The new European constitution, part deux

[Meshugger]

Official Page.

 

 

I am severly against myself, it puts more power to the EU itself on the expense of the member states. As we all know, more centralisation means more beaurocracy and less democracy and efficiency. Hopefully the Irish will vote with a big "NO".

 

[Meshugger]

In order to get some non-europeans to the matter. It is basically the same as the old European constitution, but it was thrown into the dust bin after both France and Holland vote "No" in their respective referendums. This is one is the very same document, sign as a treaty by the prime ministers, which creates a new constitution. Talk about throwing the will of the people down the drain.

 

Come on you people on the emerald isle! Say no to centralization, say no to more power to the politicians in brussels. Say yes to your own political power!

Edited June 5, 2008 by Meshugger

[taks]

are the leaders of the EU government elected, or appointed?

 

taks

[Pidesco]

At least some are appointed. I'm not sure if a few aren't elected by the European Parliament.

 

 

I'm totally in favour of more centralized government in Europe, by the way.

[Meshugger]

Currently, the European parliament is by elected officials from each member state, there is also the European Counsil, who consists of the prime ministers or presidents of each member country (they are ofcourse elected as well), and the European Counsil, which is appointed by the European Parliament, which makes it even more washy.

 

The European Counsil suggested the treaty, which the parliament also agreed on. A real shame for the voters indeed.

 

The beaurocracy is already horrendous with the current system.

[Pidesco]

Council!

[Xard]

ITT Northern Europeans bitch about EU and Southern + Eastern Europeans support it

[SteveThaiBinh]

Daniel Hannan often has interesting posts on the EU and, as he puts it, the European Constitution Lisbon Treaty. I don't have any problem with the contents of the treaty, but I do object to the way it was done, and that fact that it's being forced through despite the likelihood that in many European countries, if the promised referenda were held, the treaty would not be approved. I care a great deal about the European project but if it continues to drive forward headlong without engaging popular support it will come crashing down around us.

[DeathScepter]

if a government is favors too much in being centralization, then it will fail and the oppositie is true also.

 

there should be a healthy balance of centralization and county/states right. I am quite prideful american and I don't want too much government(at least a ineffective government or overreaching one), I am pretty sure many europeans feel the same way.

[Pidesco]

ITT Northern Europeans bitch about EU and Southern + Eastern Europeans support it

 

While that's kind of true, it isn't that clear cut. There's a very large number of people in Portugal that are against the EU.

[Morgoth]

If Ireland says NO at the referendum, they may face a kick-out of the EU, because the rest of the 26 EU members who signed the Lisbon treaty won't let to put a spoke in their wheel.

[Meshugger]

Currently, the European Parliament is by elected officials from each member state, there is also the European Council, who consists of the prime ministers or presidents of each member country (they are ofcourse elected as well), and the European Commission, which is appointed by the European Parliament, which makes it even more washy.

 

The European Council suggested the treaty, which the parliament also agreed on. A real shame for the voters indeed.

 

The beaurocracy is already horrendous with the current system.

 

Fixed.

 

Thanks, Pidesco

Edited June 5, 2008 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

If Ireland says NO at the referendum, they may face a kick-out of the EU, because the rest of the 26 EU members who signed the Lisbon treaty won't let to put a spoke in their wheel.

 

If the politicians would really like to alienate themselves against their voters, then yeah. In reality, nope.

[Pidesco]

Currently, the European Parliament is by elected officials from each member state, there is also the European Council, who consists of the prime ministers or presidents of each member country (they are ofcourse elected as well), and the European Commission, which is appointed by the European Parliament, which makes it even more washy.

 

The European Council suggested the treaty, which the parliament also agreed on. A real shame for the voters indeed.

 

The beaurocracy is already horrendous with the current system.

 

Fixed.

 

Thanks, Pidesco

 

You missed "bureaucracy."

[Gorth]

ITT Northern Europeans bitch about EU and Southern + Eastern Europeans support it

 

While that's kind of true, it isn't that clear cut. There's a very large number of people in Portugal that are against the EU.

EU wasn't the only reason, but it was a major contributor to my leaving Europe behind and going elsewhere (you know the old saying, if you hate it so much here, why don't you just leave?)

 

(insatiable curiosity was the other reason)

[Walsingham]

I'm a big fan of Europeans. I'm utterly confused by the suggestion that we should tie ourselves to an unelected bunch of proven imbeciles.

[SteveThaiBinh]

If Ireland says NO at the referendum, they may face a kick-out of the EU, because the rest of the 26 EU members who signed the Lisbon treaty won't let to put a spoke in their wheel.

The leaders of Europe wouldn't dare expel a member state. What if Ireland proved it could prosper outside the union?

[Meshugger]

Currently, the European Parliament is by elected officials from each member state, there is also the European Council, who consists of the prime ministers or presidents of each member country (they are ofcourse elected as well), and the European Commission, which is appointed by the European Parliament, which makes it even more washy.

 

The European Council suggested the treaty, which the parliament also agreed on. A real shame for the voters indeed.

 

The beaurocracy is already horrendous with the current system.

 

Fixed.

 

Thanks, Pidesco

 

You missed "bureaucracy."

 

D'oh!

[Walsingham]

If Ireland says NO at the referendum, they may face a kick-out of the EU, because the rest of the 26 EU members who signed the Lisbon treaty won't let to put a spoke in their wheel.

The leaders of Europe wouldn't dare expel a member state. What if Ireland proved it could prosper outside the union?

 

I don't think Ireland can, to be fair. It's got a massive amount of economic benefit from membership.

[Humodour]

If Ireland says NO at the referendum, they may face a kick-out of the EU, because the rest of the 26 EU members who signed the Lisbon treaty won't let to put a spoke in their wheel.

The leaders of Europe wouldn't dare expel a member state. What if Ireland proved it could prosper outside the union?

 

I don't think Ireland can, to be fair. It's got a massive amount of economic benefit from membership.

 

No, the thing is Ireland's economy is based in the post-industrial sector - IT and scientific research.

[Humodour]

ITT Northern Europeans bitch about EU and Southern + Eastern Europeans support it

 

While that's kind of true, it isn't that clear cut. There's a very large number of people in Portugal that are against the EU.

EU wasn't the only reason, but it was a major contributor to my leaving Europe behind and going elsewhere (you know the old saying, if you hate it so much here, why don't you just leave?)

 

(insatiable curiosity was the other reason)

 

Grass is greener, hey?

 

And was it greener here?

[Gorth]

ITT Northern Europeans bitch about EU and Southern + Eastern Europeans support it

 

While that's kind of true, it isn't that clear cut. There's a very large number of people in Portugal that are against the EU.

EU wasn't the only reason, but it was a major contributor to my leaving Europe behind and going elsewhere (you know the old saying, if you hate it so much here, why don't you just leave?)

 

(insatiable curiosity was the other reason)

 

Grass is greener, hey?

 

And was it greener here?

4 out of 5 trees in my garden died from the drought and water restrictions...

 

Edit: To answer your question, yes. I feel more comfortable here than I did back in Europe.

[Brdavs]

Ireland is arguably the country that benefited most from EU membership over the years... Just read up on some history books and compare. Heck for years Irish have been the biggest net gainers of European funds and those funds helped transform the Irish economy from an underdeveloped one into what it is today. It`s silly contemplating how they`d fair outside of the EU at this point, every economy in europe would suffer negative effects if it left the common market, that much should be as obvious as 1+1 heh...

 

As for the Lisbon Treaty opposition... that`s funny imo. A funny fear of federalisation or something in those lines I guess... spurred on by nationalistic sentiment that should really be a relic of the past when it comes to these things...

As a guy 3/4 into gaining an education in the fields this treaty cover I can tell you that the EU and this treaty is all about harmonising national legislatures to ease the life on the common market. People get their panties in a knot when word "constitution" gets mentioned yet they fail to understand that all internationall agreements supercede/outrank their national constitutuins. That things in this treaty (and others) are most importantly the streamlining of the buerocracy in the light of recent expansion (more power to the downsized parliament, end of the rotation of precedency etc.) and most abundatly 1millionand1 technicalicies and tinkerings with legal mechanics under the hood most don`t care about or even know they`re there.

 

I mean it`s hillarious. Brits would rather die then give an inch to the EU when it comes to the public eye BUT behind the scenes harmonizations of legal and economic concepts that radically differ from angloamerican and continental approach are taking place unopposed. Accounting standards, companies managment, harmonizing of education so you can more easily find employment in another country, harmonizing of the labour law etc. etc. etc. And when I say behind the scenes I dont mean behind the scenes because some EU villain is trying to keep it a secret but because nobody *cares* about it much. Not enough to get all nationalistic about them that is. Spears and shields are splintered on trivial things (like the UK "refund") - to appease the minds of the public and net the far rightwingers some votes, whilst the really big things that make lives easier in the community and respective members get done with no big deal. Irony abound. And white mice everywhere.

 

The reality of the EU is that it is primarily economic integration. As much as I`d personally love to see it being taken to a higher level to present a reasonable alternative to the existing movers&shakers of the world I cant see it happening very soon - bar something major and unexpected. And if it were, would it be the end of the world? Arguably for the firs time in history Europeans arent killing eachother heh. Must be one of the few positive sides of money ruling the world. If instead of US type "democracy exporting" the "EU concept" was to be exported the world would be much better off imho.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Brdavs

[Humodour]

ITT Northern Europeans bitch about EU and Southern + Eastern Europeans support it

 

While that's kind of true, it isn't that clear cut. There's a very large number of people in Portugal that are against the EU.

EU wasn't the only reason, but it was a major contributor to my leaving Europe behind and going elsewhere (you know the old saying, if you hate it so much here, why don't you just leave?)

 

(insatiable curiosity was the other reason)

 

Grass is greener, hey?

 

And was it greener here?

4 out of 5 trees in my garden died from the drought and water restrictions...

 

Edit: To answer your question, yes. I feel more comfortable here than I did back in Europe.

 

Bloody hell, do you live in Goulburn or something?

[Gorth]

Bloody hell, do you live in Goulburn or something?

Adelaide, SA