Mass Effect 2 to appear in GDC

[Wrath of Dagon]

You could kill Jihani and she wouldn't be in your party at all. Also whenever you select a Force power, it impacts gameplay, so what?

 

Edit: Actually Wrex doesn't start out as ice cold, he's whining about the genophage from the beginning, he's a sheep in wolf's clothing, er, I mean Carth in Canderous clothing.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Deadly_Nightshade]

No, it's a badly made game, no question about it. It's not my fault some people can't distinguish between good and bad.

 

So you are an infallible being who knows with absolute certainly what is "good" and what is "bad"?

[Tigranes]

No, it's a badly made game, no question about it.

 

I'm not a subscriber to the postmodern crusade, so sure, it is possible to say that a game is simply bad, no 'opinion' about it. But uh, in those cases you don't follow that up with comments like "Wrex's stories are real boring but Canderous' stories are real good". It's like you're doing your very best to make all your evidence sound like subjective opinion.

 

Are there logical inconsistencies or jumps in ME? Concrete examples of poor implementation, contradiction or so forth? Errors, signs of lack of polish?

 

Although, Uncharted Worlds... yeah, I don't see how anybody can like them.

 

ME has completely pointless stories and conversations, while everything in KOTOR is well thought out and fleshes out the Universe.

 

From only what Calax has mentioned in this thread, ME seems at least as thought out as KOTOR. Or is that not the case in-game?

[Wrath of Dagon]

No, it's a badly made game, no question about it. It's not my fault some people can't distinguish between good and bad.

 

So you are an infallible being who knows with absolute certainly what is "good" and what is "bad"?

Finally you're getting it.

[Wrath of Dagon]

No, it's a badly made game, no question about it.

 

I'm not a subscriber to the postmodern crusade, so sure, it is possible to say that a game is simply bad, no 'opinion' about it. But uh, in those cases you don't follow that up with comments like "Wrex's stories are real boring but Canderous' stories are real good". It's like you're doing your very best to make all your evidence sound like subjective opinion.

Look, sooner or later it's going to come down to subjective opinion. Either a story is good or it's not. Sure you can parse things into finer and finer detail, but eventually you'll have to make a subjective opinion if that detail is good or bad. So eventually you just have to see for yourself. If someone likes one dialog quests, or where your whole assignment is to shut off a water valve, what can I say to that?

 

Are there logical inconsistencies or jumps in ME? Concrete examples of poor implementation, contradiction or so forth? Errors, signs of lack of polish?

Those are more objective measures, but still those aren't the only things that make a game bad. Yes, the story is awful and non-sensical.

Does a smart guy like Saren really thinks he'll be spared? Why is he attracting so much attention to himself when all he needs to do is secretely bring the Reapers back?

And many other issues. I already posted the description of the design process to try to show lack of quality. Obviously they're just throwing in filler instead of doing a real design. But really the problem to me is just the lack of gameplay, there's literally nothing interesting to do in that game except shoot, shoot and shoot.

 

ME has completely pointless stories and conversations, while everything in KOTOR is well thought out and fleshes out the Universe.

 

From only what Calax has mentioned in this thread, ME seems at least as thought out as KOTOR. Or is that not the case in-game?

IMO, absolutely not. I've never seen anything so half-baked and amateurish.

[Calax]

You could kill Jihani and she wouldn't be in your party at all. Also whenever you select a Force power, it impacts gameplay, so what?

 

Edit: Actually Wrex doesn't start out as ice cold, he's whining about the genophage from the beginning, he's a sheep in wolf's clothing, er, I mean Carth in Canderous clothing.

The thing about the Juhani choice is that if you killed her you wouldn't even know what you were missing. Both Kaiden and Ash were Romance options. Also Both Kaiden and Ash were useful. In K1 I usually ran around with Jolee and Bastila or when bastila was unavailable I'd cram the wookie in there.

 

So yes you could kill Juhani but it was a largely bleached choice because she didn't have a personality that you knew of yet. The thing about Wrex is that while he whines about the Genophage from the beginning, by the end of the tale he has to get over that. Carth didn't have to get over squat.

[Calax]

Are there logical inconsistencies or jumps in ME? Concrete examples of poor implementation, contradiction or so forth? Errors, signs of lack of polish?

Those are more objective measures, but still those aren't the only things that make a game bad. Yes, the story is awful and non-sensical.

Does a smart guy like Saren really thinks he'll be spared? Why is he attracting so much attention to himself when all he needs to do is secretely bring the Reapers back?

And many other issues. I already posted the description of the design process to try to show lack of quality. Obviously they're just throwing in filler instead of doing a real design. But really the problem to me is just the lack of gameplay, there's literally nothing interesting to do in that game except shoot, shoot and shoot.

Did you even play ME?

Saren is doing what ANYONE would do when faced with annihilation. He's trying to survive. People can't live without hope, Sovereign makes it clear that there is no hope, and Saren bought into that and decided to try to at least spare a few by helping Sovereign. As to his attracting attention, the only reason anyone knew what he was doing was because Shepard practically fell right on top of him during an operation. Seriously if Shepard hadn't appeared on Eden prime and learned what he did there, the galaxy as a whole wouldn't have had a chance because Saren would have an army of Krogans, the Geth, a unit of asarii commando's, and the Sovereign to attack and take control of the Citadel. Hell he almost succeeded. Only the fact that Shepard was one step behind Saren saved Citadel space. If Shepard hadn't stumbled upon Saren's actions on Eden Prime, Saren would been able to easily take control and summon the other Reapers.

 

 

You need to learn to actually play a game before you try to tear it down.

 

ME has completely pointless stories and conversations, while everything in KOTOR is well thought out and fleshes out the Universe.

 

From only what Calax has mentioned in this thread, ME seems at least as thought out as KOTOR. Or is that not the case in-game?

IMO, absolutely not. I've never seen anything so half-baked and amateurish.

 

Again, you obviously haven't even touched the Codex. KotOR was easy to put together because you didn't have to do much thinking about how things worked. It's F'n star wars, I haven't seen a technological breakthough in Star Wars since it was created. Hell, half the tales in Star Wars have so many personality inconsistencies that it's not even funny. The writers of Mass Effect actually went through and put together a pretty good version of the future. They thought almost everything through to a degree I have yet to see in another area that isn't 30 years old.

 

So explain why you think things are half baked and amaturish. Seriously, I have yet to see you actually try to give evidence of Mass Effects "crappyness" beyond statements without substance.

 

Go ahead, throw out some evidence that's actually worth reading rather than "I like". Give examples, try to put them up against their Kotor versions. Also give more evidence than a blanket statement.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I always took Juhani with me, she was very useful. Also you could kill most of your party in KOTOR, so I really don't see the difference,

except the choice is forced on you in ME. But really that choice is no different than the one you make every time you select your party.

As far as Wrex's reaction, it never made sense to me.

You condemn his whole species to extinction, and he's just fine with that, just because you recovered some crummy armor for him.

Stuff like that is what I find very amateurish in the game, or may be it's juvenile.

[alanschu]

ME did have a degenerate version of Carth, which was Kaiden, just like Quasar or whatever that game was called was a degenerate version of Pazaak, just like ME is a degenerate version of KOTOR, which is what I think makes it so hard for people to understand the difference between KOTOR and ME.

 

 

Kaiden was Carth. Same voice and all.

 

 

ME is KOTOR but not set in Star Wars and coming after KOTOR. I think this is what makes it so difficult for those to understand how similar the two games actually are.

 

 

Wrex's decision makes as much sense as other NPCs following you despite all your dastardly deeds in KOTOR.

Edited January 13, 2009 by alanschu

[Calax]

I always took Juhani with me, she was very useful. Also you could kill most of your party in KOTOR, so I really don't see the difference,

except the choice is forced on you in ME. But really that choice is no different than the one you make every time you select your party.

As far as Wrex's reaction, it never made sense to me.

You condemn his whole species to extinction, and he's just fine with that, just because you recovered some crummy armor for him.

Stuff like that is what I find very amateurish in the game, or may be it's juvenile.

Theoretically you could choose to hit virmire third. So if you made the choice between your two characters you'd have to live with it for quite a while, whereas in KotOR, you did it at the very end and only if you felt like it. I think the forcing of the choice is what attracts most people to it. Meaning you have to Weigh the concequences of your action vs. the benfit of said action. In KotOR, your main character could be so powerful that he would just do things by himself, ME you needed others to do stuff like hack droids or toss enemies into the air like pinatas.

 

As to Wrex

he had to choose for his entire race. Either he allows the Krogan to be cured but forever enslaved to Saren, or he destroyes the cure and still has at least some hope because a cure is possible. Before he didn't even know if the Genophage could be cured, now he does

 

 

I guess the reason why you Liked KotOR is because most of it was force fed to you. In ME you actually had to dive in and practically submerge yourself in the story to figure things out. KotOR has the depth of a puddle after a rainstorm, ME is like the Marianas Trench.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

So, all he needed was to activate the Citadel in secret, why waste time building armies, why hunt for beacons, none of that seems necessary. Also saying Saren needed hope so he acted illogically is just rationalization.

Anyway, I can see this can be argued for ever, if you find the story logical, good for you, to me it seemed very contrived to try to justify going to a bunch of planets which didn't really fit into the story.

Edit:

Why would they be enslaved by Saren if you saved the cure though?

 

 

Yes, you're right, I do like the game to explain everything, instead of having to come up with my own explanations.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[alanschu]

It's not a knock against KOTOR. It's a knock against your credibility when you bash ME for the same things that KOTOR has. Such as the big, open dreary world of the topside of Taris, which reminds me an awful lot of the Presidium (only with interrupting loading screens).

 

Unless you are saying you don't like ME because it's too similar to KOTOR.

ME ripping off KOTOR is not to its credit. Top side of Taris went along with it's theme, rich live on higher level, the lower levels get increasingly poorer and more dangerous. Sure, a lot was left to the imagination due to graphic limitations, but you could see some beautiful vistas of the city with spaceships and so on. Plus it set up the contrast with the sewers and the squalor of the refugee camp. And at least there was lots of interesting stuff to do on Taris, unlike the Citadel.

 

 

Right. Unfortunately for you, you obviously played ME with the "Imagination switch" turned off. Too bad for you really. You could have enjoyed the game more if you hadn't been so closed minded about it.

 

 

The theme of "rich live higher" wasn't particularly interesting, nor creative. Taris wasn't bad. Just like the Presidium wasn't bad. As for stuff to do, well, I guess there was the walking around looking at the sites and talking with the odd person. It reminds me of a game I played more recently.

 

I just love how you rationalize Taris because it took some imagination to make it awesome, yet you chastise the Presidium. While there may not have been a whole lot to do on the Presidium, I enjoyed just walking around and and listening to Ashley and Kaiden make comments about what we were looking at.

[alanschu]

am gonna suggest that carth were the "degenerate" form o' kaiden. the archetype upon which both is built is tediously familiar, but carth... carth were kinda extreme with the mood swings. Gromnir kept wishing for a dialogue option that would allow us to force feed carth lithium. carth were not our favorite kotor jnpc... woulda preferred kaiden.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So, Carth was a very damaged human being, anything against portraying that in a game? The problem with Kaiden is he's so underdeveloped, he tells you his sob story (which is pretty dumb btw) and that's it.

 

 

Carth was the king of cliche and a big whiner. It was a huge disconnect over someone that was supposed to be a badass in the Republic. His whole exposition was jarring, especially when he would randomly pop up with a "Carth has something on his mind" 5 minutes after I meet him.

 

The only good thing about Carth was his reaction to an evil Revan.

 

 

It seems to me that you don't hold KOTOR to the same standards that you do ME.

[alanschu]

furthermore, kaiden were integral to heroic sacrifice that not exist any place in kotor. the Player actually had to give something up in me. in bg2 there is one point in game in which you gotta sacrifice an ability point. that were a big moment for bioware and Gromnir is saddened that they not made more use of such stuff. Gromnir had played the entire game o' me with ashley and kaiden as main party mates (save for jnpc specific side-quest,) so choice 'tween kaiden and ashley were occurring not simply on story level, but at gameplay level... actual tangible impact o' choice were potential felt by player. furthermore, for kaiden or ashley, there is no happy ending. in kotor there is the traditional crpg happy ending... heck, the kotor developers even pulled the imagery right out o' the episode iv ending. such an ending were appropriate for kotor, but such stuff is easy and somewhat boring.

 

 

I used Ashley and Kaiden as main squadmates too, and I agree it heightened the emotions of that decision.

 

I was hoping that the game would choose the two characters you used the most during gameplay for that decision, but unfortunately it wasn't (and not really surprisingly) the case. Still, because I used Ashley and Kaiden, having to choose that was a pissoff. I choose Ashley because she was set to detonate the nuke, and that was the priority. It was cool watching my character hoist her up on his shoulder, refusing to leave her behind when he was already faced with the prospect of leaving Kaiden behind

 

 

Yay blacked out text FTW

[Wrath of Dagon]

The difference between Taris and Citadel was the Taris had a bunch of good quests, all of which fit into its theme. All Citadel had was a bunch of pointless filler. And as I said, Carth was a developed character who played an important part in the story, Kaiden was a couple of conversations, that's all.

[alanschu]

Wrex has some good one liners, but if you talk to him he bores you to tears, almost as bad as Tali. He's completely one dimensional and a Canderous rip off, except not near as good as Canderous. The choice on Virmire is a coin toss choice (I don't mean the one with Wrex), I never really understood why people like that so much. And about being created for specific purposes, that's very true, everything feels very contrived, and the few decisions you actually make aren't organic to the story or the gameplay, they are just there because you're supposed to make decisions in an RPG, it's like they have a big sign "Make Big Decision Here!"

 

 

If you want to say that it was a coin toss choice, then all choices are coin toss choices. Should I be evil or good? Should I do this or that? Lets just flip a coin.

[alanschu]

So, all he needed was to activate the Citadel in secret, why waste time building armies, why hunt for beacons, none of that seems necessary. Also saying Saren needed hope so he acted illogically is just rationalization.

Anyway, I can see this can be argued for ever, if you find the story logical, good for you, to me it seemed very contrived to try to justify going to a bunch of planets which didn't really fit into the story.

Edit:

Why would they be enslaved by Saren if you saved the cure though?

 

 

Yes, you're right, I do like the game to explain everything, instead of having to come up with my own explanations.

 

 

I am now convinced you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to the game, if you have to claim that "none of that seemed necessary." You must have had your mind made up before you played it. Either that or its plot was too confusing for you to understand, which I can't possibly believe since it's plot isn't that great. It reminds me a lot of...KOTOR, in terms of its complexity.

 

 

They even have the ancient civilization

 

[Calax]

So, all he needed was to activate the Citadel in secret, why waste time building armies, why hunt for beacons, none of that seems necessary. Also saying Saren needed hope so he acted illogically is just rationalization.

Anyway, I can see this can be argued for ever, if you find the story logical, good for you, to me it seemed very contrived to try to justify going to a bunch of planets which didn't really fit into the story.

Edit:

Why would they be enslaved by Saren if you saved the cure though?

 

 

Yes, you're right, I do like the game to explain everything, instead of having to come up with my own explanations.

 

He needed the armies and the way into the citadel because according to the laws which even Specters aren't allowed to break, tampering with, disabling or destroying the aircraft lavatory.... sorry, you couldn't futz with the Keepers. And the Keepers took direction from the Citadel, who's command and control center was in the Council Chamber. Now if you were the council and had a SPECTER ask you "could I use your throne room for an experiment... oh and you can't even watch" you'd probably have that specter kicked out of the program. He had to find Iilos because it allowed him to easily enter and take control of the Citadel to shut off it's defenses and allow Sovereign to get in and do his thing. Saren himself wouldn't have been able to do that, and I thought that only Sovereign could activate the Mass Relay systems within the Citadel to summon the other Reapers. As to the Krogan thing, Saren was raising an army of Krogan that were brainwashed to serve him. So Wrex's choice, assuming you had enough diplomacy skills and/or did his side quest, was to destroy the creatures and the cure rather than see every new Krogan born, live and die only for Saren rather than themselves or the Krogan species as a whole.

 

 

Carth wasn't an important part of the story, yes he had more plot points surrounding him than all your other characters combined (excepting Bastila), but he still wasn't crucial to the plot. If he had been he the developers would have forced him onto your team or off your team for reasons other than 'nooo I've been betrayed again! :whine:' Bastila was the only character other than Yourself in K1 that was crucial to the plot.

[Gromnir]

is nothing wrong with wrath opinions, but is simply too difficult for many of us to find common ground to even begin a debate. talk with the bio writers and they will concede some o' the shortcomings in various kotor characters and quests... and is surprising how often they actually agree with the weight o' fan feedback. is not as if the biowarians is oblivious to the shortcomings. likewise, the developers admit to shortcomings with me.

 

 

...

 

is maybe telling that Gromnir can have a discussion with the actual developers 'bout shortcomings of me and kotor in which we can agree on many points, but we find no such common ground with wrath... which don't make wrath wrong, but is simply bizarre.

 

take a whopper from burger king and a big mac from mcdonalds. most people is gonna have a preference, and nobody is wrong in their preference. the thing is that virtual all folks is gonna be arguing as between and betwixt relative fast food items. has some guy claim that actually consuming a big mac is akin to eating broken glass, whilst eating a whopper is to experience culinary nirvana...

 

HA! Good Fun!

[DeathScepter]

yet I still like Kotor 1 and 2 more than Mass Effect.

[Volourn]

ME is superior to both KOTORs in terms of story, characters, combat, graphics, music, role-playing, atmospher,e abckground, the world, and everything.

 

KOTOR series *might* have better inventory. Might. But, KOTOR's inventory is still horrid.

[Tigranes]

Carth was a developed character who played an important part in the story

 

Hahahaha

 

Carth was well developed, but in the sense that he was pure crap finely developed into a statue of crap. He screamed "generic friendly supportive companion guy who gets along with you" from the get-go, what with his bland voice, bland family-friendly dialogue and even his stats. Then he kept popping up with more inane, forgettable dialogue trying to add some kind of depth. It was like watching someone make a companion equipped only with fantasy books for 12-year olds and RPG Maker.

 

edit: To clarify... basically, Carth's entire concept was boring. Loyal soldier blah blah blah, hate this guy for killing my family blah blah blah. It wasn't implausible or inappropriate, but there was nothing interesting in there. And it was delivered, to the hilt... sort of like Casavir or Ajantis. (For bland stereotypes delivered in an interesting/entertaining manner, see: Korgan, HK, etc.)

 

And I obviously say that with no comparisons to this 'Kaiden', not having played mucch of ME.

 

KOTOR series *might* have better inventory. Might. But, KOTOR's inventory is still horrid.

 

Seriously? How is that even possible?

 

KOTOR1 had a tight, decent Biowarian story, meaning a Chosen One story that makes enough sense to work for the duration of the game (if not that much more), provides some fun situations, and allows for discussions of straight-up good/evil morality. It had archetypical companions that were polished to a hilt, which isn't quite so different from BG2, and worked well for archetypes that had something to deliver (HK, Canderous, etc), not so much for those whose archetypes were crap to begin with (Carth). It had abominable combat, mainly because it was too easy and the AI kept not listening to you, but it didn't kill the game or anything. And of course, the main quest and a few side quests were fine, but you did have relatively empty worlds and NPCs you could neither kill nor steal from.

 

I wouldn't know how any of that squares up to ME, but KOTOR1 was neither a particularly deep nor complex game in terms of story, characters or world. I don't think it was trying to be, either. What it did well was provide a relatively tight-knit experience with a classic Gaiderian motley crew.

[Montgomery Markland]

[ontopic]

Honestly, compared to 99% of the games that ever graced a video display, KOTOR1, KOTOR2 and Mass Effect are all finely wrought pieces of craftmanship. Do they have their flaws? Sure, but they each entertained a significant portion of their multi-million audience.

 

This is a personal choice, but I try to not let perfect get in the way of enjoyable. For example, are Superbad or Minority Report classics? Who knows? Were they enjoyable movies? Sure. I liked 'em. I didn't go in with inflated expectations and I feel like I got my money's worth in entertainment value. Enjoying a game is a personal choice. In fact, an individual's preconceptions and expectations probably have as much to do with the enjoyment of a game as the design or any other component.

[/offtopic]

 

[sarcasm]

So, Crusade for truth all you want, but the impact will at best be uncertain in the grand scheme of game design.

 

I'm glad we skipped logic straight away and went right for the straw men. I would continue this discussion with you, but it's clear you support national socialism so all of your points are invalid.

 

to: manmonkeyhybrid

is obvious you not understand "hyperbole." quote burke on evil as legitimizing why you post at codex and elsewhere... but at same time saying that GROMNIR is the one inflating importance o' codex?

 

In what layer of the Abyss did we sit down and have a discussion about legitimizing why I post at the codex and elsewhere? I explained why I post at various game forums. I could not possibly care less whether you think my reasons are legitimate.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

[didactic (okay so this meta tag is pretty sarcastic)]

In the age of asset outsourcing (something which is becoming more and more common for larger companies), you can't always have this perfect desire scenario of artist and level designer working as one unit.

 

Feed/Teach Man->Fish

 

You can't always have good collaboration between well-informed and educated coworkers operating in a professional manner with a communal interest in aesthetic quality when you first wake up in the morning. GET ME MY COFFEE AND A WELL-OILED CREATIVE TEAM COLLABORATING IN REAL TIME WITH THE FORESIGHT TO SELF MANAGE THEMSELVES AND UNLIMITED PROGRAMMING RESOURCES TO SUPPORT THEM ALSO I LIKE SOME WHISKEY IN MY COFFEE THANKS!!1111

 

But if you cultivate that sort of thing, you'll find it happens more than it does not.

 

People rise to the challenge.

 

Most people prefer to get engaged in their work product if they are properly managed.

 

Outsourcing the art with some direction designed to provide consistency and level designers ignoring visuals and aesthetics might suffice in some circumstances, but it's not going to predictably produce quality levels.

 

I'll end with some mealy-mouthed sentimentalism: People often meet your expectations, no matter how low.

 

Expect little of people, and you will get little. Expect a lot of people, and sometimes you will still get little, but sometimes you will get lots. The net gain in expecting a lot of people is, therefore, apparent.

 

[/didactic]

 

[ontopic]

All this talk of Mass Effect is going to get me to replay the game I think. I really did enjoy the crit path a lot after the first few hours.

[/offtopic]

 

I also used to like Big Macs before I became a vegetarian.

[Gromnir]

"In what layer of the Abyss did we sit down and have a discussion about legitimizing why I post at the codex and elsewhere? I explained why I post at various game forums. I could not possibly care less whether you think my reasons are legitimate."

 

am not sure 'bout layers of the abyss, but a few posts ago you opined reasons for posting at the codex and elsewhere... after questioning why another developer would not. maybe you not like the turn o' phrase, but we gots denotative and connotative accuracy.

 

bah... am trying to reason with a guy who used burke quote on combating Evil to show that he weren't giving too much credit to codex? perhaps you is vol's alt?

 

as an aside, Gromnir has always been curious 'bout the d&d notion o' The Abyss having infinite layers... or at least, many layers. strictly speaking, ain't the Abyss an endless pit... or alternatively, a metaphysical/allegorical void that nevertheless inspires nightmares and births chaos? tangible levels existing in the abyss seems almost antithetical to original notions and definitions.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 13, 2009 by Gromnir

[Maria Caliban]

ME gave you not one but two girl-on-girl sex scenes with blue alien chicks. KotOR only gave you a one-line