The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[Gromnir]

@Xard

Whoa no! All I want is a few sentences summarizing what VD believes an RPG makes. If I were interested enough that I would read interviews then I would have done so already.

 

@WoD

I've only skimmed it but it doesn't really tell me anything but multiple choice with at least one non-combat choice.

 

 

is habit o' codexians to disseminate Age of Decadence stuff wherever and whenever possible...

 

average vd disciple is little different than those hare krishnas hanging out at airports. don't look 'em in eye and never ask for more info on their religion.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[newc0253]

I think Vince's liking for non-linearity etc. is part of his overall design philosophy, not what are requirements for good roleplaying in CRPG.

hmm, a few posts back you were claiming this guy's definitions were objective truth. now you're simply saying that you agree with his overall take on things.

 

let's wait a few more posts, so you can shift positions again...

Edited August 29, 2008 by newc0253

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I really liked Bloodlines combat, but that's because my long history with fps games. There was nothing better then to beat zombie graveyard zerg with lousy weapon skills. Your characters aim would wander around and you would have to carefully time your shots or be at certain range to hit.

 

 

Play some FPS's

 

Let me see... Half Life, Half Life 2, Half Life 2 Episode One, Half Life 2 Episode Two, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Doom 3, Doom 3 Resurrection of Evil, Crysis, Sniper Elite, Clive Barker's Jericho, Far Cry, etc... I did not know those were not first-person-shooters.

[Xard]

@Xard

Whoa no! All I want is a few sentences summarizing what VD believes an RPG makes. If I were interested enough that I would read interviews then I would have done so already.

 

Ahh, it is the same central philosophies you hear MCA and other OE folk spout out nowadays. You know, "choices and consequences bla bla bla choices and consequences bla bla interesting writing bla choices and consequences". The main difference is that Vince as kind of freelance guy makes these looong analyzes and arguments for his view.

 

I'd guess you could summarize it as putting C&C as N. 1 Governing factor in RPG designing

 

I think Vince's liking for non-linearity etc. is part of his overall design philosophy, not what are requirements for good roleplaying in CRPG.

hmm, a few posts back you were claiming this guy's definitions were objective truth. now you're simply saying that you agree with his overall take on things.

 

let's wait a few more posts, so you can shift positions again...

 

Read more carefully, I never claimed to be objective. It should be pretty clear by now that I do not believe in objectivity. Heck, even science is epistemological and not ontological.

 

Check out my last post on the previous page. That's closest I can come up with calling something objective.

 

I really liked Bloodlines combat, but that's because my long history with fps games. There was nothing better then to beat zombie graveyard zerg with lousy weapon skills. Your characters aim would wander around and you would have to carefully time your shots or be at certain range to hit.

 

 

Play some FPS's

 

Let me see... Half Life, Half Life 2, Half Life 2 Episode One, Half Life 2 Episode Two, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Doom 3, Doom 3 Resurrection of Evil, Crysis, Sniper Elite, Clive Barker's Jericho, Far Cry, etc... I did not know those were not first-person-shooters.

 

Clearly you see how vastly inferior Bloodlines combat then is.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[Wrath of Dagon]

This is how Vince designs RPG's:

I designed AoD by defining paths and then supporting them with stats, skills, and fitting actions.

 

This is how Bioware designs RPG's:

We needed to fill up some space on the Citadel with a ton of little quests. The Citadel is beautiful and marvelous and epic in its proportions, and also really flipping huge and empty. This meant that fairly late in development, the writing team hunkered down to fill up an area the size of one of the major story worlds with a ton of small roleplaying encounters.

Also, the fact that the Citadel is so big means that if you try to have combat, the 360 emits a high-pitched whine and then explodes. Even without combat, the Citadel pushes the 360 to the edge of its memory constraints pretty hard, and at one point in playtesting, we were playing in a special game mode,

[Moatilliatta]

@Xard

Whoa no! All I want is a few sentences summarizing what VD believes an RPG makes. If I were interested enough that I would read interviews then I would have done so already.

 

Ahh, it is the same central philosophies you hear MCA and other OE folk spout out nowadays. You know, "choices and consequences bla bla bla choices and consequences bla bla interesting writing bla choices and consequences". The main difference is that Vince as kind of freelance guy makes these looong analyzes and arguments for his view.

 

I'd guess you could summarize it as putting C&C as N. 1 Governing factor in RPG designing

Wait a second. Isn't Dweller supposed to be cool and edgy? How can he be that if he is essentially an independent OE?

 

Also, last I checked MCA was some what more complex than that.

 

@Gromnir

Are those the ones that smother you in pamphlets if you accidentally look in their direction?

[Moatilliatta]

@WoD

That's the one that got posted in the Aliens forum, right? Already read it.

 

Do you realize that the ME quote says very little except games (in general not just failbox ones) have technical considerations?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Do you realize how broken and insipid ME quests are? KOTOR was made on hardware that was at least 8x less powerful, yet it's a masterpiece.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Moatilliatta]

Do you realize how broken and insipid ME quests are? KOTOR was made on hardware that was at least 8x less powerful, yet it's a masterpiece.

Opinions are fun aren't they.

[Xard]

@Xard

Whoa no! All I want is a few sentences summarizing what VD believes an RPG makes. If I were interested enough that I would read interviews then I would have done so already.

 

Ahh, it is the same central philosophies you hear MCA and other OE folk spout out nowadays. You know, "choices and consequences bla bla bla choices and consequences bla bla interesting writing bla choices and consequences". The main difference is that Vince as kind of freelance guy makes these looong analyzes and arguments for his view.

 

I'd guess you could summarize it as putting C&C as N. 1 Governing factor in RPG designing

Wait a second. Isn't Dweller supposed to be cool and edgy? How can he be that if he is essentially an independent OE?

 

 

It's cheap to just say "read the interviews", but you get the idea only that way really indepth. Vince's campaigning for TB combat and other such "outdated" stuff have been great and hilarious read. I'm not FAN of him (it would be kinda silly as he hasn't shipped anything!) but AoD is one of top games in my waiting for list.

 

Other thing that sets him apart from others is how he challenges many basic truths aka presumptions about RPG designing. Just see parts about "monsters don't listen to diplomacy. Ergo -> combat encounters" and "non-combat gameplay is just maxing your speech skillz and clickin through dialogue" myths and how he marvelously debunks them. I think even OE could learn from things like that.

 

Of course grain of salt is always needed.

 

 

anyway, here's direct Avellone quotes from one of his latest interviews:

 

What do you think (in an ideal case) should be the consequences game-wise of a moral decision made by the player in the game? (for example: branching plotline, different reward/penalty, story related or functional character development, NPC-PC relationship development)?

All of your examples would be appropriate. The most important thing is that the world react to the choice, and the player sees the consequences of the action.

 

and

 

Do you think it would contribute to or detract from the game experience if the player was presented with a moral choice that had no obvious morally superior choice? Why?

It would contribute to the game experience - choices like this challenge the player to think them through, and to all accounts, the Witcher did this quite well. When you present options that could go either way, it makes the world seem richer and deeper, and as long as you show the consequences of the actions, that's what's important.

 

 

Of course he shamelessly buffs C&C in all AP interviews and previews. heh

 

Same with many Obz devs in interviews you can find from Iron Tower Forums

 

Heck, I'd go and say Iron Tower Forums has best collection of RPG related interviews ever. Just see that indepth Sawyer interview about gameplay mechanics for example

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[Pidesco]

Do you realize how broken and insipid ME quests are? KOTOR was made on hardware that was at least 8x less powerful, yet it's a masterpiece.

 

[Wrath of Dagon]

Do you realize how broken and insipid ME quests are? KOTOR was made on hardware that was at least 8x less powerful, yet it's a masterpiece.

Opinions are fun aren't they.

Yes they are when they're correct, and mine always are.

[Moatilliatta]

Examples then? Or are you actually gonna conform to Gromnirs Hare Krishna comparison?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Examples of what?

[Moatilliatta]

Of KOTOR quests being vastly superiour to ME obviously.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Any quest in KOTOR is vastly superior to any quest in ME, with the exception of "I remember me" and the interview. If you want a very uneven match up, compare quest(s) to find Bastila on Taris to the quest to kill the Varren (wild dog) leader on Feros. But feel free to come up with a more fair match up.

 

EXT: WARDS: NIGHT:

 

(Back in the Central street in the Wards, JANE hears someone calling her.)

 

EMILY: Commander Shepard? Excuse me, Commander Shepard!

 

(JANE goes over to meet EMILY WONG. She is an attractive young news reporter.)

 

JANE: What do you need?

 

EMILY: My name is Emily Wong. I

Edited August 29, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Moatilliatta]

 

I'm not gonna find quests that show why any of them is superiour to the other as I wasn't the one stating opinions as facts.

 

If you want to be anything but random noise then start coming up with arguments. Just naming quests aren't arguments.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Do you realize how broken and insipid ME quests are? KOTOR was made on hardware that was at least 8x less powerful, yet it's a masterpiece.

Opinions are fun aren't they.

Yes they are when they're correct, and mine always are.

 

A bit conceited, aren't we?

[Wrath of Dagon]

@Moatillata:

OK, then read the quote I added above. The Varren quest is while you're in some tunnels, you turn into a square with a bunch of debris and a pack of Varren attack you. You shoot them all in a couple of seconds, and the quest is done. Do you really need me to recount everything you have to do to find Bastila? I've done that a few times already on other forums, so I don't really feel like it again.

 

@Deadly: Yes, genius will do that to you.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Moatilliatta]

KOTOR had kill monster quests too, it might not have said so directly (can't remember to be honest) but you usually had to do it to complete some crappy fetch quest.

 

The Bastila quest as far as I remember is just wandering over to her crashed pod and then later finding out that she is being offered to the winner of the race and then actually "win" her. Did I miss something? How is that quest even remotely better? Besides being longer.

[Llyranor]

Mass Effect's sidequests were pretty horrible, but KOTOR's weren't particularly good, either. It was just 'stuff to do' because it was a CRPG and CRPGs have sidequests rather than actually involving stuff.

[Moatilliatta]

Mass Effect's sidequests were pretty horrible, but KOTOR's weren't particularly good, either. It was just 'stuff to do' because it was a CRPG and CRPGs have sidequests rather than actually involving stuff.

+1

[Wrath of Dagon]

KOTOR had kill monster quests too, it might not have said so directly (can't remember to be honest) but you usually had to do it to complete some crappy fetch quest.

 

The Bastila quest as far as I remember is just wandering over to her crashed pod and then later finding out that she is being offered to the winner of the race and then actually "win" her. Did I miss something? How is that quest even remotely better? Besides being longer.

To find Bastila, you had to find the crashed pod, go through the sewers, hook up with Mission and Zaalbar, get involved with the two gangs, side with one, fight the Rancor, go through the gang compound, steal the prototype engine, win the race, win the fight at the end, and be subjected to Bastila's snooty dialog, in addition to a bunch of other stuff I don't remember at the moment. If that kind of gameplay is equivalent for you to a 2 second dog killing spree, then we exist in two different universes and there's not point in discussing anything.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Pidesco]

I'd like to remind you that finding Bastila was a main quest, not a side quest.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So what, it was required, but it was still a quest. Name one good quest in ME, aside from those I already named.