GreasyDogMeat Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 i think Fallout 3 suffers because the developers and writers there have different personalities. different sense of humor, drama and imo...a very immense lack of creativity. they are emulating the personalities of the original developers and they're coming up short. look, making an NPC curse every few words doesn't make it "adult themed" and it doesn't make it interesting. it just makes a bright flashing light that says "we're constantly attempting to make up for the impotent writing with KABOOM!!!" at the end of the day, compared to the spirit, originality and writing of the originals...it's an embarrassment and that's all it is. Heh, thats almost exactly how I felt about Fallout 2 when it came to the corny jokes everwhere, the added cursing and all the sex crap in New Reno.
Aristes Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 How do you take an idiotic comment like, "the Fallout 2 devs didn't get Fallout?" Hmmm, cast aspersions on the person saying it? Naw, too much effort. Fallout 2 is my favorite of the franchise. Of course, it's not uber realistic like Fallout 1 or 3. *gag* Too wacky for some folks, but just right for me. Truth to tell, I liked them all, so I can't complain about the franchise. I never played Tactics or Brotherhood of Steel. I'm looking forward to New Vegas, though, in a big way. I'm guessing the devs will "get" Fallout. Maybe, if we're lucky, as much as the devs did for Fallout 2.
TwinkieGorilla Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 I'm looking forward to New Vegas, though, in a big way. I'm guessing the devs will "get" Fallout. Maybe, if we're lucky, as much as the devs did for Fallout 2. agreed. and seeing as how they have actual Fallout ties, i think we'll be ok. even if we have to watch it through the hell that is the joke that is gamebryo engine. hopw roewur ne?
bhlaab Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Hah, I'd say Bethesda 'got' Fallout more so than the devs of Fallout 2, Tactics & especially BoS. At the end of the day, I have FUN playing Fallout 3, despite its flaws. In Mothership Zeta the aliens have returned and they are not happy. The mothership answers the distress call sent out by the alien ship at the Alien Crash Site and abducts the player, making the whole add-on take place on board of the alien ship[4]. The environment will be artistically different from the rest of Fallout 3, with nearly no assets reused[4]. You will be able to take a spacewalk possibly outside the ship. [5] You will recieve a radio transmission that is unintelligeble which will lead you to the alien crash site which players might already have visisted. It won't be the friendliest of greetings. The player will then be onboard the Mothership Zeta were they will meet other prisoners and plot their escape. [5] Mothership Zeta will still be in orbit. They have been watching Earth for quite some time. [5] There will be Alien Power Cells but still in a limited quantity [5] Onboard the Mothership, the questline won't be completely linear and will feature some exploration [5]
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) A bit of wackyness is fine, but it crossed the line for me. No... it sped passed that line in a rocket ship and gave it the finger. You can cast aspersions on me if you like, but I can question your taste too. The Space Quest games took themselves more seriously than Fallout 2 did. One thing it sounds like we all agree on though, is looking forward to Fallout New Vegas. I wouldn't plan on New Vegas being as cheeseball as 2 though (Thank goodness). From an interview I read it sounds like Feargus regrets a lot of the cheese in Fallout 2 and it sounds like Sawyer agrees it went a bit too far. Fallout 2 was a huge game, but when thinking of Fallout 2 I start thinking of speaking plants and chess playing radscorpions and I start rolling my eyes out of their sockets. @bhlaab: If you loved Fallout 2 this sounds right up your alley. Fallout 2 makes Mothership Zeta look like a stroll to the local supermarket. Edited July 11, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat
Aristes Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Well, it is true that Fallout 2 had a chess playing rad scorpion. haha I dunno, the alien zaniness has always been a part of the Fallout franchise. It's all about spoofing 50s and 60s sci fi movies. Hell, if it were set in Japan, we'd have Godzilla cameos.
Tagaziel Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 A bit of wackyness is fine, but it crossed the line for me. No... it sped passed that line in a rocket ship and gave it the finger. You can cast aspersions on me if you like, but I can question your taste too. The Space Quest games took themselves more seriously than Fallout 2 did. One thing it sounds like we all agree on though, is looking forward to Fallout New Vegas. I wouldn't plan on New Vegas being as cheeseball as 2 though (Thank goodness). From an interview I read it sounds like Feargus regrets a lot of the cheese in Fallout 2 and it sounds like Sawyer agrees it went a bit too far. Fallout 2 was a huge game, but when thinking of Fallout 2 I start thinking of speaking plants and chess playing radscorpions and I start rolling my eyes out of their sockets. @bhlaab: If you loved Fallout 2 this sounds right up your alley. Fallout 2 makes Mothership Zeta look like a stroll to the local supermarket. Fallout 2 was inconsistent, yes, but not nearly enough as you make it out to be. HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
213374U Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) there is only one proper "vision" for Fallout: the original vision. BIS created Fallout. anything else...let me repeat...ANYTHING else is simply an interpretation of this "vision"-proper. as Mikael said, Bethesda did not get Fallout. their interpretation was misdirected and wrong.Hahaha. Fundies are always great fun. But fundies wrt trivial stuff... that's just too much. At least do it for God or something. Edited July 11, 2009 by 213374U - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Well, it is true that Fallout 2 had a chess playing rad scorpion. haha I dunno, the alien zaniness has always been a part of the Fallout franchise. It's all about spoofing 50s and 60s sci fi movies. Hell, if it were set in Japan, we'd have Godzilla cameos. Well F1 did have Godzilla's footprint.
bhlaab Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) A bit of wackyness is fine, but it crossed the line for me. No... it sped passed that line in a rocket ship and gave it the finger. You can cast aspersions on me if you like, but I can question your taste too. The Space Quest games took themselves more seriously than Fallout 2 did. One thing it sounds like we all agree on though, is looking forward to Fallout New Vegas. I wouldn't plan on New Vegas being as cheeseball as 2 though (Thank goodness). From an interview I read it sounds like Feargus regrets a lot of the cheese in Fallout 2 and it sounds like Sawyer agrees it went a bit too far. Fallout 2 was a huge game, but when thinking of Fallout 2 I start thinking of speaking plants and chess playing radscorpions and I start rolling my eyes out of their sockets. @bhlaab: If you loved Fallout 2 this sounds right up your alley. Fallout 2 makes Mothership Zeta look like a stroll to the local supermarket. Fallout 2 had a pretty good explanation for all of its nonsense. The talking plants, some scientist made them. Throwind in canon aliens, however, changes the entire universe instead of just making one town a little bit sillier than others The wacky encounters in Fallout 1 and 2 officially "Don't count" since they are easter eggs. Edited July 11, 2009 by bhlaab
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 Fallout 2 had a pretty good explanation for all of its nonsense. The talking plants, some scientist made them. Throwind in canon aliens, however, changes the entire universe instead of just making one town a little bit sillier than others The wacky encounters in Fallout 1 and 2 officially "Don't count" since they are easter eggs. Except almost every town had some of this silliness. Hell, some of the towns themselves were silliness (Westworld, Casinoland). Fallout 2's 'wacky' encounters in town were just as wacky as their easter eggs. Hell, there was even a ghost in Fallout 2 and it wasn't even some hidden easter egg. I'm sorry, but an alien abduction just doesn't one-up Fallout 2 goofiness. We also have no idea how this alien encounter is going to be pulled off in Mothership Zeta. The idea works with the 50s theme. It MAY be pulled off decently, or it may be on the level of Fallout 2 cheese.
bhlaab Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 We also have no idea how this alien encounter is going to be pulled off in Mothership Zeta. Well I can take an educated guess and say about as well as the Alaskan front was pulled off? Or that whole project purity thing?
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) It might also be pulled off like Point Lookout, or any one of the other excellent side quests in Fallout 3. Go ahead and laugh if you are one of those who hated everything about F3, but I'm laughing too when people complain about Fallout 3 while holding up Fallout 2 as some sort of picture of perfection. Hell, look at the main quest of Fallout 2. The search for a G.E.C.K. (which I WISH Beth had retconned/forgot about in F3), a 'magical item' which creates... well an Eden. Compare that to F1 and the search for a mechanical component to repair their Vault. Did they even bother to explain why the tribe in F2 just didn't pack up their bags and head for more fertile lands? In F1 they were atleast stuck in their Vault/ways, but what the hell was holding the tribals back in F2? It just cracks me up when people speak of 'verisimilitude' or realism and how terrible Fallout 3 is compared to the originals. Want to make those comparisons with F1 vs. F3? Sure, ok, I get that. F2 vs. F3? Sorry, I'm laughing on the floor. Edited July 11, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat
bhlaab Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 It might also be pulled off like Point Lookout, or any one of the other excellent side quests in Fallout 3. Go ahead and laugh if you are one of those who hated everything about F3, but I'm laughing too when people complain about Fallout 3 while holding up Fallout 2 as some sort of picture of perfection. Hell, look at the main quest of Fallout 2. The search for a G.E.C.K. (which I WISH Beth had retconned/forgot about in F3), a 'magical item' which creates... well an Eden. Compare that to F1 and the search for a mechanical component to repair their Vault. Did they even bother to explain why the tribe in F2 just didn't pack up their bags and head for more fertile lands? In F1 they were atleast stuck in their Vault/ways, but what the hell was holding the tribals back in F2? It just cracks me up when people speak of 'verisimilitude' or realism and how terrible Fallout 3 is compared to the originals. Want to make those comparisons with F1 vs. F3? Sure, ok, I get that. F2 vs. F3? Sorry, I'm laughing on the floor. The joke in fallout 2 was that the geck was regarded as a holy grail when it was actually just a suicase with some seeds and a small water purifier in it In Fallout 3 it became a magical terraforming device
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 I must have forgotten about that inbetween all the sex jokes, talking animals, rocket ships and what-not.
TwinkieGorilla Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 I must have forgotten about that inbetween all the sex jokes, talking animals, rocket ships and what-not. what you've also seemed to have forgotten is everything else. FO2 introduced some excellent in-depth branching dialogue trees which far surpass what FO1 or FO3 have accomplished and an insane amount of quests (many which branched and were considerably more interesting than minor fetching), great utilization of C&C, and tons of interesting NPC interaction and originality to boot. Fallout 3 has barely anything like this. at their best they've got moments which seem like left-overs from the orginals. so even if you took *all* the wackiness out of FO2 you'd still have more meaningful meat than FO3 (and i haven't even mentioned the fact that FO3 has just as much corny "wackiness" as FO2 did. vampires? rednecks straight out of Deliverance? alien spaceships? give me a break, man. it might not have easter eggs with Monty Python references but it's got plenty of cornball to serve up, whether you want to admit it or not). what i'd love to see in a perfect world is a Fallout game as deep in the aforementioned areas as FO2 with the humor cut in half. i doubt Obsidian have the time (who knows if they've got the talent) though. hopw roewur ne?
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) what you've also seemed to have forgotten is everything else. FO2 introduced some excellent in-depth branching dialogue trees which far surpass what FO1 or FO3 have accomplished and an insane amount of quests (many which branched and were considerably more interesting than minor fetching), great utilization of C&C, and tons of interesting NPC interaction and originality to boot. Fallout 3 has barely anything like this. at their best they've got moments which seem like left-overs from the orginals. so even if you took *all* the wackiness out of FO2 you'd still have more meaningful meat than FO3 (and i haven't even mentioned the fact that FO3 has just as much corny "wackiness" as FO2 did. vampires? rednecks straight out of Deliverance? alien spaceships? give me a break, man. it might not have easter eggs with Monty Python references but it's got plenty of cornball to serve up, whether you want to admit it or not). what i'd love to see in a perfect world is a Fallout game as deep in the aforementioned areas as FO2 with the humor cut in half. i doubt Obsidian have the time (who knows if they've got the talent) though. That 'cornyness' in F3 is, at the very least, attempting to fit in with the setting, instead of a wink wink nudge nudge to the player. In-depth branching dialogue doesn't do anything when the world feels like a joke. Maybe you have forgotten Fallout 2, but if you added up every bit of silliness in F3 it would fit in ONE town of F2. Vampires as an example right? In F3 they use it as a result of mutation/radiation. The same things we don't seem to have a problem with creating Radscorpions, ghouls and Death Claws. If you were to take the same concept and put it in F2 it would have been count ****ing dracula with a cape underneath the town with a Transylvanian accent. F2 did some great things, it was just spoiled for me with all the jokes and it ranks well under Fallout 3 in enjoyment factor for me. I've played it only twice, and the second time was because I had some foul up at the time that corrupted my game. As for whether Obsidian has the talent: no worries here. Edited July 12, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat
TwinkieGorilla Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Maybe you have forgotten Fallout 2 heh. i play it nearly once a year (re: every time Kilap releases/updates the RP or his patch). hopw roewur ne?
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Hey, if you like it thats great. I just find it to be the height of hypocrisy to criticize F3 for 'silliness' and/or lack of realism while talking about how great Fallout 2 was.
TwinkieGorilla Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Hey, if you like it thats great. I just find it to be the height of hypocrisy to criticize F3 for 'silliness' and/or lack of realism while talking about how great Fallout 2 was. no. i criticize FO3 for it's horrible and embarrassing dialogue, storytelling, it's lack of meaningful C&C, quests, interesting NPC's, it's complete rape of the SPECIAL system rendering it completely meaningless and it's general dumbing-down consolizing and misinterpretation of one of the greatest cRPG series of all time. the fact that i even mention it's "silliness" is to counter your argument about FO2. hopw roewur ne?
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 no. i criticize FO3 for it's horrible and embarrassing dialogue, storytelling, it's lack of meaningful C&C, quests, interesting NPC's, it's complete rape of the SPECIAL system rendering it completely meaningless and it's general dumbing-down consolizing and misinterpretation of one of the greatest cRPG series of all time. the fact that i even mention it's "silliness" is to counter your argument about FO2. Well, the dialogue was pretty bad in spots, but it was good in a few others. The main quest became a joke about midway through, but I think most of the side quests more than made up for it. Game had plenty of C&C, some of it may have been meaningless, but some of it was in the original games too. As for the SPECIAL system, it may be dumbed down a bit, but that is happening with just about every CRPG system around. KotOR was dumbed down both as the next game after NwN and especially compared to the tabletop version, but it was a pretty good game. Troika's Bloodlines was dumbed down compared to Redemption, but most people seem to prefer Bloodlines. Another reason I'm willing to look past the rules being dumbed down is BoS didn't even use the SPECIAL system at all. There are a few changes that I actually like. Combinging First Aid with Doctor skill makes sense to me. I wouldn't mind combining the throwing of handgrenades being tied with the explosives skill but they should have also added throwing melee weapons (knives, spears, rocks etc) and combined that with the melee skill.
bhlaab Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 no. i criticize FO3 for it's horrible and embarrassing dialogue, storytelling, it's lack of meaningful C&C, quests, interesting NPC's, it's complete rape of the SPECIAL system rendering it completely meaningless and it's general dumbing-down consolizing and misinterpretation of one of the greatest cRPG series of all time. the fact that i even mention it's "silliness" is to counter your argument about FO2. Well, the dialogue was pretty bad in spots, but it was good in a few others. The main quest became a joke about midway through, but I think most of the side quests more than made up for it. Game had plenty of C&C, some of it may have been meaningless, but some of it was in the original games too. As for the SPECIAL system, it may be dumbed down a bit, but that is happening with just about every CRPG system around. KotOR was dumbed down both as the next game after NwN and especially compared to the tabletop version, but it was a pretty good game. Troika's Bloodlines was dumbed down compared to Redemption, but most people seem to prefer Bloodlines. Another reason I'm willing to look past the rules being dumbed down is BoS didn't even use the SPECIAL system at all. There are a few changes that I actually like. Combinging First Aid with Doctor skill makes sense to me. I wouldn't mind combining the throwing of handgrenades being tied with the explosives skill but they should have also added throwing melee weapons (knives, spears, rocks etc) and combined that with the melee skill. They didn't combine first aid and doctor, they got rid of doctor.
GreasyDogMeat Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 They didn't combine first aid and doctor, they got rid of doctor. Uh, no they didn't. Applying stims to limbs (haha, I rhyme like a chime) could be considered use of the doctor skill. Furthermore you have a few chances in the game to operate on dying people to save them.
213374U Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 The joke in fallout 2 was that the geck was regarded as a holy grail when it was actually just a suicase with some seeds and a small water purifier in it In Fallout 3 it became a magical terraforming device In FO2 it's never really explained what the GECK is or how it is supposed to work. But seeing Vault City and how utterly useless Citizens are, I'm leaning more towards the "magical" interpretation in FO2 as well. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
TwinkieGorilla Posted July 12, 2009 Posted July 12, 2009 Well, the dialogue was pretty bad in spots, but it was good in a few others. i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here for two reasons. one being the overwhelming majority of horribly juvenile or poorly written dialogue may have prevented me from being able to notice anything which was actually decent. two being that i have no clue what your standards are. you could be the type of guy who either regularly enjoys a romp with Satre, David Foster Wallace or the latest Forbidden Realms. i can't tell you you're wrong if your standards for dialect, story, humor and drama are below average. The main quest became a joke about midway through, but I think most of the side quests more than made up for it. i agree there were a few very well done sidequests but to say they made up for the game generally sucking a horse's **** on the racetrack (RIP Wesley Willis) is a bit much. Game had plenty of C&C, some of it may have been meaningless, but some of it was in the original games too. some of it? try all. you blow up one of the biggest settlements (the biggest?) and who notices? your reputation for being "that" person doesn't even travel INSIDE THE GODDAMN HOTEL!!! As for the SPECIAL system, it may be dumbed down a bit hahaha, i love how you're trying reverse hyperbole in order to defend FO3. "a bit", eh? let's look at an old post i made back from the Bethesda board days. it details every single difference between the old and new: Yeah, Just a "Bit" hopw roewur ne?
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