Eulogy for a game

[Calax]

but still no matter how we(at least I) look at this, Kotor MMO sucks.

what a closed mind you have.

[kuntilanak]

Hi, everyone. I've been reading this forum for quite a while now, and finally, I think I should voice out my opinion in this whole KotOR vs SWtOR discussion here. First of all, I'm a pure console gamer, and I always see PC gaming as a big hassle, what with the installations and patching and tweaking and compatibility of hardwares... And, I'm a big fan of console RPGs, which incidentally, are all from the land of the rising sun. So, ever since I first started trying out KotOR, I was instantly hooked. Now I have no idea about what the hell D20 means back then, but the game sure feels familiar with the console RPGs, but with a lot more depth in it. The storyline shines out with the multiple choices you can make, giving the player certain feel of immersion and involvement in the whole story.

 

So naturally, I looked forward and highly on TSL. The gameplay improved a lot, and the storyline was even more gripping, at least to me. The cut contents and glitches do annoyed me from time to time, but overall, I feel that the whole game will be a much better improvement in all sectors when compared to KotOR, if only OE could've been given ample time to finish it. And that leads me to the anticipation of K3, like many people out there.

 

The announcement of SWtOR really hit me hard. I admit that I really hope K3 is announced. I don't really mind how the developers scripting the storyline, but I do want to continue the gameplay that this franchise has offered. It represents a very nice departure from the standard console counterparts.

 

I am not a big fan when it comes to SW. I enjoyed the movies, but never played any of the SW-themed games. I never read any of the SW-related books (I don't really like reading, anyway). I merely treat SW as just another science fiction, albeit an interesting one. But KotOR franchise brought me into this new 'world', I may say so myself. I began picking up more interests in it, such as reading wikis and forums such as this. In my point of view, the mere mention of SW leads me to KotOR, then the developers (BioWare & OE), then LA, then dear Mr George himself.

 

So, what does the announcement of SWtOR meant to me then? I take it as dear George himself is just plain jealous of the success of the KotOR storyline, to the extend of wanting to ruin it badly so that it will not be anywhere more popular than the stories he had came up. He produced the original trilogy and the prequals, but the storyline of the KotOR franchise was written by people other than him, after his approval, I think. So, the mere thought of this franchise's storyline more popular than his own might have ticked him off to kill it before it gets the chance to be completed in a trilogy cycle. To me, the KotOR game gave me the feel of 'using lightsaber, force powers like a jedi' and 'movie-like' experience, and frankly speaking, I prefer watching all the cut-scenes and listening to the dialogues in the game more than those official movies.

 

Why did I come to this speculation? The fact that SW fans went outrage over what dear George did to the 'Re-Mastering' of the original trilogy got me thinking. On top of that, he simply cooked up his own version of some of the characters in the prequals so that all those books regarding character background in the prequals looked like being alienated (Jango Fett, anyone? and that full-of-make-up doll queen?) Not to mention that LA denied OE's request of releasing a 'content patch' for TSL.

 

All these got me thinking: dear George seemed to me a person that likes to control tightly when it comes to his IP. The other SW games, in my opinion, falls in between the stories he came up with (battleground, jedi knight, etc), so it's ok for him. But not KotOR. In my opinion, KotOR storyline, up to TSL, has every potential to over-shadow any of dear George's stories, so I can only imagine now what would it be like if TSL were to be given ample time to finish and K3 were made.

 

I never played MMO. Never a fan of the genre. It's a totally different beast compared to KotOR, IMO. I can't say it sucks, because WOW makes more $$$ than most / all other games, but I do agree that MMO is not a suitable platform for solid and engaging story-telling like KotOR. SWtOR IMO, is like a prequal to SWG, what with the features and gameplay similarities, as far as I learned till now. So, to me, KotOR is dead. RIP KotOR. The only thing I look forward to at the moment is TSLRP. If anything, I will blame KotOR's death on dear George himself...

 

Thanks for reading, and I apologize in advance if I made any mistakes in my ranting. I'm a noob in SW universe and I wrote all that entirely from my point of view.

[DAWUSS]

Yup, we'll be seeing droids from KotOR as well, probably T3 and HK-47, and our characters from KotOR will be "relevant" through their various descendants. That's the nod to saying "Yes, this is as much KotOR as you're going to get - KotOR is now this. Get with the program - it's this way or the highway." Personally I've already chosen the latter.

 

 

Let's see, there's HK-47, and possibly T3-M4, Zaalbar, Motta, and Vogga, and although not to the KOTOR series, Urai Fen could be around as well.

 

And I have a feeling that the whole descendant thing will wind up being executed rather poorly, meaning that they're there and of importance just to provide a plot and bloodline link, meaning they're going to be the Skywalkers before the Skywalkers

[Jediphile]

So, what does the announcement of SWtOR meant to me then? I take it as dear George himself is just plain jealous of the success of the KotOR storyline, to the extend of wanting to ruin it badly so that it will not be anywhere more popular than the stories he had came up. He produced the original trilogy and the prequals, but the storyline of the KotOR franchise was written by people other than him, after his approval, I think.

 

So, the mere thought of this franchise's storyline more popular than his own might have ticked him off to kill it before it gets the chance to be completed in a trilogy cycle.

 

Personally I doubt Lucas has had anything to do with this decision. KotOR is a niche of Star Wars at best and exists only in the form of two computer games and a comic book of about 36 issues so far with characters and events finding their ways into guides and encyclopediae of the franchise. It's nowhere close to the level of exposure of the movies or tv cartoons. Lots of Star Wars fans probably have no idea who Revan is, let alone the exile. So no, I don't think Lucas is the problem. More likely the problem is the people George has working for him in Lucasarts who focus very exclusively on the profit margin. Because frankly, George has so much money, he doesn't have to care one whit about raking in even more money, whereas I'm sure there are those at both Lucasarts, EA, and Bioware who do. It's one reason I dislike the LA/EA/Bioware shotgun wedding - when there are more mouthes to feed, commercial success has a tendency to take precedence.

 

Personally I wouldn't brand Lucas himself as a greedy, money-hungry guy. Star Wars has lots of merchandising, sure, but if he was only concerned about money, he never would have dropped the franchise after RotJ. It's practically unheard of that he was able to pick up the pieces and do the prequels a decade and half later in the cinema. That doesn't happen so often (unless we're talking remake). Lucas could probably have made a lot more money by letting other people do his prequels for him, but he insisted on doing it himself, because that was the vision he believed in. While I don't always agree with that vision, I have to respect him for that at least, even if I think there are too many aliens (and I absolutely HATE the Han/Greedo retcon!!!)

 

Besides, if George really was the greedy git everybody says he is, then why should he care if KotOR is doing well? Then his reaction should been that it's great because it makes more cash for him.

 

All these got me thinking: dear George seemed to me a person that likes to control tightly when it comes to his IP. The other SW games, in my opinion, falls in between the stories he came up with (battleground, jedi knight, etc), so it's ok for him. But not KotOR. In my opinion, KotOR storyline, up to TSL, has every potential to over-shadow any of dear George's stories, so I can only imagine now what would it be like if TSL were to be given ample time to finish and K3 were made.

 

I doubt that. Besides, KotOR does not exist in a vacuum of its own, being heavily inspired by the Tales of the Jedi comic books that precede the games and chronicle the Great Sith War between the jedi and the sith forces of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. Other comic books have detailed the Great Hyperspace War when Naga Sadow's Sith Empire invaded the Republic. Palpatine has that depictions of that in his office in Episode III, so I don't think it's relevant to suggest Lucas wants to deny the parts of Star Wars lore that he didn't write himself, because he actually acknowledges the Great Hyperspace War here, and that was chronicled in the Fall of the Sith Empire comic books written by Kevin J. Anderson.

 

Thanks for reading, and I apologize in advance if I made any mistakes in my ranting. I'm a noob in SW universe and I wrote all that entirely from my point of view.

 

Rant on - it's what we all do here at times

[Albion72]

Meh, everyone is taking this a bit far in depth.

 

Fact: MMOs are hot for market, they are making one, because its the "fad" for most computer gamers.

 

Fact: This does not limit their ability to make singleplayer games, because singleplayer games are also still very popular, especially for the console systems.

 

Fact: Bioware is not hte only company who can make KOTOR III.

 

Fact: Just because LA is not allowing a KOTOR III to be made right this second does not mean they think its a crappy idea and/or shouldn't be made. Perhaps they want TSLRP to be finished first.. who knows. These companies all have their own plans and agendas, and frankly, they are doing quite well as far as business right now, so they are not desperate for cash. Its not like their employees are boiling leather shoes for food (this was actually done during the great depression).

 

UNSURE: The KOTOR MMO will spoil the plot of a possible KOTOR III.

 

I say unsure because there is no way we can tell. This is also unlikely considering the time difference, and the only fact we know is that these Sith came out of the unknown regions where Revan left. So assumptions can be made, but nothing is proven yet.

[Calax]

Meh, everyone is taking this a bit far in depth.

 

Fact: MMOs are hot for market, they are making one, because its the "fad" for most computer gamers.

 

Fact: This does not limit their ability to make singleplayer games, because singleplayer games are also still very popular, especially for the console systems.

 

Fact: Bioware is not hte only company who can make KOTOR III.

 

Fact: Just because LA is not allowing a KOTOR III to be made right this second does not mean they think its a crappy idea and/or shouldn't be made. Perhaps they want TSLRP to be finished first.. who knows. These companies all have their own plans and agendas, and frankly, they are doing quite well as far as business right now, so they are not desperate for cash. Its not like their employees are boiling leather shoes for food (this was actually done during the great depression).

 

UNSURE: The KOTOR MMO will spoil the plot of a possible KOTOR III.

 

I say unsure because there is no way we can tell. This is also unlikely considering the time difference, and the only fact we know is that these Sith came out of the unknown regions where Revan left. So assumptions can be made, but nothing is proven yet.

Heres the thing about MMO's, because of the nature of their content and how they are set up, you could not have a single player game active at the same time or after in terms of timeline. This is because if you set it during the MMO then you have to have an event or somthing to show the events of the game. If you don't then the two games will appear to be out of sync and the Single player game will be declared "non-cannon" in favor of what people pay monthly for. If you set the game further down the road from the MMO then the MMO will have to have a definite end point for their content. They would have to build themselves to that event or the game has to be so far down the road that it has tenuous connections to the MMO and in this case almost nothing to do with the previous games.

 

 

In a nutshell: If you run a Singleplayer game that's either cocurrent or post your mmo wile the mmo is still running then you are limiting what you can do in the mmo, and the Devs will never want to do that.

 

This is why Warcraft 4 will only happen if WoW somehow dies.

[Albion72]

Meh, everyone is taking this a bit far in depth.

 

Fact: MMOs are hot for market, they are making one, because its the "fad" for most computer gamers.

 

Fact: This does not limit their ability to make singleplayer games, because singleplayer games are also still very popular, especially for the console systems.

 

Fact: Bioware is not hte only company who can make KOTOR III.

 

Fact: Just because LA is not allowing a KOTOR III to be made right this second does not mean they think its a crappy idea and/or shouldn't be made. Perhaps they want TSLRP to be finished first.. who knows. These companies all have their own plans and agendas, and frankly, they are doing quite well as far as business right now, so they are not desperate for cash. Its not like their employees are boiling leather shoes for food (this was actually done during the great depression).

 

UNSURE: The KOTOR MMO will spoil the plot of a possible KOTOR III.

 

I say unsure because there is no way we can tell. This is also unlikely considering the time difference, and the only fact we know is that these Sith came out of the unknown regions where Revan left. So assumptions can be made, but nothing is proven yet.

Heres the thing about MMO's, because of the nature of their content and how they are set up, you could not have a single player game active at the same time or after in terms of timeline. This is because if you set it during the MMO then you have to have an event or somthing to show the events of the game. If you don't then the two games will appear to be out of sync and the Single player game will be declared "non-cannon" in favor of what people pay monthly for. If you set the game further down the road from the MMO then the MMO will have to have a definite end point for their content. They would have to build themselves to that event or the game has to be so far down the road that it has tenuous connections to the MMO and in this case almost nothing to do with the previous games.

 

 

In a nutshell: If you run a Singleplayer game that's either cocurrent or post your mmo wile the mmo is still running then you are limiting what you can do in the mmo, and the Devs will never want to do that.

 

This is why Warcraft 4 will only happen if WoW somehow dies.

 

This is a relevant post, and I agree. However, the MMO takes place 300 years after Revan leaves known Space.

[Calax]

Meh, everyone is taking this a bit far in depth.

 

Fact: MMOs are hot for market, they are making one, because its the "fad" for most computer gamers.

 

Fact: This does not limit their ability to make singleplayer games, because singleplayer games are also still very popular, especially for the console systems.

 

Fact: Bioware is not hte only company who can make KOTOR III.

 

Fact: Just because LA is not allowing a KOTOR III to be made right this second does not mean they think its a crappy idea and/or shouldn't be made. Perhaps they want TSLRP to be finished first.. who knows. These companies all have their own plans and agendas, and frankly, they are doing quite well as far as business right now, so they are not desperate for cash. Its not like their employees are boiling leather shoes for food (this was actually done during the great depression).

 

UNSURE: The KOTOR MMO will spoil the plot of a possible KOTOR III.

 

I say unsure because there is no way we can tell. This is also unlikely considering the time difference, and the only fact we know is that these Sith came out of the unknown regions where Revan left. So assumptions can be made, but nothing is proven yet.

Heres the thing about MMO's, because of the nature of their content and how they are set up, you could not have a single player game active at the same time or after in terms of timeline. This is because if you set it during the MMO then you have to have an event or somthing to show the events of the game. If you don't then the two games will appear to be out of sync and the Single player game will be declared "non-cannon" in favor of what people pay monthly for. If you set the game further down the road from the MMO then the MMO will have to have a definite end point for their content. They would have to build themselves to that event or the game has to be so far down the road that it has tenuous connections to the MMO and in this case almost nothing to do with the previous games.

 

 

In a nutshell: If you run a Singleplayer game that's either cocurrent or post your mmo wile the mmo is still running then you are limiting what you can do in the mmo, and the Devs will never want to do that.

 

This is why Warcraft 4 will only happen if WoW somehow dies.

 

This is a relevant post, and I agree. However, the MMO takes place 300 years after Revan leaves known Space.

Still you can't exactly have a galaxy threatening war on the scale of the Sith and Jedi Civil wars without decimating the populations of the Jedi again. Just to get the Jedi population large enough that they can have Jedi be a character class I think they need those 300 years to be relatively peaceful.

[Albion72]

Meh, everyone is taking this a bit far in depth.

 

Fact: MMOs are hot for market, they are making one, because its the "fad" for most computer gamers.

 

Fact: This does not limit their ability to make singleplayer games, because singleplayer games are also still very popular, especially for the console systems.

 

Fact: Bioware is not hte only company who can make KOTOR III.

 

Fact: Just because LA is not allowing a KOTOR III to be made right this second does not mean they think its a crappy idea and/or shouldn't be made. Perhaps they want TSLRP to be finished first.. who knows. These companies all have their own plans and agendas, and frankly, they are doing quite well as far as business right now, so they are not desperate for cash. Its not like their employees are boiling leather shoes for food (this was actually done during the great depression).

 

UNSURE: The KOTOR MMO will spoil the plot of a possible KOTOR III.

 

I say unsure because there is no way we can tell. This is also unlikely considering the time difference, and the only fact we know is that these Sith came out of the unknown regions where Revan left. So assumptions can be made, but nothing is proven yet.

Heres the thing about MMO's, because of the nature of their content and how they are set up, you could not have a single player game active at the same time or after in terms of timeline. This is because if you set it during the MMO then you have to have an event or somthing to show the events of the game. If you don't then the two games will appear to be out of sync and the Single player game will be declared "non-cannon" in favor of what people pay monthly for. If you set the game further down the road from the MMO then the MMO will have to have a definite end point for their content. They would have to build themselves to that event or the game has to be so far down the road that it has tenuous connections to the MMO and in this case almost nothing to do with the previous games.

 

 

In a nutshell: If you run a Singleplayer game that's either cocurrent or post your mmo wile the mmo is still running then you are limiting what you can do in the mmo, and the Devs will never want to do that.

 

This is why Warcraft 4 will only happen if WoW somehow dies.

 

This is a relevant post, and I agree. However, the MMO takes place 300 years after Revan leaves known Space.

Still you can't exactly have a galaxy threatening war on the scale of the Sith and Jedi Civil wars without decimating the populations of the Jedi again. Just to get the Jedi population large enough that they can have Jedi be a character class I think they need those 300 years to be relatively peaceful.

 

Thats the beauty of it. Revan left to stop the Republic from getting crushed, because if the Republic was invaded by ANOTHER force before having the chance to rebuild it would've had no chance whatsoever. those 300 years of peace had something to do with Revan in my opinion. And SWG had Jedi as a class, and there were thousands of Jedi, although the time period the Jedi were pretty much wiped out (with a very very select few who survived).

[Jediphile]

The point is that TSL establishes Revan on an mission to end the threat of the true Sith and ends with the exile joining his cause, thereby setting the stage for a subsequent plot where the Sith threat is finally dealt with.

 

Can there be a KotOR3? Sure, but it cannot involve Revan and exile, because they're off fighting the true Sith, and we know that they will not succeed in ending that threat, because the Sith Empire they left to stop will attack and harm the Republic 300 years later. So the plot K2 establishes for K3 has been hijacked by SWtOR. That makes KotOR3 unlikely, because the true Sith cannot be the bad guys, and the Republic is shattered with the jedi order ruined after the events of TSL. You also cannot move far ahead in time, because that again brings you too close to the timeframe of SWtOR.

 

Thus KotOR3 is quite dead. There can be a game, but it cannot be the KotOR3 that TSL set the stage for, and it'll be a bleak story, because the jedi order is in ruins and the sith cannot be involved. That doesn't give us many "Knights" to play with... You could make a story about rebuidling the Republic and the jedi order, but it's not very suitable for a Star Wars story, which tend to be stories about good vs. evil with clear heroes and villains.

 

Or does anyone think "Star Wars - the Financial Crisis" will make for good escapism that people will flock to buy these days...

 

No. KotOR is dead, I fear

[DAWUSS]

I don't know - there could be a salvageable story for KOTOR III.

 

For example, what was Revan's definition of "victory"? Maybe he was able to achieve what he set out to do in the Unknown Regions - it just wasn't what everyone thought it would be.

[DeathScepter]

Even if Revan does win against the True Sith, there will be always another force user to take up the mantle of Sith Lord and start another sect of Sith.

 

 

 

Even after Vader's and Sidious's Death, there was Luymia and Hett that started their own Sith Orders. Sith are like the Daleks from Doctor Who. No matter how many times the Doctor or the other time lords kill the Daleks, the Daleks always come back in some form.

 

 

 

Also there is three hundred years between KotR and Kotor 2, So The True Sith Empire does have time to rebuild and attack the Republic and Revan still have a victory that cause them to force them to wait 300 years in Kotr storyline.

 

 

As for Revan not returning into Known Space, Well Revan is the type of guy would be wise enough to stay low and carry lightly going into known space and into the unknown regions to succed in his plans to Defeat the True Sith.

 

 

As for the Sith Emperor not doing the death blow on the Old Republic in Kotr, Revan could have set something up to disable the Sith Emperor or kill him.

 

 

Or Maybe there is No Sith Emperor and the Sith Council is really in power and that is why the Sith Emperor is so mysterious.

 

 

 

Personally Revan Vs Ludo Kresseh sounds really epic. Then again I am a Revan fan and Revan kicking ass is always cool in my opinion. That is why I like Kotor 1.

 

 

To Calax, I don't have nothing against MMO in general but I do feel that Kotr MMO is really forced and milking the fanboys and yes I am a fanboy of another franchise and I know how it feels to be milked out of my money.

[Magister Lajciak]

MMOs are like vampires sucking in the creative energy of the company concerned and leeching of all story elements of the franchise to feed their habit. Because of their pervasive nature (and the heavy resources/concentration expended on them by the developers), they automatically render other games in the franchise unlikely. Calax has pointed out the reasons for this succintly and eloquently.

[Albion72]

MMOs are like vampires sucking in the creative energy of the company concerned and leeching of all story elements of the franchise to feed their habit. Because of their pervasive nature (and the heavy resources/concentration expended on them by the developers), they automatically render other games in the franchise unlikely. Calax has pointed out the reasons for this succintly and eloquently.

 

This is debunked by the fact that Blizzard can afford to be producing Starcraft 2 at the same time as the final development/launch of Wrath of the Lich King.

[Albion72]

Even if Revan does win against the True Sith, there will be always another force user to take up the mantle of Sith Lord and start another sect of Sith.

 

 

 

Even after Vader's and Sidious's Death, there was Luymia and Hett that started their own Sith Orders. Sith are like the Daleks from Doctor Who. No matter how many times the Doctor or the other time lords kill the Daleks, the Daleks always come back in some form.

 

 

 

Also there is three hundred years between KotR and Kotor 2, So The True Sith Empire does have time to rebuild and attack the Republic and Revan still have a victory that cause them to force them to wait 300 years in Kotr storyline.

 

 

As for Revan not returning into Known Space, Well Revan is the type of guy would be wise enough to stay low and carry lightly going into known space and into the unknown regions to succed in his plans to Defeat the True Sith.

 

 

As for the Sith Emperor not doing the death blow on the Old Republic in Kotr, Revan could have set something up to disable the Sith Emperor or kill him.

 

 

Or Maybe there is No Sith Emperor and the Sith Council is really in power and that is why the Sith Emperor is so mysterious.

 

 

 

Personally Revan Vs Ludo Kresseh sounds really epic. Then again I am a Revan fan and Revan kicking ass is always cool in my opinion. That is why I like Kotor 1.

 

 

To Calax, I don't have nothing against MMO in general but I do feel that Kotr MMO is really forced and milking the fanboys and yes I am a fanboy of another franchise and I know how it feels to be milked out of my money.

 

I agree, there are still a plethora of possibilities. People think because Old Republic is int he title that it has everything and anything to do with the KOTOR games,w hen in reality, quite some time has passed.

[Jediphile]

People think because Old Republic is int he title that it has everything and anything to do with the KOTOR games,w hen in reality, quite some time has passed.

 

 

OCTOBER 21, SAN FRANCISCO

Edited November 21, 2008 by Jediphile

[Rosbjerg]

Well, it seems we have arrived at the final detour.