Taipei, Taiwan

[Nigel]

I can't think of a recent spy game in which being in exotic locations was not part of the game. Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid, No One Lives Forever, Syphon Filter etc were all about exotic locales.

 

But were any of those games really an accurate representation of the cities that were depicted. The Japan level in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory seemed like a standard Japanese level to me.

I listed those games to point out that tourism is an important aspect of the spy genre, not that they are realistic representations of their respective locations.

 

I think you're overstating how realistic Obsidian was claiming this game would be.

"When I was told we were making a realistic RPG set in a real world setting, I wanted to try to nail reality as hard as possible."- Aaron Meyers, Lead Artist Obsidian Entertainment

 

"Our use of exploration of real world spaces is intriguing for the player because they're actually exploring spaces they've actually gone through in the real world..." - Chris Avellone, Creative Director Obsidian Entertainment

 

Those are pretty bold claims. Just what am I overstating here? When a developer says things like that, they create a certain expectation of their game. What I have seen so far does not live up to that expectation. Does it look fun? Sure. Interesting? Definitely. Real? No.

[alanschu]

When I hear Aaron's comment, I get the impression that the environments are realistic in that there's nothing stopping the environments from existing in real life. Not that the locations will be full on recreations of the locations.

 

 

How old is the Avellone quote?

 

I know the original plans for the game was to make an ultra realistic game, but they came to the conclusion that that wasn't very much fun, and the changed some aspects (especially the characters). However, I see nothing in the Taipei shots that make me go "Wait....this isn't Taipei!"

 

I listed those games to point out that tourism is an important aspect of the spy genre, not that they are realistic representations of their respective locations.

 

So as long as the people playing believe their in Taipei?? The problem here is that I doubt many people really know what Taipei looks like.

Edited July 8, 2009 by alanschu

[Nigel]

When I hear Aaron's comment, I get the impression that the environments are realistic in that there's nothing stopping the environments from existing in real life. Not that the locations will be full on recreations of the locations.

 

 

How old is the Avellone quote?

Does it matter how old the quote is? I don't know, it's in one of the developer videos. Is it so hard to simply accept Obsidian has said they're shooting for realism with this game?

 

Like I said before, I'm not looking for full on recreations, in fact such exacting recreations more often than not fail to convey an authentic feel of a place. I'm simply looking for something that 'feels' like Taipei, Rome etc. Neither GTAIV nor Max Payne has full on recreations of New York City, but they both have representations that feel like New York despite having very different design goals. The Liberty City of GTAIV is a sarcastic open world environment while Max Payne's New York is broken into moody levels that only exist at night. If you've never been to New York or seen it on TV the fidelity of these environments will escape you, but the attention to detail will not.

 

There's a level of degree to consider as well. I think I had the same reaction to the Taipei shots that RevolverXT did, which was, "That is sooo NOT Taipei!!!" We're talking not even close. They just feel wrong. All they really needed to do is achieve a level of detail where someone like me would think, "Yeah, I can see that being Taipei," and this thread wouldn't have even existed. Instead, what they've shown is so far off the mark that I think RevolverXT has brought up a valid point.

[Oner]

Does it matter how old the quote is? I don't know, it's in one of the developer videos. Is it so hard to simply accept Obsidian has said they're shooting for realism with this game?

Read alanschu's post again.

[Nigel]

Does it matter how old the quote is? I don't know, it's in one of the developer videos. Is it so hard to simply accept Obsidian has said they're shooting for realism with this game?

Read alanschu's post again.

Check out the most recent developer diary. Then read my posts thoroughly.

[Oner]

Does it matter how old the quote is? I don't know, it's in one of the developer videos. Is it so hard to simply accept Obsidian has said they're shooting for realism with this game?

Read alanschu's post again.

Check out the most recent developer diary. Then read my posts thoroughly.

You miss the point on purpose?

 

Alanschu said why it matters. Because the devs could've changed their mind later. You still asked why it matters. I answered you. Did I say I disagree with you? No.

[Nigel]

You miss the point on purpose?

 

Alanschu said why it matters. Because the devs could've changed their mind later. You still asked why it matters. I answered you. Did I say I disagree with you? No.

They *could* have changed their minds, but as recently as the latest developer diary they haven't, making the date of the second quote irrelevant because it is consistent with the latest comments on the game. Therefore it doesn't matter when it was said, get it?

[Oner]

I give up. -.-

[alanschu]

When I hear Aaron's comment, I get the impression that the environments are realistic in that there's nothing stopping the environments from existing in real life. Not that the locations will be full on recreations of the locations.

 

 

How old is the Avellone quote?

Does it matter how old the quote is? I don't know, it's in one of the developer videos. Is it so hard to simply accept Obsidian has said they're shooting for realism with this game?

 

It does matter how old the quote is if it happened before they mentioned they were pulling back on some of the realistic aspects of the game.

 

By the same account, is it so hard to simply accept that Obsidian's definition of realism doesn't mesh with yours?

 

You miss the point on purpose?

 

Alanschu said why it matters. Because the devs could've changed their mind later. You still asked why it matters. I answered you. Did I say I disagree with you? No.

They *could* have changed their minds, but as recently as the latest developer diary they haven't, making the date of the second quote irrelevant because it is consistent with the latest comments on the game. Therefore it doesn't matter when it was said, get it?

 

Well, like I said, when I heard Aaron's comments, I took it as realistic environments in that these are plausible environments that seem like they could really exist. In no way did I think that it means that Taipei is going to be anything more than an "Asian" city because, unfortunately, I am absolutely in no way capable of making this type of assessment. Personally I think it's confirmation bias (interpreting the comment the way you want to interpret it), but who knows?

 

 

Regardless, this is all arguing in circles. I doubt they're going to recreate art assets with the release date coming up so quickly. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if their in a content lockdown now.

 

If, based on the small snippet you saw of Taipei in the video, you don't think the game's attention to detail for the locations is sufficient enough for you, then I'd suggest taking a pass on the game. If there are other aspects of the game that you think will offset this, then give the game a shot.

Edited July 9, 2009 by alanschu

[Darth InSidious]

" O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend

The brightest heaven of invention,

A kingdom for a stage, princes to act

And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!

Then should the warlike Harry, like himself,

Assume the port of Mars and at his heels,

Leash'd in like hounds, should famine, sword and fire

Crouch for employment. But pardon, and gentles all,

The flat unraised spirits that have dared

On this unworthy scaffold to bring forth

So great an object: can this c0ckpit hold

The vasty fields of France? or may we cram

Within this wooden O the very casques

That did affright the air at Agincourt?

O, pardon! since a crooked figure may

Attest in little place a million;

And let us, ciphers to this great accompt,

On your imaginary forces work.

Suppose within the girdle of these walls

Are now confined two mighty monarchies,

Whose high upreared and abutting fronts

The perilous narrow ocean parts asunder:

Piece out our imperfections with your thoughts;

Into a thousand parts divide on man,

And make imaginary puissance;

Think when we talk of horses, that you see them

Printing their proud hoofs i' the receiving earth;

For 'tis your thoughts that now must deck our kings,

Carry them here and there; jumping o'er times,

Turning the accomplishment of many years

Into an hour-glass: for the which supply,

Admit me Chorus to this history;

Who prologue-like your humble patience pray,

Gently to hear, kindly to judge, our play. "

-Prologue, Henry V

Edited July 9, 2009 by Darth InSidious

[Sannom]

How old is the Avellone quote?

 

Not very old I think. But the video accompanying it just presented you with a generic combat level, so I never took it seriously. There is a lot of things I don't take seriously from interviews, I'm kind of a pessimistic who still enjoys his "new" games For example, it seems to me that people are buying themselves a big deception if they think every dialog in the game will change the game dramatically. This is too big of a claim to be true. I expect something more on the level of The Witcher.

[alanschu]

I won't dispute that people often get too excited

 

 

Alpha Protocol is one of the few games I've actually "somewhat" followed. But even then that's only recently (E3).

 

I try to fly under the radar, though mostly so I don't spoil the game for myself.

[Calax]

Just gonna point out that it seems like the various levels are going to be fairly limited in terms of scope. I mean we're told we're in Taipei but our entire experience there might just be arriving on a flight, sneaking into a mansion, fighting our way out, and flying to germany (or whatever). To ask for "an authentic feel" for something like that would raise costs to the point of stupidity.

 

When asked what games had given a good experiance Revolver pointed out the Pgr series, which struck me as off because that series didn't have to put in much to get a "feel" for each city. Just take some basic architecture and crowd designs and you're set, while an RPG would require MUCH more research and resources to get the "feel".

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I think the consideration of authenticity is still relevant in a game that has limited scope (see: all of them). It's impossible to represent every aspect of a place, but which aspects the developer chooses to represent are relevant. If I play a level in the Middle East and it's a bunch of caves in the mountains . . . well, okay, I guess that's what the developers thought it was important to include from the Middle East.

[Rostere]

This reminds me a lot of the thread about how Saudi Arabia was depicted, which was locked (I think?).

[Sannom]

Yeah, you're right, people had the exact same kind of fear and case of "hurt pride" Can't blame them I guess, I never really played a game that occurred in France for the most part

[Aristes]

Of course, it also depends on how the story unfolds. If the PC goes to the Middle East in order to take part in an operation to hunt down a terrorist currently believed to be hiding in mountain caves, you might chafe at the inference, but as long as the story-line is credible, it won't matter.

 

If the part in Taipei takes place on an NPC's private estate, then it really says nothing about Taipei in the first place. Regardless of assurances to the contrary, all we have is anecdotal evidence that absolutely no 'asian' style estates exist in Taipei. Because it's someone's personal estate, however, it really doesn't matter. Using the credibility rule, as long as someone could create such an estate, it's perfectly legitimate to place such an estate in Taipei. It's certainly just as legitimate as, say, having an enemy who dual-weilds pistols accurately, and far more believable.

 

Creating an 'asian' estate, by which I mean an estate with items stereotypically associated with asian cultures, such as zen gardens and pagodas and the like, says very little about Taipei and is surely not a question of accuracy. Like my numbered friend says, it might be a sign that Obsidian has created a carricature of an asian character, but does not really reflect anything about the accuracy of Taipei, which is also true the mountain cave in the Middle East. The 'Middle East' clearly has both mountains, and caves, and mountain caves. The question is what Obsidian is trying to say about the people living in the cave, not the cave itself. ...And the villain (or friendly NPC) living in the mountain cave is probably no more offensive in terms of the story than any number of literary ideas in the spy novel genre.

[alanschu]

And that makes it realistic

 

(I couldn't resist)

[kreese12]

I think Aristes is bang-on dude.

 

This thread sort of reminds me of the point I brought up in the stereotype thread. Someone was saying that Zie (?name?, the German cougar) should not have blond hair and blue eyes because that is a stereotype of Germans (which isn't true, but that is what the person is saying.) But just because a stereotype exists, does that mean characters should never have any traits that are stereotypical? So like, there should never be a blonde, blue-eyed Swedish chick in game, because there are a lot of sexy, blonde blue-eyed Swedes ? Just because Afghanistan terrorists often hang out in caves, does that mean that any depiction of them in games and films should then be houses and bunkers instead?

Edited July 11, 2009 by kreese12

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

My main problem with Sie is her name, really. Seems it just means "she" in german.

[Oner]

It could be a nickname for...uh...

Siegmund...Siegfried...

...

Yeah, can't remember any female names right now.

[Gorth]

It could be a nickname for...uh...

Siegmund...Siegfried...

...

Yeah, can't remember any female names right now.

Siegrid?

 

Most likely a pun. I.e Sie, "She" in her native German, pronounced Z (in a North American accent iirc)

[Jyros]

Obsidian better did their research, if they get this right, Alpha Protocol would be the first western made game to get an Asian locale right. I think that would be a HUGE plus to the game.

 

Splinter Cell: Double Agent says hi.

 

 

That's Shanghai.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Jyros

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Of course, it also depends on how the story unfolds. If the PC goes to the Middle East in order to take part in an operation to hunt down a terrorist currently believed to be hiding in mountain caves, you might chafe at the inference, but as long as the story-line is credible, it won't matter.

 

If the story makes you go through a cave, then the story was crafted specifically to make you do that (which was my point). If that results in a bland environment and scenarios we've already seen used to death elsewhere, cultural sensitivity is the least of a game's concerns.

[Aristes]

...But I don't think that the whole running through mountain caves has been done to death. For that reason, I don't really mind them having us do it. I will say that I appreciate your statements now that I understand them better. Frankly, that's the real topic. Will the locations be interesting and will they seem genuine to the player. I don't mind the idea of making locations 'realistic,' but realism is overrated. Believability is better than realistic and interesting trumps both.

 

In terms of the larger discussion, I think the use of the asian estate is more cliched than the use of mountain caves. On the other hand, I agree with Gromnir's point in a different thread. Some Cliched ideas aren't bad as long the design team does them well enough.