When life was simpler

[Arkan]

Women/feminists can complain all they want about getting paid the same wage for the same work, but as long as the phrase "Women (and children) First" exists, tough titties, ladies.

[taks]

Women/feminists can complain all they want about getting paid the same wage for the same work, but as long as the phrase "Women (and children) First" exists, tough titties, ladies.

yeah. and they better make sure to keep 'em available and keep up with that kitchen work if they want any respect from me.

 

wait, dammit... i'm the one that does the dishes in my house. argh. of course, that's because my wife won't trust me with anything else but cooking and cleaning the kitchen. that doesn't sound good, either. i'm suffering man point losses. she gets the laundry and everything else for that matter. phew, i won, and have retained a few man points.

 

taks

 

PS: how on earth did this turn into another woman bashing thread? didn't we already have one of those recently?

Edited April 9, 2009 by taks

[Gorgon]

A little insurance before any women posters show up ehh.

 

Can't hurt can it.

[Pidesco]

Women are generally better then men.

[Meshugger]

Well, of course there's compromises in a working relationship. For example, I cook since the female in the household has even managed to burn a bowl of boiling water. She does the laundry, wipes the floor and cleans the toilets, while i use the vacuumcleaner, fix the car and various electrical stuff. She wipes dust and I clean the cat's litterbox. She buys the game consoles, while I buy the TVs. Ying&Yang, you, know.

[kirottu]

Women are generally better then men.

 

Traitor.

[Pidesco]

Don't provoke me or lesbians will be brought into the fray.

[Arkan]

Women are generally better then men.

 

Yeah, at having babies and modeling sports cars.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Don't provoke me or lesbians will be brought into the fray.

 

 

Ive seen lesbians in reality, ok? And I think we should be glad that those women stick to other women.

[Moatilliatta]

The only sexy lesbians are the ones that aren't actually lesbians.

 

Also what's with the sausagefest in here?

[Morgoth]

I'll just make sure that whatever education/job I do with the rest of my life, it will remain very technical, so that I don't have to deal with too many of these radical feminist nutjobs. Because those usually tend to be too stupid for such things.

[Cycloneman]

Women are generally better then men.

I agree. I mean, they have a lower tendency to instantly degrade any thread that touches on feminism into a big fat "feminists are the REAL sexists"-fest.

 

Jesus Christ, there's so much male privelege in this topic it hurts.

 

To all of you going "heh, sorry women, we here in the west have ended sexism, no complaining!!!":

 

What is a "radical feminist"? I'm genuinely curious as to what you guys thing is a "radical" belief for a feminist to hold.

[Moatilliatta]

^Isn't getting any.

 

I'm serious why did we turn this into schlong worshipping? This should have been about posting beautiful women or something like that.

[Meshugger]

- Does the graph take into consideration the disparancy betweem "feminine" and "masculine" fields?

- Does the graph take into consideration that many women work less years due to childbirth and maturnity leave?

- Does the graph take into consideration the recent study that women argue less for higher wages than men do? (For personal contracts, union and collective contracts not included)

 

If they do, then i want to know what they are doing in Malta.

[Meshugger]

^Isn't getting any.

 

I'm serious why did we turn this into schlong worshipping? This should have been about posting beautiful women or something like that.

 

Nah, that would be sexist and discriminating towards women.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Meshugger

[Aristes]

I think that little doodle there depicts exactly how life should be.

Women Bar-B-Q'ing? NEVER!

 

hahaha I laughed out loud. Although I have to admit my sister grills really well. None of us REALLY BBQ. Mmmm, wish we did.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The only way you can get a correct reading is if you compare men and women with the same education and career, doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours. Otherwise you're staring at patterns that doesnt actually exist.

[Cycloneman]

- Does the graph take into consideration the disparancy betweem "feminine" and "masculine" fields?

- Does the graph take into consideration that many women work less years due to childbirth and maturnity leave?

- Does the graph take into consideration the recent study that women argue less for higher wages than men do? (For personal contracts, union and collective contracts not included)

 

If they do, then i want to know what they are doing in Malta.

First three points don't matter because Malta is in there and has <5% discrepancy. I don't think they've magically eliminated anything about what women your stereotype of women are like. Oh wait, the first three points were all your points. Sorry.

[taks]

She does the laundry, wipes the floor and cleans the toilets, while i use the vacuumcleaner, fix the car and various electrical stuff. She wipes dust and I clean the cat's litterbox. She buys the game consoles, while I buy the TVs. Ying&Yang, you, know.

my wife does all the man stuff, or we pay to have it done. i decided loooong ago that if i could ever afford to pay for things, i would. i am a snob in that respect.

 

taks

[Aristes]

I disagree with what seems to be your underlying premise, Cycloneman. Maybe there is absolutely no hard-wired difference between men and women. If that's so, then all we have are stereotypes and prejudices. Fair enough. But can we entertain the question that maybe men and women are naturally different. If the hard-wire idea has cache in terms of sexual orientation, then why is it taboo in the larger discussion of gender? Maybe there are professions to which women are more naturally drawn. ...And you can't answer the question in the negative with any authority until you've entertained the idea in the positive. There is a discrepency in that graph in every nation. The smallest percentage is Malta, and I would submit that there are a number of factors involved on which gender has either a fleeting impact or none at all.

 

Look, I'm not saying that woman haven't had a raw deal. What I'm saying is that we don't know all of the factors and in some cases the underlying causes might just be physiological. Women should be paid the same for the same work, but who says that women want the same jobs? ...And, even having the same jobs, it's fairly clear to me that women tend towards less overt aggression than men. Hell, that doesn't even say something good about men. Mostly it just says something about nature where men have, for thousands of years, been the ones who went and fought against the environment or each other for enough resources to keep their families alive. And women have generally been the caregivers to the family. Generalities are just that -- general statements. Some women are willing to go up to the boss and demand a pay raise. Some women are happy to fight along-side men in uniform. ...But it doesn't seem that most women do and, a pointed question, are they naturally inclined not to?

 

I ask these questions as genuine queries. I've observed differences, but I think it can be difficult to discern your own prejudices from within the problem. Our biggest roadblock is that we are all within the problem. So, how do we get an unbiased answer?

[taks]

in professions such as engineering, there simply aren't that many women in the field (i'd estimate under 10%, but i haven't worked for a large company in a while). since they are only recently beginning to gain ground, that means most women in the engineering fields haven't been in long enough to obtain senior level positions, and their contribution is dominated by younger, or entry level positions. this will without a doubt lower the average pay for women, and i'd suspect the case is similar in many historically male-dominated fields. without accounting for the demographics for each country on that list, it is impossible to even begin assessing where/why the true discrepancies exist. also, in general, women did not begin to enter the workforce at large until well into the 70s, and arguably the mid to late 80s, so there aren't that many 30-year professionals bringing up the average anyway (i don't know any 30-year engineers that are female - most are my time frame or later).

 

interestingly, where i went to school for my undergrad years (1986-1990), the incoming freshmen were nearly split between men and women. by graduation, it was almost 4:1 men.

 

taks

[Cycloneman]

[lots of stuff that I could have edited to be racist instead of sexist, but didn't]

 

I ask these questions as genuine queries. I've observed differences, but I think it can be difficult to discern your own prejudices from within the problem. Our biggest roadblock is that we are all within the problem. So, how do we get an unbiased answer?

Here's the problem with this argument:

 

Name one statistical deviation between males and females in the USA (for example) in terms of psychology that is equal to or greater than the % difference in pay between the two sexes. It's about a 30% difference. The deviation in terms of, say, liberalism between the sexes tends to be around 10% (for most of the stats I've read). The deviation in terms of pay grade is ****ing vast. See also, this graph, which demonstrates that the difference is not caused by the level of education:

 

Do women spend ~30% of their time being pregnant? Are they ~30% less aggressive than men? Are they ~30% less interested in the jobs they worked for?

[Meshugger]

- Does the graph take into consideration the disparancy betweem "feminine" and "masculine" fields?

- Does the graph take into consideration that many women work less years due to childbirth and maturnity leave?

- Does the graph take into consideration the recent study that women argue less for higher wages than men do? (For personal contracts, union and collective contracts not included)

 

If they do, then i want to know what they are doing in Malta.

First three points don't matter because Malta is in there and has <5% discrepancy. I don't think they've magically eliminated anything about what women your stereotype of women are like. Oh wait, the first three points were all your points. Sorry.

 

Whut? Serious answer please.

 

About the other graph what do they mean by "similarly educated"? Are they within the same field or not, like medical doctors? For example A mathmatican has a way higher wage in general than a philosopher, even though their education is at the same level. That is the point that i am trying to make.

 

And working more years in the field gives you a significant edge. The girlfriend makes almost 20% more than me (i have master's of science degree in technology, she in economics) due she being in the workforce for longer than i have. In terms of title, responsibilities and position, we are at the same level. If she started at entry-level positions today, she would make about ~600 euro less.

[Aristes]

Well, I'm glad you didn't edit my post in order to depict me as racist. On the other hand, I recall threads in this forum where folks contend that all humans of different "races" are the same where others cited research that indicates physiological differences between "races" as well. I'm one of those folks who believes that there is really no such thing as "race," but there are others who suggest that there are clearly defined differences between races and then have evidence to back up their claims. While I don't accept the evidence as conclusive, I also don't accuse them of racism (sexism) because they broach the subject. This is clearly what I meant in regards to entering these ideas into the larger discussion. Perhaps there are no real physiological differences between men and women, although I submit there are more than between an african male and a european male. More by definition.

 

Getting away from the racist/sexist/ageist/otherist discussion, I take your point well. It even makes sense. However, how much does that graph take into account different professional choices, different educational paths, and the cumulative effect of women who remove themselves from the workforce for long periods to raise a family, women who have been habituated to thinking of men as the primary breadwinners, the supposedly less agressive nature of women, and a host of other factors?

 

What I'm saying is, I'm not sold that the graph you present paints a picture in which the only culprit is discrimination. I have no doubt it is part of it, but discrimination works in many ways on many levels. For example, what is the earnings difference between, say, white women in the United States and hispanic women? If they are the same, then maybe we can leave out race/ethnic discrimination. If there is a difference, how much of that difference is because of ethnic discrimination of whites against hispanics and how much might be, I dunno, hispanic mores regarding women and the workplace?

 

There is no reason to suggest that discrimination might not be an issue in earnings. There is a lot of discrimination in the workplace, to be sure. There is discrimination everywhere. However, establishing a causative relationship between discrimination and salaries will require more evidence than your graph provides.

 

I hope that we can avoid obvious roadblocks like calling each other (race)sex-ists. I appreciate that you avoided a cheap, easy, and ineffective argument.

[Hurlshort]

My wife and I are both teachers. We have been teaching the same amount of years. I make more money than her because I am offered more opportunities. The administrators give me extra duty jobs, extra classes, all sorts of things. My wife is a harder worker, but she is just not offered the same chances. It also has to do with aggression. My wife will do all sorts of stuff for free, she teaches dance and cheerleading and makes very little extra for it. I just wouldn't do that. I won't do extra work unless I will be compensated.

 

So yeah, it's a tough situation. From what I've seen, women are much harder workers then men. Except when they are drying their nail polish.