Recent Isareli military action in Gaza

[Killian Kalthorne]

I said this before and I will say it again, if the Hamas didn't want Israelis to attack them why did they provoke them? If you are going to shoot someone expect to be shot back. If you are going to shoot all your military might at another nation, expect that nation to respond in kind. Hamas wanted this war, and since they are the duly elected representatives of Gazans that means the Gazans wanted this war. Well, Israel gave it to them. So why should I, or any reasonably intelligent person, have any sort of compassion for the level of idiocy that Hamas and their followers have shown in this war they chose to start?

Edited January 16, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[Walsingham]

The State of Israel gained full independence following a terrorist attack which killed the ranking English administrators.

 

September 11 was an overwhelming success on the symbolic level, and terror is all about perception,the casualties themselves are insignificant, at least until the dreaded nuclear terrorist event actually happens. One attack could hardly have hoped to achieve more.

 

So, terror is effective, but rarely so. It needs to be spectacular, out of the ordinary, and it needs to succeed in nudging events just so in the desired direction. Another suicide attack against an Israeli city has been done so many times before it people are numb to it. A retaliatory incursion like this one with a massive civilian death toll does a lot more to move public perception, or in this case world opinion, since that conflict is as seminal as ever.

 

Hmmm. Let me think about that. You make an interesting point.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Another suicide attack against an Israeli city has been done so many times before it people are numb to it.

That is totally ridiculous. Israelis were willing to go to just about any length to stop the suicide attacks.

[Gorgon]

Yes, but there have been too many of those for it to shock anyone anymore. Having Israel kill a hugely disproportionate number of Palestinian civilians in their incursion will further the Hamas agenda more.

 

These are 'countries' at war so it doesn't apply except at the level of international opinion, but one of the theories offering a possibility of revolution and regime change through terrorism suggests that causing the state to react disproportionately is key to turning the population against the state and eventually have them side with the terrorists. It's never worked to my knowledge though, terrorists organizations seem entirely too optimistic about what it takes to break down the established order. In the case of the Zionists, they already enjoyed a degree of popular support.

 

Nevertheless these were the kinds of thoughts going through the heads of RAF when they started their kidnappings back in the 70s.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Gorgon

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, but there have been too many of those for it to shock anyone anymore.

No, there were too many to shock you, because you're sitting somewhere safe and secure.

[Gorgon]

Me, and world opinion. We are pretty fickle about what is terrible enough to make us want to act. Show enough starving African children and we cease to notice, and that's the point. It's not like Hamas are ever going to win the battle of Israeli public opinion.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Gorgon

[Wrath of Dagon]

World opinion is irrelevant, Israel has to defend itself and not rely on anyone else, because they know what happens if they don't.

[Meshugger]

Hypothetical situation:

 

Israel and the Palestinian government body(whoever that is) agrees on a Two-state solution according to the 1967-borders, and Jerusalem becomes a divided capital between both countries. But how will this scenarion become a practial solution?

 

1) Will the 800 000 palestinian refugees accept the new "home"?

2) How will Israel handle the traffic between Gaza and The West Bank?

3) Will Hamas put down their weapons by then?

4) Jerusalem is important for both states and respective religions, how will the governments manage to keep the streets calm?

Edited January 16, 2009 by Meshugger

[Gorgon]

No, it's not Irrelevant. Arafat owed Palestinian self rule to capturing the attention of the world to the plight of the Palestinian people. Do you think he would have addressed the UN as the 'leader of a dispossessed people' or got the Nobel peace prize if nobody had known his name. Do you think he would have gotten anything at all from Israel.

 

It seems to me that you are busy making judgments about how things should be in your opinion, rather than how they are.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Gorgon

[Killian Kalthorne]

Hamas and Hezbollah, and organizations like them, want only one thing. The annihiliation of Israel. Every action hey do is to be toward that goal. Any peace deal with them will only give them time to rebuild and rearm.

[Volourn]

"America did after 9/11 and declare war on anyone who remotely dislikes us"

 

Oh, come on. Stop with the hyperbole. If this is true, there would have been a lot more wars declared. Heck, there's Cuba just south of the US who more than remotely dislikes the US yet guess what? NO WAR.

 

This is the kinda of silliness that makes the anti US side (and that includes some Amerikans) look like they're just hating on the country simply because its a superpower.

 

It's the same reason people supported keeping Hussein in power with hey, at least its an Iraqi killing Iraqis. It's the same way the US gets blamed when AQ blows up Muslims. It's the US' fault. L0L

[howling1]

-----------------------------

@howling1:

 

Desperate words of a loser.

 

Not even close Yuusha. You see I've debated people like you for 40 years. After awhile you realize that you wasting your breath talking to fools.

Some of the largest and angriest demonstrations against Israel this past week have taken place in Turkey. Once a staunch Israeli ally, Turkey under Prime Minister Erdogan has cooled towards Israel in recent years, while improving its relations with Syria and other Arab states. This trend is now likely to accelerate. The Turkish armed forces -- which have long had close links with Israel -- will no doubt wish to play down a relationship which much of Turkey

Edited January 17, 2009 by howling1

[howling1]

"America did after 9/11 and declare war on anyone who remotely dislikes us"

 

Oh, come on. Stop with the hyperbole. If this is true, there would have been a lot more wars declared. Heck, there's Cuba just south of the US who more than remotely dislikes the US yet guess what? NO WAR.

 

This is the kinda of silliness that makes the anti US side (and that includes some Amerikans) look like they're just hating on the country simply because its a superpower.

 

It's the same reason people supported keeping Hussein in power with hey, at least its an Iraqi killing Iraqis. It's the same way the US gets blamed when AQ blows up Muslims. It's the US' fault. L0L

 

Agreed Volo, if the US were out to *GET* anyone who remotely dislikes us, the Venzuala, Bolivia, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, & a number of leftist leaning Europeans would be just so much glowing radioactive dust. We frankly dont care whether you like us or not, we do care if you start killing Americans. That we take personally.

 

P.S. We luvs you warm & fuzzy Canukians Volo...

[howling1]

Yuusha, you're a lot like that Yrkoon guy. You completely suck and all your arguments have the complete opposite effect on people's perceptions that you think they do.

 

Dead on !!!

 

Actually tho', Yrkoon had a itsy bit more common sense...

[Volourn]

"P.S. We luvs you warm & fuzzy Canukians Volo..."

 

Sadly, many of my fellow 'Canukians' are hateful scumbags who are as likely to cheer when something bad happens to Amerika than not. Yet, we have a reputation for being 'nice'. L0L

 

P.S. The above is NOT a description for ALL Kanadians.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Volourn

[howling1]

"P.S. We luvs you warm & fuzzy Canukians Volo..."

 

Sadly, many of my fellow 'Canukians' are hateful scumbags who are as likely to cheer when something bad happens to Amerika than not. Yet, we have a reputation for being 'nice'. L0L

 

P.S. The above is NOT a description for ALL Kanadians.

 

Scumbags are scumbags everywhere Volo. Just look at the US Congress, the only people around with popularity ratings lower than George W. Bush...

 

By Canukians, I mean guys like you and Fionavar...

Edited January 17, 2009 by howling1

[Yuusha]

@Walsingham: Be with you shortly.

----------------

 

@howling1:

Not even close Yuusha. You see I've debated people like you for 40 years. After awhile you realize that you wasting your breath talking to fools.

I didn't realize I was talking to a senior citizen. My apologies.

 

Again you show that you have little concept for reality. What Prime Minister Erdogan & his party thinks is irrelevant. Erdogan has to constantly look over his shoulder at the Turkish Military, which *IS* staunchly pro-Israeli. If Erdogan makes a misstep the Military will depose him just like they did before on two previous occasions when the civilian government got out of line. The Military very seriously considers itself to be the protectors of the secular Turkish constitution and wont hesitate to smack down anyone that threatens the constiuttion. If you had been paying attention when Erdogan was elected, Turkish pundits were speculating that the military would not let him take office. The only reason he was able to do so, was by promising not to try and alter either the constitution or Turkish foreign policy. The military's watching him like a hawk eying a rabbit. I trained in joint exercises with the Turkish military & still have friends in their military, they tell me that they're just waiting for Erdogan to make a mistake. The number of protests doesnt matter when the guys with guns have the final say...

Have another read at my post to you. I stated under Erdogan the Turkish - Israeli relationship was deteriorating, I didn't say that he and his party was responsible for the decline. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. In essence, it is the Turkish people themselves that felt Israeli military is exercising excessive force towards Palestinian civilians, hence the angry demonstration demanding the alienation of Israel.

 

I don't agree that the Turkish military is the guardian of the constitution, but for the sake of argument let's just assume that is the case. It would be illogical for the Turkish military to ignore the will of the people, since the constitution states that they are the holders of power. There is no way the military would violently suppress the voice of the people demanding the severing of the ties of relations with Israel. If the military is indeed the guardians of the constitution, then they would have no choice but to make sure that their relation with Israel is severed for good.

 

The Turks are simply following latest trend: Venezuela and Bolivia cut ties with Israel over Gaza. Just as Qatar and Mauritania also cut ties with Israel.

 

First and last time I'll answer you directly as you don't know what you're talking about...

The feeling's mutual. Since it's obvious that your wrinkly old ass is incapable understanding my simple point in my last post.

 

Btw, I'm not here to make Israel look bad. I am here to tell you the truth, and if truth condemns Israel, then it stands ****ing condemned!

Edited January 17, 2009 by Yuusha

[Trenitay]

Just because there is a protest doesn't mean all that country agrees with it. I could go out and wrangle me up some anti-israel protesters, and speak out against this war, that doesn't make all of america anti-israel.

[howling1]

Just because there is a protest doesn't mean all that country agrees with it. I could go out and wrangle me up some anti-israel protesters, and speak out against this war, that doesn't make all of america anti-israel.

 

Agreed!

 

All he's doing is spouting anti-Israel & pro-Hamas propaganda. Despite his claims to the contrary, he's not interested in the truth...

 

He's a living example of that old mantra that we used to have on the old BIS Boards :

 

Dont Feed The Trolls...

[Walsingham]

Dont Feed The Trolls...

 

Because what you really want in life is a hungry troll?

[Volourn]

"Btw, I'm not here to make Israel look bad."

 

L0L; But, either way you are failing at it. Considering you pretty much anything wrong Hamas does - then again, according to you - Hamas doesn't do anything wrong. And, if they do its Isreal's fault and it don't matter because they're democratically elected.

 

It's Isreal's fault that Hamas does the following...

 

Rocket attacks on Isreali civilians

 

Hamas murdering Palestinians

 

Hamas ignoring their neighbours' borders by digging holes into the ground illegally

 

Hamas not working with the other major Palestinian party even though they should be since that is what democracy is supposed to be about

 

Hamas kidnapping then throwing the (adult) son of a Fatah leader off a building to his death (Fatah is no innocent here either as they did the same thing)

 

HAMAS MURDERING PALESTINIANS

 

HAMAS MURDERING PALESTINIANS

 

HAMAS MURDERING PALESTINIANS

 

But, no world outcry about that. R00fles!

[Walsingham]

Gordon Brown pledges UK Forces to police Gaza blockade.

 

I have to say that on first consideration this is possibly the worst move imaginable for the UK short of directly shelling Palestinian hospitals.

 

1. We are short staffed in most respects and need defence cash for the main event in Afghanistan

2. It makes it look like the UK and the Israeli govt are on the same wavelength which I can't agree with

3. It won't achieve anything tactically, as I'm sure Hamas will still get enough munitions to kill people

4. It won't achieve anything strategically because, as I say, I don't believe any end is possible.

[Gorgon]

But it would buy influence with Israel, and who knows Obama may be less business as usual than one might expect on Israel/Palestine.

[Yuusha]

@Awesomeness:

Just because there is a protest doesn't mean all that country agrees with it. I could go out and wrangle me up some anti-israel protesters, and speak out against this war, that doesn't make all of america anti-israel.

Turks urges government to take actions against Israel.

--------------------

 

@Volourn:

L0L; But, either way you are failing at it. Considering you pretty much anything wrong Hamas does - then again, according to you - Hamas doesn't do anything wrong. And, if they do its Isreal's fault and it don't matter because they're democratically elected.

Unlike the media coverage in many distinguished media sources, Hamas is not solely a 'terrorist group.' Rather, Hamas is regarded as a multifaceted organization, operating in the Palestinian society as a social aid agency and a political actor, as well. If truth to be told, the UN aids had long been distributed to the region through Hamas, according to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). All in all, the situation within the region does not seem very promising without understanding the reasons behind the Hamas popularity among Palestinians.

 

Israel, no longer wants to be confronted with the Hamas missiles, which sounds a very reasonable demand. Yet, indiscriminately killing hundreds of civilians and giving serious damaging of thousands of others through a collective punishment to all the Gaza city is not an option for achieving this goal.

 

I know it's easier for you to just accept the notion that Hamas is an evil organization hell-bent on destroying Israel, but the reality of it is Hamas has good reasons for attacking Israel. Israel has been pressuring on them to use any way of war. More than 300 thousand Jewish settlers have been living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Most of them are armed and very trigger happy. They have been killing Palestinian children and civilians. They have been struggling to survive under economic siege. More than five thousand Palestinian teenagers are under torture in Israeli prisons. No medicine! Health and education services are not enough. In such a situation, how can you say that Hamas are attacking civilians unprovoked? The world should look at the Israel first. They are the real terrorists.

 

As for the Hamas murdering Palestinians, could you provide me with the relevant link?

------------------------------

 

@Walsingham:

Yuusha, you acknowledge that Israel has a right to defend itself in practical terms, but I don't see the logical follow through in your statements. If the Gazans elect a party dedicated to total annihilatory war with Israel, how can it be inconsistent for Israel to prosecute war in return? I agree that civilian casualties are an issue, but do you accept in principle that military action is justified? That you would simply urge different military action?

First of all Wals, let us not forget that it was Israel that created Hamas.

 

Of course the Israeli state has the duty to protect its citizens and provide freedom; however, it has to accept one reality as all other democratic countries have: No democracy, no free and secure society, can be built on the collective punishment of others and the abuse of others

[Gorgon]

Ask yourself this, is Hamas better than Israel. If Hamas possessed rockets capable of killing 10.000 Israelies rather than 10 do you think they would blink before using them. Yes Israel is guilty of a terrible disregard for civilian casualties, but so is Hamas, and I want you to acknowledge it.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Gorgon