Another massive Eve Online theft.

[Purkake]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

 

If there were consequences for death, maybe people would think twice before running headfirst into a random battle. Also running a way is always an option. People are just spoiled these days.

 

 

Running away isn't always an option though. If you come across some super high level dude that has super fast mounts, well then I guess it sucks to be you.

 

Yeah, then the idea would be to try to avoid people who can kill you in seconds. If you can't then you are at their mercy.

 

 

Yeah, because it's cool to lose a lot of play time and investment (not to mention friends of the same level) because some level 80 guy with gear and abilities that ensure you'll never touch him come running around. How pray tell, do I avoid him if I'm to actually play the game and do anything?

 

Tell you what, just delete your character after you die and you can do just that. Should make the current MMO's more exhilarating for you.

 

That's just how it used to be. If you met someone stronger than you and they decided that you should die then you just did, you either accepted that or played another game. How is it any different from you getting killed by a monster that is way stronger than you?

 

Also, I don't really play MMOs too much these days.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Purkake

[Aristes]

I get the feeling that definitions are important to you Rhomal. I disagree that the term is hard and defined, but then again, most terms aren't. You want me to use your definition because you've got the inside skinny? Fair enough. I'll substitute "anti-social" or "asinine" for my comments regarding players stealing crap from one another.

 

As I said, you enjoy that design concept, go play UO. Seriously, I don't begrudge you playing the game that you enjoy. Have fun doing it. I prefer games where the design team didn't go out of its way to build in opportunities for players to screw over each other. That doesn't mean I resent you for enjoying them.

 

On the other hand, I prefer WoW. I'll play my game and you play yours.

 

My real comments regarded the player base of each game. I'm not complaining about player conduct in a game I don't play. Hell, I don't complain about player conduct in a game I do play. Is it merely being an arse if you see me fighting next to an ore vein in Sholazar Basin and snag it while I'm fighting or is it griefing? Where does that fall compared to going in and killing all of the NPCs in Goldshire so I have to wait to turn in quests? What about flagging yourself in a PvE realm and then standing on top of what my character is fighting so I accidently flag and you can kill my lowbie with your high level character?

 

I don't complain about these things. I generally don't care. However, I don't tend to play games that put in extra means to screw other players. If it's not called griefing, then I'll call it "prick enabling design." I don't care that you like game that encourage grie---- oops, sorry, I meant "prick encouraging behavior." Just don't blame me if I prefer games that don't. You play your game and I'll play mine.

[Rhomal]

I get the feeling that definitions are important to you Rhomal. I disagree that the term is hard and defined, but then again, most terms aren't.

 

In your opinion.. I'd point you to a typical dictonary to rebutt your stance, but thats not here nor there.

 

And yes it does, call it a pet peeve of mine.

 

And you like to play candyland games where death means little apparently, fair enough. As you said to each their own. Personally if theres little chance of me having any significant loss for my actions ever then whats the point? But again, thats just me. I have noticed playing AoC some folks WANT that kind of game, where the rewards are high and the risks low. As lossing anything 'isn't fun' is the defense I hear time and time again. *shrugs* Why not just start your PC at max level with the highest gear? Save you the trouble if thats the case...

Edited January 26, 2009 by Rhomal

[Aristes]

I'd say we grab a typical dictionary from two hundred years ago... a hundred years ago... twenty years ago to rebutt your stance. ...But hey, you're the English genius not me. lol

 

As regards my candyland game, I'm the one who suggested that Hurlshot's permadeath could be a good idea. You didn't like it, though. Does that mean you only want a candyland game?

 

How about the fact that I never said anything about game difficulty. I merely made a comment about how players interact with each other. You have a definition that includes the idea that it's not griefing if the game allows you to do it, which sounds silly since anything you do in a game the game allows you to do. By definition.

 

I don't have anything against experience loss or experience debt. I've played games that include such features and I enjoy them. Since you're the one putting words in my mouth regarding difficulty so you can argue against a point I wasn't making in the first place, why shouldn't I do the same. *shrug*

 

I could say that putting in a lot of features that allow players to gri--- almost did it again! Putting in a lot of "hey I'm a prick" features allows folks like you to live out antisocial fantasies that you're too craven to pursue in real life. I could have said that, but I didn't. Frankly, I don't think it's true.

 

So, I'm talking about players stealing from one another and looting each others corpses. I'm not talking about difficulty and I've already signed on board for far more definitive consequences than you yourself advocate. This isn't about whether you want to have a harder game. You want a game where you can steal from other players. Fair enough. I don't. That should also be fair without you mischaracterizing my position. Aw well, this thread is looking to be fun in the near future, though.

[Hurlshort]

So, I'm talking about players stealing from one another and looting each others corpses. I'm not talking about difficulty and I've already signed on board for far more definitive consequences than you yourself advocate. This isn't about whether you want to have a harder game. You want a game where you can steal from other players. Fair enough. I don't. That should also be fair without you mischaracterizing my position. Aw well, this thread is looking to be fun in the near future, though.

 

As I mentioned earlier, this also has a lot to do with the economy of a game. In WoW, it would be an absolute crime if you could lose a set of armor, because it requires a lot to get it. It is a very gear-centic game. UO has a very different economy, and gear is not as important to the overall game experience. You could run around naked if you had the skills.

 

And don't tell me you don't want to run around naked and fight. I know you all dream of it.

[Rhomal]

My bad, I am at work and skimmed over your points to hurl in my hurry. Fair enough.

 

As for my AoC comments I was not posting that towards you I was just tossing that out there about folks I met on AoC. As they really seem opposed to any kind of serious challenge, and the point I was making was it seems thats a trend. Did not mean to imply you were in that boat.

 

Finally it's not I -need- or require looting, I just don't see the big deal about as I was taken aback by you compairing it to players exploiting or going out of their way to harrass others, real griefing. XP loss, money loss.. really is item loss that worse? *shrugs* I know many folks who would gladly loose their weapon (as they had a backup or two in the bank) rather then skill or xp points which took twice as long to regain.

 

I played and even ran a UO server and item loss wasn't a make it or break it situation as you seem to me making it out to be. Setback sure, but certainly not a game ending event.

[Aristes]

I've been kind of joking around because I didn't think I can play UO. I just looked it up and it turns out that it is still running. I guess if they had a free offer, I'd join. The biggest reason I don't play it, however, is that it's not feasible to play more than one MMORPG at a time. If it were, I'd be playing LotRO as it is. Hell, I've already paid for the Moria expansion.

 

I'm not trying to get anyone's goat here, but I don't like games where the point is to screw over other players as much as games that focus on the environment. I find that too much focus on what we can do to fellow players tneds to interupt exploration and questing. I don't see why that's cause so much dissention, but I don't mind discussing it. *shrug*

[alanschu]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

 

If there were consequences for death, maybe people would think twice before running headfirst into a random battle. Also running a way is always an option. People are just spoiled these days.

 

 

Running away isn't always an option though. If you come across some super high level dude that has super fast mounts, well then I guess it sucks to be you.

 

Yeah, then the idea would be to try to avoid people who can kill you in seconds. If you can't then you are at their mercy.

 

 

Yeah, because it's cool to lose a lot of play time and investment (not to mention friends of the same level) because some level 80 guy with gear and abilities that ensure you'll never touch him come running around. How pray tell, do I avoid him if I'm to actually play the game and do anything?

 

Tell you what, just delete your character after you die and you can do just that. Should make the current MMO's more exhilarating for you.

 

That's just how it used to be. If you met someone stronger than you and they decided that you should die then you just did, you either accepted that or played another game. How is it any different from you getting killed by a monster that is way stronger than you?

 

Also, I don't really play MMOs too much these days.

 

 

Unless I'm playing Ironman, I don't restart a single player game from start when a monster kills me.

 

And what game featured permadeath? I'm not slagging on the looting, or the intrigue of Eve or whatever. But permanently killing your character?

 

I enjoyed the hardcore mode of Diablo II, but 99.9% of the people weren't **** about it and the game was soooo much faster than a typical MMO that the time investment is significantly less.

 

 

I suppose it's hard to say because I didn't start playing WoW from the get go with permadeath. But at the same time, I doubt I would have bothered!

[Starwars]

The problem I have with most MMORPGs is that it's just to much about the fighting, which is pretty much exactly the opposite of what I want from a game where the point is that you play with other players. I want the interesting interactions where people do backstab each other, form alliances and break them, gang up on one another and generally manipulate things. A carefully built game where the players are really important to what happens in the gameworld and where they can interact with each other in a meaningful way.

At the same time, I understand that people do get upset, because there is the possibility of losing what you've worked hard for and most likely spent a lot of time acquiring.

 

The most interesting online experiences I've seen are probably A Tale in the Desert and certain NWN PWs. There was also one adult MMORPG that I remember reading about, which seemed to have all kinds of neat features. Like an actual crime system where if a crime was comitted, it could be investigated by other players ingame, taken to court (which was run by players as well) where the player doing the crime could be punished. I have no idea how this actually worked in practice, but stuff like that is much closer to what I want from an online game rather than "ok, let's go do raids on sunday 7PM" or whatever.

Another rather disturbing aspect of that game was that your character could actually get raped (and rape others). My first thought at this was of course that the players playing were sex maniacs, horny teenagers and so on that ran around accosting each other. But when I read what people actually said about the game, it turned out that it was an extremely rare crime (like murder), and that it was viewed very very negatively "in-game" and that a player would likely run into a lot of trouble were he to do it. People seemed to really "stay in character" as much as possible. While I still find it hard to wrap my head around the idea, what I really *do* (which again, sounds really wrong when saying it) like about it is the idea that people could really affect others characters in huge ways.

 

Of course, once a game turns "mainstream", it is likely to attract all kinds of idiots which would likely ruin a lot of the experience.

[Purkake]

Unless I'm playing Ironman, I don't restart a single player game from start when a monster kills me.

 

And what game featured permadeath? I'm not slagging on the looting, or the intrigue of Eve or whatever. But permanently killing your character?

 

I enjoyed the hardcore mode of Diablo II, but 99.9% of the people weren't **** about it and the game was soooo much faster than a typical MMO that the time investment is significantly less.

 

 

I suppose it's hard to say because I didn't start playing WoW from the get go with permadeath. But at the same time, I doubt I would have bothered!

 

I meant a monster kills you in an MMO. Can't think of any permadeath MMOs off the top of my head, but Im sure there are/were some.

 

The problem I have with most MMORPGs is that it's just to much about the fighting, which is pretty much exactly the opposite of what I want from a game where the point is that you play with other players. I want the interesting interactions where people do backstab each other, form alliances and break them, gang up on one another and generally manipulate things. A carefully built game where the players are really important to what happens in the gameworld and where they can interact with each other in a meaningful way.

At the same time, I understand that people do get upset, because there is the possibility of losing what you've worked hard for and most likely spent a lot of time acquiring.

 

The most interesting online experiences I've seen are probably A Tale in the Desert and certain NWN PWs. There was also one adult MMORPG that I remember reading about, which seemed to have all kinds of neat features. Like an actual crime system where if a crime was comitted, it could be investigated by other players ingame, taken to court (which was run by players as well) where the player doing the crime could be punished. I have no idea how this actually worked in practice, but stuff like that is much closer to what I want from an online game rather than "ok, let's go do raids on sunday 7PM" or whatever.

Another rather disturbing aspect of that game was that your character could actually get raped (and rape others). My first thought at this was of course that the players playing were sex maniacs, horny teenagers and so on that ran around accosting each other. But when I read what people actually said about the game, it turned out that it was an extremely rare crime (like murder), and that it was viewed very very negatively "in-game" and that a player would likely run into a lot of trouble were he to do it. People seemed to really "stay in character" as much as possible. While I still find it hard to wrap my head around the idea, what I really *do* (which again, sounds really wrong when saying it) like about it is the idea that people could really affect others characters in huge ways.

 

Of course, once a game turns "mainstream", it is likely to attract all kinds of idiots which would likely ruin a lot of the experience.

 

That sounds like an awesome, if weird game, could someone dig up the name please? EVE has a bit more non-fight-y stuff that isn't mining or fishing. You can run your corporation which does a lot more than a regular MMO guild. For example you could make a certain type of items, laser guns, for example. You would have to have people buying/mining the raw materials, then you would need to buy/make the schematics(very expensive) for the item(s). After you make the items you would need to get them to places where people can buy them and set a price that people would actually pay for the items.

 

The contracts system in EVE is very cool in general. It is like a bulletin board with jobs like transporting things from place to place, escorting people, killing people and anyone can take the job. If you succeed then you get money, if you transport items you will have to make a deposit so that you don't just run off with the loot. It's pretty interesting.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Purkake

[Hurlshort]

Everything that Starwars stated is true and would be awesome (except maybe the rape part.)

 

Unfortunately the bulk of people that play MMO's feel the need to grind away at combat. In LotR Online, people ask me to join them to kill monsters over and over again for certain traits. I have no desire to do that. I'll kill stuff on the way to an objective, like if they are in the way or holding something I need, but I burn out super fast farming kills.

[alanschu]

Unless I'm playing Ironman, I don't restart a single player game from start when a monster kills me.

 

And what game featured permadeath? I'm not slagging on the looting, or the intrigue of Eve or whatever. But permanently killing your character?

 

I enjoyed the hardcore mode of Diablo II, but 99.9% of the people weren't **** about it and the game was soooo much faster than a typical MMO that the time investment is significantly less.

 

 

I suppose it's hard to say because I didn't start playing WoW from the get go with permadeath. But at the same time, I doubt I would have bothered!

 

I meant a monster kills you in an MMO. Can't think of any permadeath MMOs off the top of my head, but Im sure there are/were some.

 

 

The same reason why I'm okay with hardcore mode in Diablo II (even though you could be PK'd in that one too, if you weren't careful but it was easy to avoid it). Monster fights tend to not be random, unless you're careless. Furthermore, monsters tend to usually be around the same level as you, since people don't go running off into the Burning Steppes when they are level 10 and expect to live. The high level monsters also don't come in with 39 friends and wipe out whole towns, guards and all, simply to LOL.

 

However, if I'm a level 40 in Redridge Mountains, where I can sneeze at monsters to kill them, and suddenly a level 80 hell bent on slaughtering a whole bunch of other players because he finds it fun stumbles upon me, he one shots me and I die. Time to start over.

[Purkake]

Unless I'm playing Ironman, I don't restart a single player game from start when a monster kills me.

 

And what game featured permadeath? I'm not slagging on the looting, or the intrigue of Eve or whatever. But permanently killing your character?

 

I enjoyed the hardcore mode of Diablo II, but 99.9% of the people weren't **** about it and the game was soooo much faster than a typical MMO that the time investment is significantly less.

 

 

I suppose it's hard to say because I didn't start playing WoW from the get go with permadeath. But at the same time, I doubt I would have bothered!

 

I meant a monster kills you in an MMO. Can't think of any permadeath MMOs off the top of my head, but Im sure there are/were some.

 

 

The same reason why I'm okay with hardcore mode in Diablo II (even though you could be PK'd in that one too, if you weren't careful but it was easy to avoid it). Monster fights tend to not be random, unless you're careless. Furthermore, monsters tend to usually be around the same level as you, since people don't go running off into the Burning Steppes when they are level 10 and expect to live. The high level monsters also don't come in with 39 friends and wipe out whole towns, guards and all, simply to LOL.

 

However, if I'm a level 40 in Redridge Mountains, where I can sneeze at monsters to kill them, and suddenly a level 80 hell bent on slaughtering a whole bunch of other players because he finds it fun stumbles upon me, he one shots me and I die. Time to start over.

 

Yeah, tell that to the lightning enchanted, cold enchanted, stoneskin monster that will kill you before you notice it

 

I can see the difference, but having people be able to kill you all the time makes the game a little more realistic and exiting. I'm not saying that permadeath is the way to go, but having severe consequences for death would be nice.(not just some % XP/gold loss which you can get back by more grinding)

[Starwars]

I can't remember the name of the game atm (I don't even know if it exists anymore since it seemed to be such a small game), if it pops up in my head I'll post it. But just so you know, the reason I held off on trying it is also that it *was* rather focused on teh sexx0rz stuff (some of which was rather tasteless) which don't appeal to me much in a game. But I was rather impressed with how people handled it based on what I read. And I really liked some of the additional ideas beyond that, even though I don't know how well they worked in practice.

[Purkake]

I can't remember the name of the game atm (I don't even know if it exists anymore since it seemed to be such a small game), if it pops up in my head I'll post it. But just so you know, the reason I held off on trying it is also that it *was* rather focused on teh sexx0rz stuff (some of which was rather tasteless) which don't appeal to me much in a game. But I was rather impressed with how people handled it based on what I read. And I really liked some of the additional ideas beyond that, even though I don't know how well they worked in practice.

 

So it wasn't Second Life?

 

I wasn't really looking to play it anyway, just look it up.

[Calax]

And don't tell me you don't want to run around naked and fight. I know you all dream of it.

... I have been known in WoW to have my character tanking in a dress becuse of the rage mechanic. WoW is interesting in that you can overgear instances pretty easily, and that can bring around alot of problems for Warriors in particular (who scale with Gear the most out of all the classes) because of the way our rage mechanic works. Basically we get hit and get rage, also if we do damage we get rage but not as much as getting smacked around. The problem arises when you try to tank things of a much lower gear level than you, because you don't take enough damage to get your rage to a comfortable level to allow you to pull of some of your abilities. Hence overgeared warriors usually take off various items of clothing to get their stats down low enough that they don't have rage problems.

 

This only happens to warriors btw, everyone else is able to overgear an instance and not have to worry about mana/energy/rune usage.

[Hurlshort]

One of the best things LotR Online added was cosmetic outfits. Basically you have all your armor on, but you have other slots for cosmetic outfits that don't affect stats but look much better. It's great for covering up all that mismatched armor.

[Deraldin]

Ow. My poor little Vexor just got blowed up and then I got pod killed. I was mission running in low sec space when after jumping through one gate I was immediately targeted by a group of about a dozen battlecruisers compared to me one little cruiser. At least I haven't sold my Frigate or Destroyer yet so those are still around for me to continue mission running in while I try to rebuild my finances. My insurance only covered half the value of my ship, but none of it's cargo or other equipment. I need another 1.7 million ISK just to replace the ship and probably about that much again to outfit it with some decent gear.