Another massive Eve Online theft.

[Rhomal]

Kotaku: Eve Online Banker robs from the rich to give to himself.

Massively: Eve Online player embezzles over 80 billion isk from Dynasty Ban.

 

Isn't this sort of like crying about getting PK'ed and someone looting your body before you got back to it in UO? Or a better example are the player run 'banks' in secondlife that disappeared overnight along with the virtual money. Technicalities are different but the principal is the same.

 

If the server was hacked or used a exploit then that's one thing. But just like no one held a gun to a player in secondlife head to deposit their lindens with this 'bank', nor is their any guarantee your corpse will still have all your phat l00t in UO, same here. They gambled in game and lost. Suck it up and stop crying.

[Gfted1]

Wait, in Ultima Online your corpse can be looted by random passer by's until your "ghost" gets back to it!?!? Thats crazy. Although I suppose you could just lurk around other people doing battle and just gank the hell out of them when they die. Still, that one feature alone ensures I will never play that game.

[Walsingham]

I don't play MMOs, but if I did I'd like to think I wasn't being playpenned. I'd want to know that somewhere people where doing financial deals etc. I mean, that stuff happens in the real world, but it doesn't stop you going surfing at the weekend.

 

I think it's cool, anyway. I'd rather such people got high doing scams in a virtual world than in the real one.

[Hurlshort]

Wait, in Ultima Online your corpse can be looted by random passer by's until your "ghost" gets back to it!?!? Thats crazy. Although I suppose you could just lurk around other people doing battle and just gank the hell out of them when they die. Still, that one feature alone ensures I will never play that game.

 

UO had two types of shards (I think it was called) on every server. One shard was happy and carefree with flowers blooming and everyone working together for the greater good. The other shard was filled with angst ridden puppy kickers, had open PvP and you could actually pickpocket good stuff off people. It still is the most hardcore PvP game out there.

[Rhomal]

Wait, in Ultima Online your corpse can be looted by random passer by's until your "ghost" gets back to it!?!? Thats crazy. Although I suppose you could just lurk around other people doing battle and just gank the hell out of them when they die. Still, that one feature alone ensures I will never play that game.

 

UO is hard core on that level and thats why I liked it. None of this candy coated, hold you by the hand death means little MMO's today. In UO (and EQ if I recall correctly) death could have serious repercussions, as it should.

[Gfted1]

UO had two types of shards (I think it was called) on every server. One shard was happy and carefree with flowers blooming and everyone working together for the greater good. The other shard was filled with angst ridden puppy kickers, had open PvP and you could actually pickpocket good stuff off people. It still is the most hardcore PvP game out there.

 

 

UO is hard core on that level and thats why I liked it. None of this candy coated, hold you by the hand death means little MMO's today. In UO (and EQ if I recall correctly) death could have serious repercussions, as it should.

 

Wow, thats too hardcore for me. Imagine the time it takes to get kickass gear vs dying once and being stripped clean by a pack of piranah's.

 

IIRC, dying in EQ involved losing experience, even to the point of dropping you a level if you lost enough. Thats an acceptable consequence IMO.

[Purkake]

UO had two types of shards (I think it was called) on every server. One shard was happy and carefree with flowers blooming and everyone working together for the greater good. The other shard was filled with angst ridden puppy kickers, had open PvP and you could actually pickpocket good stuff off people. It still is the most hardcore PvP game out there.

 

 

UO is hard core on that level and thats why I liked it. None of this candy coated, hold you by the hand death means little MMO's today. In UO (and EQ if I recall correctly) death could have serious repercussions, as it should.

 

Wow, thats too hardcore for me. Imagine the time it takes to get kickass gear vs dying once and being stripped clean by a pack of piranah's.

 

IIRC, dying in EQ involved losing experience, even to the point of dropping you a level if you lost enough. Thats an acceptable consequence IMO.

 

Yeah, but that also makes it more exiting, you never know what comes next. Also it makes you care more about your hard earned equipment. I think that it was way cooler back in the day, now it's all just a happy utopia with no consequences, it kinda kills the thrill of getting ganked and mugged.

[Hurlshort]

Wow, thats too hardcore for me. Imagine the time it takes to get kickass gear vs dying once and being stripped clean by a pack of piranah's.

 

IIRC, dying in EQ involved losing experience, even to the point of dropping you a level if you lost enough. Thats an acceptable consequence IMO.

 

I think you need to understand how different the loot system is in UO compared to a game like WoW. It isn't really a gear-centric game like WoW, it's focused on skills and building those skills. There also isn't some end game armor that you work for days to get. Nothing is really bound to the player, so you have a lot of good weapons and armor floating around. Sure, you might lose a good set of gear, but you probably have a few sets sitting in chests back at your house.

 

In Asheron's Call, I used to always have two sets of armor on my character. When you died, you would need to go back and get your corpse to retrieve some of your armor. They were called corpse runs and they could be quite insane, but I loved them.

 

I'd love an MMO with permadeath. It would just need to have a lot of low level content to keep me interested in re-leveling.

[Gfted1]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

[Purkake]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

 

If there were consequences for death, maybe people would think twice before running headfirst into a random battle. Also running a way is always an option. People are just spoiled these days.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Purkake

[Aristes]

If they made it central to the design and implemented it properly, it could be cool. Gfted is right. It's too easy to die. I really don't like games that allow folks to grief one another. It's just not fun. In a game like Warhammer or Eve, where you know the score, it's okay. If you go into a game where you know that it's not random griefing but the other payers are required to kill you, that's different.

 

And I don't think I'll ever play a game where other players can grief my gear from me. Okay, maybe if they could take my inspirations in CoH, I wouldn't care. ...But City of heroes doesn't have gear at all. It has powers and you put buffs into your powers. It wouldn't make sense for folks to steal your buffs anyhow.

 

The fact is, most folks in any MMORPG I've ever played have been pretty decent. Yeah, every now and then folks can get nasty, but most folks aren't. I'm not counting a game where the intention is to kill the other side, which is NOT true of WoW, even on a PvP server. Even then, if you go onto a PvP server, you know a lot of folks will be gunning for you. Hell, I mine ore in Wintergrasp all the time on WoW and I've only had someone attack me once. ...And that was right after we fought over the place and my side won.

 

There is a market for a game where folks are intentionally really nasty and the whole point of the game is to grief other players. It's just not going to have the kind of broad appeal that a game like WoW does where folks generally don't grief each other, even in different factions. However, just because we call ourselves hardcore gamers doesn't mean that "hardcore" games, ones that allow you to be the biggest prick in the neighborhood, are better.

 

And a game that allows any sort of nasty thing the players want to do to each other encourages folks to be nasty to one another. First of all, because it drives away players who don't like to be griefed, it attracts a higher number of folks who like to grief. The importance of questing and exploring are diminished while griefing as a goal in and of itself becomes a primary draw for a lot of players.

 

Hey, I don't care that you enjoy a game like that, but it's not for me.

[Purkake]

If they made it central to the design and implemented it properly, it could be cool. Gfted is right. It's too easy to die. I really don't like games that allow folks to grief one another. It's just not fun. In a game like Warhammer or Eve, where you know the score, it's okay. If you go into a game where you know that it's not random griefing but the other payers are required to kill you, that's different.

 

And I don't think I'll ever play a game where other players can grief my gear from me. Okay, maybe if they could take my inspirations in CoH, I wouldn't care. ...But City of heroes doesn't have gear at all. It has powers and you put buffs into your powers. It wouldn't make sense for folks to steal your buffs anyhow.

 

The fact is, most folks in any MMORPG I've ever played have been pretty decent. Yeah, every now and then folks can get nasty, but most folks aren't. I'm not counting a game where the intention is to kill the other side, which is NOT true of WoW, even on a PvP server. Even then, if you go onto a PvP server, you know a lot of folks will be gunning for you. Hell, I mine ore in Wintergrasp all the time on WoW and I've only had someone attack me once. ...And that was right after we fought over the place and my side won.

 

There is a market for a game where folks are intentionally really nasty and the whole point of the game is to grief other players. It's just not going to have the kind of broad appeal that a game like WoW does where folks generally don't grief each other, even in different factions. However, just because we call ourselves hardcore gamers doesn't mean that "hardcore" games, ones that allow you to be the biggest prick in the neighborhood, are better.

 

And a game that allows any sort of nasty thing the players want to do to each other encourages folks to be nasty to one another. First of all, because it drives away players who don't like to be griefed, it attracts a higher number of folks who like to grief. The importance of questing and exploring are diminished while griefing as a goal in and of itself becomes a primary draw for a lot of players.

 

Hey, I don't care that you enjoy a game like that, but it's not for me.

 

Aww, griefing is the best part. It breaks up the monotony and is generally fun. If you get frustrated over this then you might want to remind yourself that it is just a game.

[Hurlshort]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

 

If there were consequences for death, maybe people would think twice before running headfirst into a random battle. Also running a way is always an option. People are just spoiled these days.

 

Playing on permadeath NWN servers really made me play completely different. There was a tangible fear of any combat encounter. I knew in the early levels that every time I drew my sword I had a pretty good chance of getting killed. I was more cautious, and picked my fights very carefully. That is totally missing in most MMO's. Death is just a little road bump.

 

At least having to do a corpse run makes you a bit more aware of your surroundings.

[Aristes]

If you enjoy griefing, then I could suggest you get out more. ...Or I could say it's easy to grief online where someone won't pop you a few times in the mouth for being a prick. See, we can both trivialize each other's position if we really want. I was intentionally not making a value statement about folks who enjoy griefing.

 

My point is that encouraging griefing is not going to broaden your player base. I'm not making a value statement about griefers. It's simply clear to me that griefing as an end goal in a game will not give it the sort of base that WoW has at this point.

[Rhomal]

And I don't think I'll ever play a game where other players can grief my gear from me.

 

Correction; thats not 'griefing'. Looting a corpse is part of the gameplay. While the lootie may not like the fact someone came upon their corpse and took their gold or sword of ruin thats not going out of their way to spoil your experience, which is the correct defination of being a griefer (such as rez killing or ganking newbies).

[Hurlshort]

Permadeath actually works to curb griefing (or just random killing) because most of the lamers wash out pretty quickly when they realize their uber character will get killed. Griefers tend to die...a lot. They make enemies, they misjudge a potential victim...they just don't last long.

[Aristes]

No, that is griefing which is built into the gameplay. That was my point. If you put in something like that, then you are encouraging griefing by making it part and parcel of the game.

 

Hey, if you like UO, go play it. With my blessings. I'll play WoW and you can play UO and we'll both be happy.

 

And that's a good point about death, hurl.

 

In this thread, I'm griefing you guys. lol. Seriously, I try to be one of those "decent people." I'm not trying to insult you guys, I'm just commenting on the game I'd prefer.

 

Permadeath has the most appeal to me, but only in a game that carefully implements and supports the concept.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Aristes

[Purkake]

If you enjoy griefing, then I could suggest you get out more. ...Or I could say it's easy to grief online where someone won't pop you a few times in the mouth for being a prick. See, we can both trivialize each other's position if we really want. I was intentionally not making a value statement about folks who enjoy griefing.

 

My point is that encouraging griefing is not going to broaden your player base. I'm not making a value statement about griefers. It's simply clear to me that griefing as an end goal in a game will not give it the sort of base that WoW has at this point.

 

Griefing is only fun because people react to it. There are different servers, if you want to have happy candy land then there are non-PvP servers. Whining about getting griefed on a PvP server is just stupid.

 

Also griefing has never been an end goal in any MMO that I know of. It is just something that can happen to you to make the game bit more realistic.

 

EDIT: as Hurlshot said, having consequences for death actually reduces the player killing. Bringing it back to EVE, when you kill other players you gain negative reputation and people can put a bounty on your head. So if you kill enough people you will get killed on sight unless you stay in the lawless areas and then you will still have to watch out for bounty hunters.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Purkake

[alanschu]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

 

If there were consequences for death, maybe people would think twice before running headfirst into a random battle. Also running a way is always an option. People are just spoiled these days.

 

 

Running away isn't always an option though. If you come across some super high level dude that has super fast mounts, well then I guess it sucks to be you.

[Purkake]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

 

If there were consequences for death, maybe people would think twice before running headfirst into a random battle. Also running a way is always an option. People are just spoiled these days.

 

 

Running away isn't always an option though. If you come across some super high level dude that has super fast mounts, well then I guess it sucks to be you.

 

Yeah, then the idea would be to try to avoid people who can kill you in seconds. If you can't then you are at their mercy.

[Gfted1]

I can see everyones points wrt permadeath and PvP looting. It probably would be much more exciting having the proverbial Sword of Damocles always hanging over you, but to me thats not long term fun. Sure I love the thrill of a well fought or barely survived battle but those penalties would ruin it for me very quickly. For gods sake, Im the highest level possible and I die daily!

[Rhomal]

No, that is griefing which is built into the gameplay. That was my point. If you put in something like that, then you are encouraging griefing by making it part and parcel of the game.

 

Again you are misusing the term. Just becasue YOU do not like a aspect does not equate to being griefed by the accepted defination. Once again being griefed means when player A goes out of his or her way to harrass player B usually not within the accpected conduct or gameplay of the world. Looting is a default mechanic of UO and certain player run servers like nwn1/2. Thus thats the same as complaining about someone building a house next to your lot in secondlife spoiling you view. er... its their lot now and if you wanted to keep the view you should have bought it yourself, so tough. Same difference here you choose to play in a game where it within the scope of the game to loot dead bodies. Its not griefing by defination as it is a. not out of the scope of the game rules or b. not a 'undocumented feature'. When you play on a such a server you know that is a possibility.

 

Now if you want to make up your own meaning to the word all the power to you, I am simply saying by in large you are misusing the accepted meaning of the term. I'll leave it at that.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Rhomal

[Rhomal]

On a side note I want to say the looting of dead bodies was not as bad as it may sound. If you were grouping with a party your friends would guard your body if no one could rez you. Also on RP player run shards most players would give the peep 5 or 10 mins to return if they came across a body before looting it. (unless said player was playing a rogue or similar type PC). So it really wasn't if you die you are going to loose all your items and gold no matter what. Generally speaking you prob got looted ~10 to 15% of the time from my expereinces. Unless you solo'ed a lot then yes.. you prob going to get looted more.

 

Also to add tot hat there was a decay rate of about 20mins. So not only did you have to run back to your body if no one was guarding it but if you got there too late you lost your items anyways! lol Generally speaking again if you with friends they would loot your body for you to save your items. But it did add another level of urgency! lol

 

As for the permadeath topic.. not a huge fan of it but I can see the attraction for some players, however heavy death penalities should be enforced IMO. Such as loosing 5% xp, or 10% of your money.. or both.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Rhomal

[Gfted1]

Also on RP player run shards most players would give the peep 5 or 10 mins to return if they came across a body before looting it.

 

Also to add tot hat there was a decay rate of about 20mins.

 

Interesting. As Im sure you know, when you die in WoW you rez as a ghost at the closest graveyard and have to run back to your body. This usually takes less then 2-3 minutes unless youre in the bowels of a dungeon. How does the rezing mechanic work in these games that it potentially takes that long to get back to your body?

Edited January 26, 2009 by Gfted1

[alanschu]

But its just too easy to die for there to be permadeath. I think it would be really frustrating to have to start over and over every time a battle didnt go your way. Even against like-leveled opponents, one unlucky crit and its back to the character generation screen. If there is to be a death penalty, I like EQ's method (XP loss).

 

If there were consequences for death, maybe people would think twice before running headfirst into a random battle. Also running a way is always an option. People are just spoiled these days.

 

 

Running away isn't always an option though. If you come across some super high level dude that has super fast mounts, well then I guess it sucks to be you.

 

Yeah, then the idea would be to try to avoid people who can kill you in seconds. If you can't then you are at their mercy.

 

 

Yeah, because it's cool to lose a lot of play time and investment (not to mention friends of the same level) because some level 80 guy with gear and abilities that ensure you'll never touch him come running around. How pray tell, do I avoid him if I'm to actually play the game and do anything?

 

Tell you what, just delete your character after you die and you can do just that. Should make the current MMO's more exhilarating for you.