Mass Effect 2 to appear in GDC

[Meshugger]

In order to answers Hurlshot's question: I also found ME to be incredibly unintersting and dull compared to KotOR.

 

KotOR was a cheesy game with a cheesy Star Wars mythos. It didn't try to be something else, which is the reason why it succeeded. Morality was a very simplistic concept, dressed in black & white. Good, bad or really bad, the characters in KotOR were characters, like a homage, like the characters of Leone's westerns were to those of Ford. It simply 'clicked'.

 

Mass Effect however, was serious. Very serious, almost stoic. It tried to be grand and larger-than-life. Instead, it was C.S.I. in space. Bland, boring and it failed to keep anyones interest, which was also reflected on the art design and on what kind of races and respective history that existed. It doesn't matter if there are choices of sacrifice or whether a character shows some development, since they failed to be interesting in the very first place.

Wrex

who?

Ashley

and

Kaiden's

fate was decided with a coinflip, and i don't even remember the rest. I cannot recall the times when i wanted to see some raw emotion from these guys, who more resembled teenagers who try to act calm, cool and 'mature'. If a character like the joker would've appeared during mid-game and carved a smile on their faces, i would've laughed hysterically and applauding Bioware for introducing a setting as a practical joke.

 

But that didn't happen of course, which in turn didn't make it to 'click' for me. RPG-elements, level-design and combat is irrelevant if the game fails on its very core fundamentals (for me). I am all for trying to set a serious or more mature tone, but that ME failed utterly and completely on that part.

 

KotOR wins despite of Carth. At least i hated the guy instead of not giving a damn at all.

[Aristes]

"I would continue this discussion with you, but it's clear you support national socialism so all of your points are invalid."

 

How dare you call me a naz--

 

Ohhhhh. You almost got me on THAT one!

 

Anyhow, it's really Gromnir's straw man, not mine. He's the clever one with the Crusader for Truth thing. I just thought it sounded funny. It's always Gromnir with the clever lines. Damn it.

 

I'm not going to fight with you over the issue though. First of all, I have no real animosity for you. Second of all, I'm not sturdy enough to endure several pages of back and forth.

[Volourn]

"Bland, boring and it failed to keep anyones interest"

 

O RLY? anyone? ANYONE? *ANYONE*? A N Y O N E A N Y O N E A N Y O N E?

[Meshugger]

"Bland, boring and it failed to keep anyones interest"

 

O RLY? anyone? ANYONE? *ANYONE*? A N Y O N E A N Y O N E A N Y O N E?

 

My appologies, i meant mine interest, as in me.

[Gorth]

"Bland, boring and it failed to keep anyones interest"

 

O RLY? anyone? ANYONE? *ANYONE*? A N Y O N E A N Y O N E A N Y O N E?

Was just waiting for you to turn up and tell them how NWN1 is superior to both Kotor and ME

[Nightshape]

[didactic (okay so this meta tag is pretty sarcastic)]

In the age of asset outsourcing (something which is becoming more and more common for larger companies), you can't always have this perfect desire scenario of artist and level designer working as one unit.

 

Feed/Teach Man->Fish

 

You can't always have good collaboration between well-informed and educated coworkers operating in a professional manner with a communal interest in aesthetic quality when you first wake up in the morning. GET ME MY COFFEE AND A WELL-OILED CREATIVE TEAM COLLABORATING IN REAL TIME WITH THE FORESIGHT TO SELF MANAGE THEMSELVES AND UNLIMITED PROGRAMMING RESOURCES TO SUPPORT THEM ALSO I LIKE SOME WHISKEY IN MY COFFEE THANKS!!1111

 

But if you cultivate that sort of thing, you'll find it happens more than it does not.

 

People rise to the challenge.

 

Most people prefer to get engaged in their work product if they are properly managed.

 

Outsourcing the art with some direction designed to provide consistency and level designers ignoring visuals and aesthetics might suffice in some circumstances, but it's not going to predictably produce quality levels.

 

I'll end with some mealy-mouthed sentimentalism: People often meet your expectations, no matter how low.

 

Expect little of people, and you will get little. Expect a lot of people, and sometimes you will still get little, but sometimes you will get lots. The net gain in expecting a lot of people is, therefore, apparent.

 

[/didactic]

 

 

... I think you missed what I was getting at, you can't have them in the same room meaning that fast iteration of assets isn't an option, that doesn't mean anyone lowered any expectations. I'm not certain at what you're getting at.

[Tigranes]

NWN OC > KOTOR & ME. Period.

 

ROOFLES!

[Nightshape]

NWN OC > KOTOR & ME. Period.

 

ROOFLES!

 

ARF!

[Llyranor]

It seems Wrath was just a pawn of Magical Volo, sent by him to distract us from the true threat.

[Hurlshort]

See Meshugger, you gave a solid, reasonable answer as to why you liked one over the other. I might not agree with it, but I can see where you are coming from. I can't make any sense whatsoever of Wrath of Dagon's criticism. It's too nitpicky, I suppose.

[Nightshape]

It's not KOTOR 3, that appears to be his problem...

[Llyranor]

At least he can look forward to the awesome KOTOR MMO!!!!

[Morgoth]

Oh, how's the state of things pertaining to a Kotor 3 made by Obsidian? Do we know anything new about that? I guess not.

[mkreku]

You are attempting to spin my statements into something they are not.

That's the only thing he ever does. It's really not worth trying to decipher his failed role-playing grammar for that.

[Hurlshort]

I've never actually read any of Gromnir's posts.

[Wrath of Dagon]

OK, I'll try again. People who are saying ME is as good or better or the same as KOTOR are missing the point of KOTOR. The point was to flesh out the Star Wars universe. You learn what Jedi are like, and the Sith, and Czerka, you see how the Wookies live and what the Sand people are all about. And you do it all through gameplay, you actually participate, instead of just reading boring facts in the Codex. ME has none of that, Tali bores you with her stories but you never go to a Quarian ship, or do something to help the flotilla, or get involved with Quarians in any way. Same with Krogan, you never interact with any except Wrex. ME is all about Saren's stupid plot, and nothing else. In addition, the planets have nothing to do but linearly shoot your way from one end to the other. Also I agree with Meshugger, especially about the kinds of decision you make, and that is because you make those decisions in a gameplay vacuum. So understand, just because ME recycled some characters and ideas from KOTOR, doesn't make it anything like KOTOR, or even near the same quality.

[Kaftan Barlast]

OK, I'll try again. People who are saying ME is as good or better or the same as KOTOR are missing the point of KOTOR. The point was to flesh out the Star Wars universe. You learn what Jedi are like, and the Sith, and Czerka, you see how the Wookies live and what the Sand people are all about. And you do it all through gameplay, you actually participate, instead of just reading boring facts in the Codex. ME has none of that, Tali bores you with her stories but you never go to a Quarian ship, or do something to help the flotilla, or get involved with Quarians in any way. Same with Krogan, you never interact with any except Wrex. ME is all about Saren's stupid plot, and nothing else. In addition, the planets have nothing to do but linearly shoot your way from one end to the other. Also I agree with Meshugger, especially about the kinds of decision you make, and that is because you make those decisions in a gameplay vacuum. So understand, just because ME recycled some characters and ideas from KOTOR, doesn't make it anything like KOTOR, or even near the same quality.

 

 

I disagree with everything you say. I may be somewhat of a Mass Effect fanclub member, but it quite evident that you're just complaining because ME didnt rub you the KOTOR way. Its all just a bunch of completely useless opinions, and there is no point in debating for or against a personal opinion.

[Gromnir]

"I would continue this discussion with you, but it's clear you support national socialism so all of your points are invalid."

 

How dare you call me a naz--

 

Ohhhhh. You almost got me on THAT one!

 

Anyhow, it's really Gromnir's straw man, not mine. He's the clever one with the Crusader for Truth thing. I just thought it sounded funny. It's always Gromnir with the clever lines. Damn it.

 

I'm not going to fight with you over the issue though. First of all, I have no real animosity for you. Second of all, I'm not sturdy enough to endure several pages of back and forth.

 

 

am not sure what the link is 'tween national socialism and Gromnir's accusation that Mackland were Crusading for Truth? is tough to pin that on Gromnir.

 

nevertheless, the notion that Gromnir did spinning is silly.

 

"I'm not interested in ceding the gaming forums of the world to a cabal of trolls promoting an illogical tyranny of hyperbole.

 

"Misinformation unchallenged becomes information."

 

mackland expressed disbelief that a fellow developer would avoid internet board posting, and supplied the aforementioned as his own raison for posting... then went and accused Gromnir of hyperbole.

 

...

 

HA!

 

wacky stuff.

 

is amusing that mk would accuse us o' spin following our previous encounter... not that Gromnir can take credit. Di were genuine the one who pretty much gutted you, though that weren't her intent, and you did set yourself up to be filleted. thanks for the continued laughs.

 

am willing to keep this 'bout kotor if anybody else wishes to do so.

 

vol likes mass effect. vol likes pie.

 

don't expect a great deal of insight from vol regarding why me is a good game.

 

heck, don't expect a great deal of insight from Gromnir on why me is a good game as it were merely a moderate enjoyable game for us. am not sure why kotor should be the measuring stick for me, but if kotor is the measure, then we thinks me bears up admirably. as mentioned already, both me and kotor has weak combat and the character building choices seems to have little impact on gameplay. even so, both games is story-driven to a great degree, so if you like kotor story and hate me story, then chances are you thinks kotor is a better game, regardless o' things like level design and combat n' such.

 

Gromnir thought kotor story were clever, with an intentional re imagining o' the story arc from the original 3 star wars movies. seems like an obvious approach for a writer/developer to take with a star wars game, but only in retrospect.

 

me story were traditional epic fare, but unlike wrath, we thinks that the characters were not only more developed in me than in kotor, but they were more human as well... regardless of their race. plot is always gonna be silly in epic fantasy fare, so it not surprise Gromnir that me plot seemed hard to swallow, 'cause that is the norm. if you empathize with characters (villains and heroes,) then shortcomings in plot become negligible. me characters weren't compelling enough for us to complete forget plot shortcomings, but Gromnir thought bioware did no worse in me than in kotor with basic story elements.

 

biggest difference 'tween kotor and me: kotor were a star wars game and me was not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 13, 2009 by Gromnir

[Wrath of Dagon]

I completely disagree about ME companions. You only got to talk to them on the Normandy, and they only had a few convos, and they really weren't interesting at all. May be Ashley would've been OK if she didn't clam up early. I did like how they made context sensitive comments though, hopefully more RPG's will start doing that.

[Meshugger]

See Meshugger, you gave a solid, reasonable answer as to why you liked one over the other. I might not agree with it, but I can see where you are coming from. I can't make any sense whatsoever of Wrath of Dagon's criticism. It's too nitpicky, I suppose.

 

Frankly, i don't really understand his reasons either. As you said, maybe less nitpicking.

 

It's not KOTOR 3, that appears to be his problem...

 

You assume too much. I just didn't like a game that i played.

[Morgoth]

Now I agree that Kotor did a better job at letting the PC get involved into the history and culture of different alien nations. Something that I personally missed a bit in ME. There was some story from Liara about how the Asari reproduce, but I didn't get a chance to learn something about the Salarians or Turians. OTOH, ME was differently paced, alot faster and more action orientated, so I'm not sure it would have made sense to interrupt the player with all that codex stuff while shooting Geth in the face. Still, I wish I get to know a bit more about the universe in ME2, and I mean not through panels.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Morgoth

[Gromnir]

not only were the me characters more human than the cookie cutter kotor incarnations (which were largely intentional in kotor, but still irksome) the fact that they rare spoke off the normandy were an advantage. a common complaint following kotor were that the jnpcs seemingly chose worst possible times to initiate inappropriate dialogues. no doubt this is the reason why kotor 2 and me both moved most dialogues to the stronghold/ships... aluminum falcon or normandy or whatever.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

Now I agree that Kotor did a better job at letting the PC get involved into the history and culture of different alien nations. Something that I personally missed a bit in ME. There was some story from Liara about how the Asari reproduce, but I didn't get a chance to learn something about the Salarians or Turians. OTOH, ME was differently paced, alot faster and more action orientated, so I'm not sure it would made have sense to interrupt the player with all that codex stuff like it worked in Kotor. Still, I wish I get to know a bit more about the universe in ME2, and I mean not through panels.

 

 

kotor gave you some interaction with the fisheads, but what other race did you get similar interaction? not the sand people or wookies. by the same token, you did get a good deal o' history from me regarding the rachni and the krogan, asari and protheans. heck, Gromnir learned far more 'bout quarians from me than we did 'bout wookies or the tentacle head (mission vao) people in kotor.

 

me were starting from scratch with most o' the alien races where as kotor assumed that player had some pre-existing knowledge.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Did you forget that the whole plot of Kashyyk was liberating the Wookies? That wasn't interaction?

 

Edit: You did talk to the Rachni, but that was one conversation. Everything you learned about the Quarians you learned from Tali's tales or from the Codex, there was no related gameplay. Is gameplay only important to me, the rest of you just absorb info and don't care in what form it arrives, perhaps that's the source of the disconnect.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gromnir]

Did you forget that the whole plot of Kashyyk was liberating the Wookies? That wasn't interaction?

 

 

interaction? yeah, but morgoth were talking 'bout history and culture 'n such. you learn much 'bout wookie culture from your wookie companion... or during entire stay on kashykk? HA!

 

heck, add in geth, sovereign and that plant thingie in me and you got far more meaningful interaction with alien species in me than in kotor. kotor mostly assumed you knew history and background... me not have that luxury and didn't take such shortcuts.

 

"Everything you learned about the Quarians you learned from Tali's tales or from the Codex, there was no related gameplay."

 

patently untrue. the history of geth and quarian were inextricably intertwined. our encounters with and regarding geth were also informative about quarians. byw, our initial encounter with tali were on the citadel after which we got some considerable info regarding the geth and the flotilla 'n such.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 13, 2009 by Gromnir