any fire. That's a win. But I'm not arguing for the total elimination of all ideas. I'm arguing for the removal of ideas oriented on a specific goal - inducing hate. This strikes me as no more absurd as removing arms from people fire them in the direction of people.

Yeah, ok. What's hate? What is conducive to hate? If hate is a byproduct of simply exposing facts, is that propaganda and must be eliminated as well? And most importantly, who are we going to trust with the responsibility of safeguarding our intellectual hygiene?

 

Easier said than done man, and the potential for abuse is far in excess of the advantages it may bring.

[Walsingham]

posit A: The concept of extremist violence is just one part of the acts of violence, but it is the precursor to violence just as building a bomb is the precursor to exploding it

 

posit B: Identifying and prosecuting any precursor is fraught with dangers. If you had been following any of the counter-terror trials in the last few years you would know that. The defendants ALWAYS claimed that the components and activity had other purposes, scientific research or theatre for example. How exactly does that differ in your view from someone who says they write hate for satirical effect?

 

posit C: Unless one aims to disrupt the precusors of violence we can only hope to mitigate the effects of violence, and 'freedom' can't bring back the dead or crippled

 

Now I fully accept you may have a different metric for your decision, but the way I add up the costs and benefits, having seen first hand the results of ethnic cleansing and racism, is that a few comedians can make 'knock knock' jokes instead.

[213374U]

No. The precursor to extremist violence is a mixture of ignorance and poverty. How come that we generally frown upon these hate groups here in the West? How can it be that we have no Hamas or Khmer Rouge around? Why is it that it's always the moderates that make up the majorities in developed countries? Nobody in their right mind wants to go on a killing spree if they have more to lose than they stand to gain - regardless of the quality of the propaganda they are being showered with.

 

Even if I were to accept your reasoning that writing a hateful speech (again, what IS hate?) is the same as building a bomb, you are starting to fall into your own traps. I'm going to turn your argument around: you feel it's right to eliminate propaganda, but you have assimilated satirical works that can be construed as "hate speech" to, in your own words, scientific research. So, if you want to suppress one, don't you have to suppress the other as well? After all, chemistry "is the precursor" to building bombs, too.

 

You are right, freedom can't bring back the dead or crippled, but neither can repression. And while you may have witnessed first-hand the effects of hate running rampant, I think we all know how states that seek to place security above things like free speech end up.

Edited September 10, 2009 by 213374U

[Walsingham]

um... you REALLY don't pay much attention to terror trials, do you? I'm genuinely smiling because if you had you'd have seen how few extremist terrorists come from genuinely impoverished backgrounds. It's not a requirement at all. If you really want a committed extremist you grab some middle-class inadequate and pump him full of confusing philosophy and pseudo-science.

[213374U]

Yeah, I don't pay much attention to terror trials and you don't pay much attention to the posts you're replying to. We all have our failings, I suppose.

 

You can smile to your heart's content, but you simply cannot deny the link between poverty and violence. The Hutu-Tutsi conflict? Nah, couldn't be. Somalia? Nope, not that one either. Afghanistan? Not likely. Of course, that's not to say that ALL violence MUST stem from poverty, as the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia show. But that's not what I said, is it? You said in some other thread that you had learned about straw men in these boards, so I can only assume you are being intellectually dishonest when you set that one up.

 

At any rate, I said it's a combination of poverty and ignorance. The second part, you conveniently ignored. But you bring to the spotlight another interesting aspect: social inadequacy. Yeah, those guys can be pretty dangerous... but then again, school shooters are in most cases social misfits, and in their case, many things are blamed - video games chief among them. So, do we ban video games too, Wals? I said "nobody in their right mind" - that's where these people fit. And all you can come up with as a counterexample are a few terror trials. If only that was ALL the violence.

[Walsingham]

Hah ha! Nice one with the video games point. I'll have to consider it. But rather than deny you the chance to trip me up I'll say that my first reaction is that in cases where video games have been involved they're just part of the propaganda mix. Like ball-bearings in the suicide vest.

 

Incidentally, you really ought to read more about these trials. You clearly find the issues at stake interesting.

[213374U]

But rather than deny you the chance to trip me up I'll say that my first reaction is that in cases where video games have been involved they're just part of the propaganda mix. Like ball-bearings in the suicide vest.

Ouch. Well, then I guess that after this whole exchange, we haven't progressed much. We don't even have a common ground on basic elements of the topic such as "propaganda" and "hate". I mean, I hate our current prez, but for a wide variety of reasons, I don't think I'd pull the trigger - even assuming I had the balls to do so.

 

 

Incidentally, you really ought to read more about these trials. You clearly find the issues at stake interesting.

Well, since you brought it up, where do I begin?

[Walsingham]

But rather than deny you the chance to trip me up I'll say that my first reaction is that in cases where video games have been involved they're just part of the propaganda mix. Like ball-bearings in the suicide vest.

Ouch. Well, then I guess that after this whole exchange, we haven't progressed much. We don't even have a common ground on basic elements of the topic such as "propaganda" and "hate". I mean, I hate our current prez, but for a wide variety of reasons, I don't think I'd pull the trigger - even assuming I had the balls to do so.

 

 

Maybe you just have sensitive hands? I think you may be being overly pessimistic. We've been attempting to tackle one another's points without deliberate evasion. I'd say that was a win on its own.

 

Incidentally, you really ought to read more about these trials. You clearly find the issues at stake interesting.

Well, since you brought it up, where do I begin?

 

 

Two teenagers arrested in advance of plot to bomb school

 

Man arrested in advance for plot to 'destroy foreigners'

 

School boy arrested for plotting terrror in the name of Islam.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Hope they fix the laws

To be honest, it's not the laws. It's the people.

 

We really need to deal with this cultural self-loathing bull**** that's so trendy nowadays in the West. When even the French are measured in their chauvinism, you know there's definitely something wrong.

 

Yes. Everyone equates tolerance with shoveling sh!t on ones own head these days.

 

Political correctness is a sort of censorship that outdoes the Nazis at their best.

 

So irritating.

[RPGmasterBoo]

You can smile to your heart's content, but you simply cannot deny the link between poverty and violence. The Hutu-Tutsi conflict? Nah, couldn't be. Somalia? Nope, not that one either. Afghanistan? Not likely. Of course, that's not to say that ALL violence MUST stem from poverty, as the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia show. But that's not what I said, is it? You said in some other thread that you had learned about straw men in these boards, so I can only assume you are being intellectually dishonest when you set that one up.

 

Poverty and an economic disaster were instrumental in setting off the confilcts in these parts.

Edited September 14, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Humodour]

Hope they fix the laws

To be honest, it's not the laws. It's the people.

 

We really need to deal with this cultural self-loathing bull**** that's so trendy nowadays in the West. When even the French are measured in their chauvinism, you know there's definitely something wrong.

 

Yes. Everyone equates tolerance with shoveling sh!t on ones own head these days.

 

Political correctness is a sort of censorship that outdoes the Nazis at their best.

 

So irritating.

 

Maybe you should've been there when the Nazis were exterminating and justifying the extermination of people they thought were impure - so that you could understand the naive stupidity of your statement.

[Hell Kitty]

Political Correctness Gone Mad!

[RPGmasterBoo]

del

Edited September 14, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[RPGmasterBoo]

Hope they fix the laws

To be honest, it's not the laws. It's the people.

 

We really need to deal with this cultural self-loathing bull**** that's so trendy nowadays in the West. When even the French are measured in their chauvinism, you know there's definitely something wrong.

 

Yes. Everyone equates tolerance with shoveling sh!t on ones own head these days.

 

Political correctness is a sort of censorship that outdoes the Nazis at their best.

 

So irritating.

 

Maybe you should've been there when the Nazis were exterminating and justifying the extermination of people they thought were impure - so that you could understand the naive stupidity of your statement.

 

The stupidity of your argument is the failure to realise that the topic is censorship, not concentration camps. Since the Croatian nazis killed almost a million of my people, and set up a novelty even by German standards - concentration camps exclusively for children, here's the wiki for those with the stomach for it > ( Stara gradiska) I could hardy justify them. Switch your brain on before writing ignorant posts.

Edited September 14, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Man, the Balkans was just a whole peninsula of fun, wasn't it? Our one puny little concentration camp didn't hold a candle to that.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

I sure hope that was a joke even though its in extremely bad taste.

 

The casualties of the 90's Balkan wars were roughly a total of 70.000 people on all sides over almost a decade of instability. Jasenovac WWII concentration camp all by itself had around 300.000 but perhaprs as many as 700.000 victims in the 4 years of its operation.

 

So not only is what you said borderline insulting its also completely incorrect.

Edited September 14, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Nah, I just prefer to not take things too seriously on the internet. My comment was obviously sarcastic.

 

People always find something to get offended by.

[213374U]

Thanks for the links, Wals. Not sure I'd dub those "terror" trials. More like ****-for-brains trials, tbh.

 

 

Poverty and an economic disaster were instrumental in setting off the confilcts in these parts.

I stand corrected. I had to take a look to realize how bad it was.

 

 

People always find something to get offended by.

That's part of the charm of the internets. Edited September 15, 2009 by 213374U

[Walsingham]

Thanks for the links, Wals. Not sure I'd dub those "terror" trials. More like ****-for-brains trials, tbh.

 

I'm biased, but generally my impression is that you'll find terrorists do have ****-for-brains. If you examine the supporting logic you tend to wind up scratching your head in bemused wonderment. But it sells, there's no doubt about that. I have a Che Guevara t-shirt that everyone thinks is awesome. It has shiny stitched on lettering.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I heard on the radio the reason people in the North countries suffer from depression is because there's not enough sun and thus they suffer from a vitamin D deficiency. So if you take a vitamin D supplement you'll feel better.

[Morgoth]

Alternatively drink some more ale.

[Humodour]

I heard on the radio the reason people in the North countries suffer from depression is because there's not enough sun and thus they suffer from a vitamin D deficiency. So if you take a vitamin D supplement you'll feel better.

 

I dunno if vitamin D is the cause, but yeah, seasonal variation does show some correlation with mental stability (aka mood, I guess). Interesting stuff.

 

Hope they fix the laws

To be honest, it's not the laws. It's the people.

 

We really need to deal with this cultural self-loathing bull**** that's so trendy nowadays in the West. When even the French are measured in their chauvinism, you know there's definitely something wrong.

 

Yes. Everyone equates tolerance with shoveling sh!t on ones own head these days.

 

Political correctness is a sort of censorship that outdoes the Nazis at their best.

 

So irritating.

 

Maybe you should've been there when the Nazis were exterminating and justifying the extermination of people they thought were impure - so that you could understand the naive stupidity of your statement.

 

The stupidity of your argument is the failure to realise that the topic is censorship, not concentration camps. Since the Croatian nazis killed almost a million of my people, and set up a novelty even by German standards - concentration camps exclusively for children, here's the wiki for those with the stomach for it > ( Stara gradiska) I could hardy justify them. Switch your brain on before writing ignorant posts.

 

You're saying that political correctness and the damage it causes is worse than Nazi propaganda and the damage it caused.

 

Jesus ****ing Christ listen to yourself before posting.

[Maria Caliban]

Now, this satirist wants to test this self-hatred within the realms of free speech. On his personal blog on the internet, he states the following (roughly translated):

 

"If Finnish men are genetically positioned to fail in life, get drunk, get into knife-fights and finally killing their families, then by the same terms, are Somalian men genetically positioned to commit rape on women, theft and never be interested to actually work? Finally, by following the previous terms: Is the religion of Islam based on worshipping a man who should considered to be a pedophile by todays standards?"

 

The satirist, Jussi Halla-aho, was today convicted on disturbing the religious worship against a religious group: The Muslims, and for defamation against a group of people: the Somalis. No conviction was made for his views on "finnish" people. Remember, no Somali or Muslim did actually accuse him for anything. It was the local state authorities themselves.

 

Unbelievable.

 

 

To clarify, he used this statement of genetic predisposition to show the hypocrisy in the current political climate. He succeeded.

 

It strikes me a bad satire as it assumes a person talking about their own group is the same as someone talking about a group they're not part of. It's a bit like that one guy from Seinfeld who used the term **** to parody a racist remark by a different comedian; he caught heat for it because no matter how he tries to frame the joke, he

Edited September 20, 2009 by Gorth
It's that word filter thing... yes, them words.

[Maria Caliban]

No, there should not. Why should some opinions be censored? If I hate Jews, why do I have to hide myself? Aren't there safeguards in place to prevent hate speech from becoming hate crimes? Or does censoring hateful opinions somehow solve the problem (of hate)?

 

What good is censorship, anyway?

Okay. One-third of all teenagers who commit suicide are gay, but gays make up at most 10% of the teenage population. If you were a teacher at a high school, would you let your students call a gay student a ****, or talk about how homosexuals are unnatural and will burn in hell?

 

I believe in free speech. I also believe that people have a right to a living environment where they

[Gorgon]

Free speech is great, it lets you distinguish idiots from the rest of society in no uncertain terms. A much greater benefit on the whole than the divisions that can be created with hate language.

 

It should be theoretically possible for a white person to use the word **** for comic relief, I can't think of any instances where it actually was funny, but everything is circumstance, the words themselves aren't evil, it's the intent behind them that is important.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Gorgon