Palestine/Arab-Israeli Conflict

[Yuusha]

I started this thread mainly because there are questions that need answers, myths that need debunking and ultimately, a planet that needs awakening.

 

@Meshugger:

You want a history lesson from a 'credible/unbiased source' huh? Well here it is.

 

The following is taken from "The Origin of the Palestine-Israeli Conflict." Published by the Jews For Justice in the Middle East.

 

As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational "terrorists" who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes - on both sides - inevitably follow from this original injustice.

 

This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region's problems should consist of. If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record.

INTRODUCTION

 

The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs' inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

 

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

 

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

 

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

 

One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930's and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.

 

But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.

 

Read the rest the book here.

Now I know you're likely to quickly dismiss this as propaganda, singing the all too familiar song of 'anti-Semitism.' But what I've stated above is more than just the truth, it is FACT!

 

Furthermore, you've (more or less) stated that money is the root of evil claiming that it's responsible for all of the world's misfortunes. Well guess what? Money is not inherently evil nor is it inherently good. It is an inanimate object with no will of its own. Only through skillful manipulations can it become alive. The Zionists HAVE money. Lots of em. And they know how to use it to their advantage.

 

So before you demonize money, take a look around... If you see hell, we did it to ourselves.

[Xard]

Yuusha, you didn't answer SINGLE ONE OF MESHUGGER'S POINTS.

 

In the beginning Aarabs were the cranky bastards, now it is the other way around

 

I think you're pretty intelligent person but you have so ridiculously black/white worldview it drives me nuts

 

"There are only 2 powers in the world. The sword of the oppressor & the spirit of the oppressed. In the long run, the sword is always defeated by the spirit."

 

There are no two powers in the world. World emerges in a very chaos theory-like way. Human free will put on top of thousands of variables and powers (social, cultural and of course physical and biological) makes the world unpredictable and complex place. I mentioned free will because free decisions made by humans can sometimes if they're made by certain people at certain time bring on huge differences on how world moves on

 

So stop seeing the world like there was some humongous jewish conspicary to oppress arabs

Edited June 19, 2008 by Xard

[Humodour]

I think I'm going to have to make a script that replies "bs&tl;dr" to all of Yuusha's posts.

 

Can you get what 'bs' stands for?

[Walsingham]

You can't seriously expect many of us to engage in this topic when you steadfastly ignore every single question we ask.

 

That's not a debate, nor does it debunk anything.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Much of what you quote in the article is well-known and believed outside the Muslim world. This is not new information. I certainly agree that the Israeli version of the displacement of the Palestinians is suspect, but then most nations have a self-serving view of their own history and this version has not gone unchallenged by historians.

 

I can know of, and agree with, much of what you quote and still hold the belief that there is right and wrong on both sides of this conflict, in the past and now.

[Yuusha]

@Wals:

Ok, for the sake of clarity I request that any questions that was posted in the Presidential elections thread to be reposted here in this thread and I will try my best to answer them.

[Meshugger]

I'm busy with Thesis-stuff atm, i need to get it done before midsummer partying starts here, so hopefully i will give an answer later tonight.

[Hurlshort]

Yuusha always seems so argumentative, it's hard to have a real discussion.

 

The fact is Israel exists. It's not going anywhere. There aren't really any countries out there that weren't founded by pushing someone else off the land. Jewish people were pushed out of different countries for centuries, so it's pretty hard to drum up much anger over the fact that they have aggresively settled in the Middle East. The countries that claim to have a beef with Israel need to get over it, it's nothing new and we can go down the list of countries that Muslims conquered throughout history.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel.

 

Wait a second, was not that land part of the British Empire and, before that, the Ottoman Empire? In fact, is it not true that there has never been an independent state of Palestine - or at least not one in modern history? Correct me if I am mistaken, I am far from an expert in the history of Israel, but I am fairly certain what I just said is true.

[Yuusha]

@Xard:

In the beginning Aarabs were the cranky bastards, now it is the other way around

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" David Ben-Gurion, quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

--------------------

 

@Hurlshot:

Yuusha always seems so argumentative, it's hard to have a real discussion.

 

Jewish people were pushed out of different countries for centuries, so it's pretty hard to drum up much anger over the fact that they have aggresively settled in the Middle East. The countries that claim to have a beef with Israel need to get over it, it's nothing new and we can go down the list of countries that Muslims conquered throughout history.

I know that it's difficult for you to accept that there are things regarding the Middle East that have eluded you for so long. Your reaction is understandable, so I will do my best to convey my points to you as politely as I can. Hopefully we can have a real discussion.

 

So here goes...

 

I agree with you that throughout history, Islam has conquered considerable amount of countries/nations. But lets take a closer look at that fact shall we.

 

I think it was Jesus who said:

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs...

 

Wrong. The "god" of Islam is the same "god" found in the Old Testament.

[Hurlshort]

Yuusha, what about the suicide bombers? That seems to be a pretty big issue here. You keep using the word atrocity. I have no problem accepting that Israel and the US deserve blame for their actions, but as a Muslim, I would think you would be even more aghast at the individuals who bomb randomly in the name of Allah. They are the ones dragging Islam through the mud.

 

The stance you take on this board seems to be "I am a Muslim, and I am educating western heathens." I celebrate Ramadan and I attend mosques more regularly than any Christian church. I've contemplated converting for the last couple years. There is only one thing that has stopped me from fully embracing Islam:

 

The lack of a strong Muslim movement against suicide bombing. Seriously, there are millions of peaceful Muslims, how can they stand to allow corrupt imams to take advantage of the youth in this way? These imams are taking young minds and warping them so they can commit terrible acts. There is no issue that will be solved by suicide bombing, that is certain. So where is the Muslim response?

[samm]

Look, I value the willingness of discussing such matters. What now lacks is opening for discussion from your side. It seems important to you that it's the jews, called by the word that has inevitably become provocative: "zionists", who started it all.

The standard Zionist position

I should have stopped reading right here. Generalizations ftl.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true

That "explanation" is supposed by the authors of this booklet. Does that make it a fact? It just shows that what they constructed as general stance is wrong, not that the general stance is wrong...

What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population

Says who? "What really happened" = "look, WE tell you the thruth.

Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present). (...)But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.

Now that paragraph does sound like facts, and does display a problem - agreed. Why not building an informative booklet on facts instead of truth claims.

Now I know you're likely to quickly dismiss this as propaganda, singing the all too familiar song of 'anti-Semitism.' But what I've stated above is more than just the truth, it is FACT!

Again: You mix truths (call "anti-semitism" comes too fast) with claims and exclamations that make it very hard to discuss on a meaningful level.

Furthermore, you've (more or less) stated that money is the root of evil claiming that it's responsible for all of the world's misfortunes. Well guess what? Money is not inherently evil nor is it inherently good. It is an inanimate object with no will of its own. Only through skillful manipulations can it become alive.

Metaphorical, but ok.

The Zionists HAVE money. Lots of em. And they know how to use it to their advantage.

So here it comes again... You keep telling yourself that, seems to be a comfortable lie to live in and justify the anger against a land/religion/people (pick whatever is appropriate for your current cause).

 

Why aren't you answering DeadlyNightshade's question about the past of supposed "palestine"? Why not elaborate on the Arabs' (and other Muslims') stance on the palestinians before it became so fashionable to use them as an excuse for disregarding the right of existence - or the existence itself! - of Israel? And why do you try to "awake" us now, that it is generally accepted, that Israel and a palestinian state should coexist (as propagated by your sig)?

Edited June 20, 2008 by samm

[Sand]

I don't really give a damn what happened centuries ago. Lets live in the here and now. The US and Britain made Israel in the 40's for the Jewish people to live which pissed off the Arabs in the area. In the 60's the Arabs got uppity and attacked Israel. That was their choice to attack Israel and they have been whining ever since they got their butts kicked. If you are going to attack another nation expect there to be consequences.

 

Also the God of Israel is the same God as the Christians, as it is the same God of Islam. That is why he's a real narcissistic bastard in my opinion. He created three religions to venerate and give glory to him, yet have members of those religions attack and kill one another in his name. Worship a prick like that? No thank you.

[Pidesco]

The founding of the modern Israeli state was perhaps, the most idiotic act in international politics ever. It just boggles the mind.

 

"Let's create a Jewish state by decree in the middle of Muslim territory, thus dislocating and pissing off Muslim tribes in the region, and every single Muslim state. Oh, and while we're at it, will give the Jews control over of the Muslim holy cities."

 

A retarded monkey could have figured out what the consequences would be.

[samm]

Sure, but it does exist now, so no sense in denying its existence, is there.

[Pidesco]

Of course.

[Sand]

The founding of the modern Israeli state was perhaps, the most idiotic act in international politics ever. It just boggles the mind.

 

I agree. It would have been better to carve it out of Germany and Austria, but hindsight is always 20/20.

[Pidesco]

No, it would have been better not to give the Jews any state whatsoever. Also, hindsight wasn't necessary to see what was coming to the region.

[random n00b]

A retarded monkey could have figured out what the consequences would be.

Sure. Because back then in 1947, the Arab world was conceivably as big a threat as 1939 Germany had been.

 

OMG! How could they not see the onset of global terrorism!

 

And, looking at the numbers, they weren't off-mark by much, really. I'll take highly localized, moderately low-intensity conflicts over World Wars any day, thank you.

[Pidesco]

What?

[random n00b]

What do you mean, what?

[Pidesco]

First, with the creation of Israel they didn't, in any way, try to avoid a new World War so I don't see where you're coming with that. Secondly while obviously they couldn't have predicted terrorism in its modern form, they certainly should have predicted the war that immediately started right after the British pulled out of the region, and the conflicts that continued and the tensions that mounted in the area over the next decades, which of course were completely avoidable.

[random n00b]

First, with the creation of Israel they didn't, in any way, try to avoid a new World War so I don't see where you're coming with that.

No, not immediately. They were trying to deal with one big problem of the 20th century so far, though, that had been an important theme in WWII (and before, too) and that had seen no closure by the war's end (antisemitism). Jews hadn't been the cause for WWII, but they had been used by Hitler in his rise to power.

 

 

Secondly while obviously they couldn't have predicted terrorism in its modern form, they certainly should have predicted the war that immediately started right after the British pulled out of the region, and the conflicts that continued and the tensions that mounted in the area over the next decades, which of course were completely avoidable.

Lol, you think they didn't see it coming? Don't flatter yourself.

 

They didn't care though because the Arabs weren't considered a threat. So they dumped the Jews over there and were done with it. Easier than any of the alternatives at the time, probably.

 

Lol armchair statesmanship

[Walsingham]

I would participate, but as I already pointed out, I'm delirious, and this would be difficult at the best of times.