entrerix Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 If you guys want more threads to discuss Fallout in, start showing us that you can behave in this one. this is so cute. It reminds me of being 12 again, nevermind the fact that I'm a 26 year old attorney with not enough clients and too much coffee. lol. I'd really like vegas to have one big huge city with tons of depth and characters (including joinable factions like the mob families - each with 4-5 fully fleshed out quests) and sidequests ranging from little things like helping the farmers learn how to rotate crops and repairing their well to big things like HUGE quests that take hours to complete and have lots of Choice and Consequence and Character development, and then 4-5 cities/shantytowns about the size of megaton with only 3-4 quests of the length and depth of Blood Ties or Stealing Independence per shantytown then there should be misc wanderers or smaller baby towns like Big Town or republic of Dave that have only 1-2 quests with hourlong length to them. so basically I want a lot more quests, characters, choices, and character development. with better writing. I want much much fewer random wasteland buildings that exist for little purpose other than holding raiders Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
cronicler Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) SteveThaiBinh: Actually the amount of stuff you do is about the same with Oblivion. The small villages are on par with the Oblivion ones too. As for size... I think the actual area is a bit smaller and has more stuff in it but as most of this stuff is configured as dungeons, it is not easy to notice when above ground. (Ps: Unfortunately, there is quite a big chunk of world "fenced" with impassable barriers reserved for the trench warfare sections. those really cut a good sized part of the map unusable for exploration.) Edit: Yay! thank you. was my first thought, then uh oh here comes the spam posts followed it Edit 2: There are some natural bickering between TG and Aristes on FO3, Me and Gromnir on Outdoorsman and Vehicles, KK being a pessimist on creativity vs cash gain issue but none of them are actually that bad from the forum rules perspective. It just gets bad when all of these happen side by side and on top of each other. Edited May 13, 2009 by cronicler IG. We kick ass and not even take names.
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) you guys behave behave? **** man, i go on tour and trash hotel rooms for a living. behave my ass. EDIT: this is meant for jokes, ok? Edited May 13, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla hopw roewur ne?
SteveThaiBinh Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 SteveThaiBinh: Actually the amount of stuff you do is about the same with Oblivion. The small villages are on par with the Oblivion ones too. As for size... I think the actual area is a bit smaller and has more stuff in it but as most of this stuff is configured as dungeons, it is not easy to notice when above ground. (Ps: Unfortunately, there is quite a big chunk of world "fenced" with impassable barriers reserved for the trench warfare sections. those really cut a good sized part of the map unusable for exploration.) The view distance made the world in Oblivion feel small in a way that Morrowind never did, though I gather the game world was indeed significantly smaller. I never managed to judge the view distance from Megaton, as I got a crick in my neck from looking up those walkways. But I was surprised that Fallout 3 seemed to be going for a wasteland-y feel, even though it was in a major urban area (or remains thereof). I wonder if New Vegas will go for a wasteland or city feel, and whether you can accomplish both with that engine. "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)
entrerix Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 It would be great, even if there is nothing to show, if at E3 there was a least an interview or Q&A session about New Vegas that at least discussed the direction they were taking the design and the likely factions we'll be seeing. I'm curious, has sawyer and company already begun writing dialogue trees? I'd guess they have people working on this by now since they dont have to muck with the engine that much. Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 If this is to take place in one city I hope that it will be a very large city, from multiple sewer lines to the top post apocalyptic penthouses.We need more detailed environments than what we got in Fallout 3 with DC. Without spoilers, how big did Fallout 3 feel, compared with Morowind and Oblivion? I've only explored Megaton so far, and that's teeny. I enjoy Fallout 3 more than Oblivion. WHile in Oblivion there are more quests and more structured things to do they are superficial compared to the quests involved in Fallout 3 and many Fallout 3 quests have one possible solution. One of the first quests in Megaton has many ways to resolve it, with different consequences, depending how you handle it. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
entrerix Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 its weird how big morrowind felt. lack of immediate fast travel REALLY opens up the size of the gameworld. worlds started getting smaller (despite actually being larger) once you could start teleporting all over the place. dont get me wrong, i like SOME fast travel but i like it morrowind style, where there are certain hubs that allow fast travel, new vegas should require the presence of a caravan to fast travel (ie you must join the caravan to teleport around) or at least make that a setting in the options menu for us people who want it. there should be TONS of settings, including whether or not you are invincible during vats, whether or not shots and moving in realtime cost action points, whether or not the game is turn based, what the view of the game is, whether or not ammo has wieght all of these should be options in the settings menu! right in the game! freedom of choice and all that If sawyer likes options, then maybe we'll have them! Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Slowtrain Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 [but there will be less tolerance for posts that fall outside of the forum guidelines if we do so. So everyone gets to feel like they're contributing something; you guys behave, and we give you a bigger playground to play around in. That would be awesome, Matthew, if you guys can swing it. EVen just three threads such as Aristes outlined some time back would be fantastic. Thank you Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Aristes Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Hey, I've not been fighting with anyone. Hell, I might poke fun at my gorilla friend, but I'm not trying to get him booted. I pretty much read this thread and I'm hoping for a split too. I think talking about New Vegas is perfectly legit. There's more than enough room to discuss the topic. For one thing, while we don't know the specific direction the design team is headed, we do know the setting and surrounding area. We know the basic mechanics of the engine. We know, within a few parameters, the level of technology and time frame. We know the state of the wasteland in California and DC withing a few decades of each other. Once again, I had suggested three topics, but I'd be happy with any split. Fallout: New Veagas -- general area and wasteland. Fallout: New Vegas -- The city. Fallout: New Vegas -- combat. Fallout: New Vegas -- SPECIAL. I see a lot of new topics from which to choose. We probably won't get five topics, but three or so wouldn't hurt. I think some of you are a bit over the top on baiting Bethesda, but a lot of us can spread the manure on Troika. If there is some sort of general word on how far we can go with regard to poking fun at Bethie and St. Timmy, I'm happy to abide. However, Matthew has given us incentive to post. That way we can fill up this thread and get our specific topics for discussion sooner!
cronicler Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Ah the view distance, and no you are correct on that O. was a lot smaller than M. and F3 follows the same trend. Less distance, more things on the screen (engine limitations. I don't think they can get much better results then the current game. the engine doesn't have/can't use low res models for distant models as far as I'm aware...). And you are also correct that Megaton was jumbled and quite small. Unfortunately other than Rivet City (which is built on a "dungeon" tile set) It is probably the biggest settlement. (The Paradise Falls were about the same size I guess. everything else is smaller. much smaller.) Edit: Actually the place should have been a marshland, swamp if you want to nitpick (Climate due to position/distance from sea and equator...) but I guess they went for the wasteland= sick and dead desert tones... Edit 2: I did not mean fight. I meant you were fencing here and there as an example, I and everyone else here does some fencing too but as we are in the same room it resembles a bar fight now and then Edited May 13, 2009 by cronicler IG. We kick ass and not even take names.
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Well, it is the Wasteland. There shouldn't be any really large settlements left. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Hey, I've not been fighting with anyone. Hell, I might poke fun at my gorilla friend, but I'm not trying to get him booted. no worries, i never felt like you were attacking me. hopw roewur ne?
Fionavar Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Thanks Aristes that is a useful framework. The universe is change; your life is what our thoughts make it - Marcus Aurelius (161)
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I think we are all friends here with a common interest in gaming. We may differ in opinions on what makes a good game, but I am sure we all can agree on that we all want Obsidian to make the best Fallout game they can. Especially to make it without any werewolves in it. I just think that Twink needs to lighten up on Grommie, beyond that I think everyone here is pretty good natured about the barbs being tossed and no one is taking them personally. I know I'm not. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
SteveThaiBinh Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Well, it is the Wasteland. There shouldn't be any really large settlements left. Not large by our standards, no, and video game settlements have always been improbably small. I want New Vegas - the city, as well as the game - to be something substantial, otherwise it's just another patch of wasteland. "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)
cronicler Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Killian: We should agree on the definition of large for a Post Apoc. Settlement i guess. A typical settlement that can take care of its own needs with farming, building, entertainment and all numbers around 50-100 or so including elderly, children etc (going by minimum round numbers). something like a 20-50 man town and a few farms that are somewhat fortress like and have worker barracks and all... These places are actually really small. A mining or trader boom town can have population up to 1000 (with a permanent pop of about 100 I guess) easyly. A Mercenary organizations camp, and its camp followers would also be around 500 or so (with 300 mercs in a company organization) I know people don't like (me) using "Realism" arguments but I would have liked to see some more "random" people that made the place look alive instead of just standing there... IG. We kick ass and not even take names.
WILL THE ALMIGHTY Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I think we are all friends here with a common interest in gaming. We may differ in opinions on what makes a good game, but I am sure we all can agree on that we all want Obsidian to make the best Fallout game they can. Especially to make it without any werewolves in it. I just think that Twink needs to lighten up on Grommie, beyond that I think everyone here is pretty good natured about the barbs being tossed and no one is taking them personally. I know I'm not. I disagree with you. ME>FO2 "Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Well, there is only so much resources that a computer and the XBox 360 has. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I think we are all friends here with a common interest in gaming. We may differ in opinions on what makes a good game, but I am sure we all can agree on that we all want Obsidian to make the best Fallout game they can. Especially to make it without any werewolves in it. I just think that Twink needs to lighten up on Grommie, beyond that I think everyone here is pretty good natured about the barbs being tossed and no one is taking them personally. I know I'm not. ... maybe you not believe us when we said first time, but we actually do prefer our current dynamic with twink... twink posts and then Gromnir can respond (or not) secure in knowledge that we won't have to deal with a canonical response. is win-win. no arguments develop. *shrug* guidelines is strange stuff. guidelines is typical useless w/o some kinda reference as to application. years o' posting in this place has given Gromnir some notion as to what is actual meaning o' the guidelines... but we suspect that the current new vegas discussions is gonna change the application standards. am okie dokie with the policy o' the Brave New World as long as such standards is applied predictably and uniformly... is only gonna cause problems if predicting application is akin to predicting lightning strikes. ... btw, am aware that you guys has a policy 'gainst bashing other developers... you have stated that more than once. however, troika is not a developer; they are deceased. am honest curious whether defunct developers and publishers is to be insulated from criticism same as current active developers. feedback would be appreciated. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Tagaziel Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Well, it is the Wasteland. There shouldn't be any really large settlements left. It's been two centuries since the war. People, y'know, procreate. And stuff. HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Yes, but people die as well. There is such a thing as a negative population growth. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
Tagaziel Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 At that rate, humanity would be extinct by 2241. But in 2241, NCR's territories had 700,000 citizens. In the 23rd century, over a century after the war, the population growth would be positive and several major settlements would likely emerge, with more on the way. Despite mutants, bandits and whatnot. HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
entrerix Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) a large wasteland settlement would be something like bartertown from mad max 3. If I had to guess I'd say there were about a thousand people there on any given day. maybe many more when you consider the prison colony underground and all the people who hang around the area outside the main city. (like those caravans at the hub or was it the den, i always confuse those two) might have been a few thousand people there. I seriously doubt we will have a town that size in the game, so no one should be worried about a city having too many people to feel like a wasteland. how many npcs were in the main city in oblivion? a few hundred? not even close to bartertown, which is one of the quintessential wasteland cities Edited May 13, 2009 by entrerix Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Tagaziel Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Large, populated cities aren't breaking the wasteland feel, long as they are done correctly. Take the Hub from Fo1 for instance, a trading hub surrounded by a wall, estabilished around an Oasis. A massive city, yet it doesn't destroy the feeling of post-apocalypse in the game. HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ]
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 you folks ain't trying to discuss fo population in terms o' realism, right? might as well point out that the sheer number o' large predators roaming 'bout pretty much invalidates the possibility o' you having a wasteland. you got giant insects, (impossible for multiple reasons) and super mutants (HA!) and miniguns as personal weapons (*groan*). am not sure why folks can stomach such stuff... and then get all twisted by minutiae. is the flinstones... is no more plausible than the flinstones setting. you wouldn't argue population density with flinstones, would you? would be silly to do so, right? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
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