Dutch Embassy bombed in Pakistan

[Darque]

So many people on both sides want a fight, I'm surprised it hasn't really gone full blown yet.

[Walsingham]

So many people on both sides want a fight, I'm surprised it hasn't really gone full blown yet.

 

Because so many more people DON'T? And that's really something to be proud of.

[Yuusha]

Islam is NOT the middle east. It is not Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia. It is a set of ideas, a way of life that transcends geographical and political boundaries. I somehow get the feeling that most members here are having difficulties understanding that. Going on and on about the Middle East as if it represents Islam as a whole. Or about how 'Islam' treat women like crap when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

If any of you really want to know about Islam, I suggest you renew your subscription to FOX News coz we all know that's the best source of information when it comes to Islam.

[Walsingham]

Yuusha, as a feeling that's valid, but do give us some credit. The wider world may think only Arabs are Muslim and vice versa, but we're a wee bit better informed here.

 

Anyway, and continuing on from your point, what are your feelings on the embassy attack? What are the feelings of Indonesian Muslims in general?

[Meshugger]

My problem with Islam is that it doesn't seperate the state from the individuals relationship with their god. Also, it seems to have trouble with accepting other religions (paying a tribute and be more or less treated as second-class citizens) and the whole Jihad thing. Moreover, while the Qu'ran mentions that one thing can preceed another, there are writings of women are as good as pets or cattle, peace is when everyone is a muslim, and every non-believer is to be killed unless changing to Islam. This is also, like the bible, written differently in other parts, which makes it very confusing. And while were at it, and taking the Hadith's into consideration, the very prophet behaved very inhumane and was a barbarian at times. Not exactly someone who would transcend the ages. And ofcourse, the whole "while dying in battle for islam is great in the eyes of god" is mentioned a lot, which isn't exactly the religion of peace.

 

Ofcourse there are millions of muslims out there that consciously reject those ideas, or being happily ignorant to them. People who want to eat, work, sleep and spend time with their families, you know, good guys. But since the clerics claim (yeah right) that the Qu'ran hasn't been altered in any way and is God's holy creation, it puts the normal person into a corner, and between a rock and a hard place.

 

My take, as with every other religion, is that if your god grants the heavenly kingdoms for anyone fighting in his cause is not something of a divine plan. It sounds more like a s****y plan done by a mere mortal who wants to have a fun game with his toy-soldiers, which makes him an ass****. Humans are not ants for someones amusement, allowing them wage war against themselves and their peers in order to get into the heavenly gates just because the divinity "says so". It is a direct violation of any sense and reason. So, all in all, .case.fecking.closed.

[Sand]

I am in complete agreement with Meshugger.

[Pidesco]

Actually, traditionally, Muslims usually treated the people of the book better than the Jews or the Christians did. The reason, for example, why learned Jewish people started popping up in Muslim Spain in the Middle Ages, was because among the Muslims they didn't suffer the same rampant prosecution that they in Christian lands. It was only with the Muslims' loss in power and cultural significance that they started to become more close minded and fundamentalist. I believe it is basically a desperate way to preserve their culture. Culturally, they feel and they are, effectively under siege.

[Xard]

Muslim tolerance in Iberian peninsula is often vastly exaggarated however

[random n00b]

My problem with Islam is that it doesn't seperate the state from the individuals relationship with their god. Also, it seems to have trouble with accepting other religions (paying a tribute and be more or less treated as second-class citizens) and the whole Jihad thing. Moreover, while the Qu'ran mentions that one thing can preceed another, there are writings of women are as good as pets or cattle, peace is when everyone is a muslim, and every non-believer is to be killed unless changing to Islam. This is also, like the bible, written differently in other parts, which makes it very confusing. And while were at it, and taking the Hadith's into consideration, the very prophet behaved very inhumane and was a barbarian at times. Not exactly someone who would transcend the ages. And ofcourse, the whole "while dying in battle for islam is great in the eyes of god" is mentioned a lot, which isn't exactly the religion of peace.

 

Ofcourse there are millions of muslims out there that consciously reject those ideas, or being happily ignorant to them. People who want to eat, work, sleep and spend time with their families, you know, good guys. But since the clerics claim (yeah right) that the Qu'ran hasn't been altered in any way and is God's holy creation, it puts the normal person into a corner, and between a rock and a hard place.

 

My take, as with every other religion, is that if your god grants the heavenly kingdoms for anyone fighting in his cause is not something of a divine plan. It sounds more like a s****y plan done by a mere mortal who wants to have a fun game with his toy-soldiers, which makes him an ass****. Humans are not ants for someones amusement, allowing them wage war against themselves and their peers in order to get into the heavenly gates just because the divinity "says so". It is a direct violation of any sense and reason. So, all in all, .case.fecking.closed.

Ah, yes. The Truth is oh ever so clear when one has had the benefit of an education that fostered critical thought...

 

Of course, it's always easier to blame bad stuff on the devilish possession caused by abstract totems, than to accept that it's just human beings merely less fortunate than oneself.

 

It takes a very specific set of factors to breed violence within a person, and Islam is not one of them. It's like blaming school massacres on GTA.

[random n00b]

Muslim tolerance in Iberian peninsula is often vastly exaggarated however

I'd be very surprised if you were qualified to discuss that subject on equal terms with Pid and me.

[Tigranes]

Actually, traditionally, Muslims usually treated the people of the book better than the Jews or the Christians did.

 

This is absolutely true.

 

Also, if you want to talk about ridiculous commands in a Holy Book, Christianity has God ordering the massacre of defenceless women and children (Jericho, in Book of Joshua), the implicit consideration of slaves as a natural part of any household or society, blah, blah, I mean, it's all endless.

 

My (tentative) take on it? All holy books are a product of their time and age, and coloured by the social thoughts of that age, because they were divinely inspired, but ultimately written by humans for their use in their time. Not quite "god's word straight to paper" (which wouldn't really work anyway, would it?). That doesn't invalidate the bookie religions, but it changes things.

 

Who knows?

[Xard]

You're from Spain or what?

 

There were pogroms and such in Moor era too. They weren't as numerous or often as in christian western europe (it should be noted that slavic people had good relationships with jews so it was more of a western-southern-european thing than christial thing) but they did exist. In other parts of muslim world Middle Ages contain time periods when christians and jews were persecuted just like in western world.

 

Of course, it's always easier to blame bad stuff on the devilish possession caused by abstract totems, than to accept that it's just human beings merely less fortunate than oneself.

 

It takes a very specific set of factors to breed violence within a person, and Islam is not one of them. It's like blaming school massacres on GTA.

 

Of course it's not the religion that breeds the violence, it's the people who use it to their own ends is old, valid argument

 

But taking away religion's significance in equation is wrong. Islam has - just like Christianity - give birth to violence by itself. Not to say it is main reason but saying it is never ever reason is ludicruous too

[Meshugger]

My problem with Islam is that it doesn't seperate the state from the individuals relationship with their god. Also, it seems to have trouble with accepting other religions (paying a tribute and be more or less treated as second-class citizens) and the whole Jihad thing. Moreover, while the Qu'ran mentions that one thing can preceed another, there are writings of women are as good as pets or cattle, peace is when everyone is a muslim, and every non-believer is to be killed unless changing to Islam. This is also, like the bible, written differently in other parts, which makes it very confusing. And while were at it, and taking the Hadith's into consideration, the very prophet behaved very inhumane and was a barbarian at times. Not exactly someone who would transcend the ages. And ofcourse, the whole "while dying in battle for islam is great in the eyes of god" is mentioned a lot, which isn't exactly the religion of peace.

 

Ofcourse there are millions of muslims out there that consciously reject those ideas, or being happily ignorant to them. People who want to eat, work, sleep and spend time with their families, you know, good guys. But since the clerics claim (yeah right) that the Qu'ran hasn't been altered in any way and is God's holy creation, it puts the normal person into a corner, and between a rock and a hard place.

 

My take, as with every other religion, is that if your god grants the heavenly kingdoms for anyone fighting in his cause is not something of a divine plan. It sounds more like a s****y plan done by a mere mortal who wants to have a fun game with his toy-soldiers, which makes him an ass****. Humans are not ants for someones amusement, allowing them wage war against themselves and their peers in order to get into the heavenly gates just because the divinity "says so". It is a direct violation of any sense and reason. So, all in all, .case.fecking.closed.

Ah, yes. The Truth is oh ever so clear when one has had the benefit of an education that fostered critical thought...

 

Of course, it's always easier to blame bad stuff on the devilish possession caused by abstract totems, than to accept that it's just human beings merely less fortunate than oneself.

 

It takes a very specific set of factors to breed violence within a person, and Islam is not one of them. It's like blaming school massacres on GTA.

 

Oh, i don not claim that i have found "the truth". I apologize for that, for i am still searching for it. I doubt however, those who claim to have found it, like any religion would do. I have an idea of what breeds violence:

 

1) Lack of being able to forgive

2) Ignorance

3) Extreme sense of injustice

4) Failure to express and to communicate ones thought and feelings with words

5) Lack of Self-critizism

6) Supreme sense of self-rightousness

7) Lack of being loved or express unconditional love

8 ) Jaded and lack of empathy to others suffering, only seeing the suffering of oneself and ones brethren

9) This might be too freudian and controversial, but the lack expressing oneself sexually and be sexually satisfied

 

That's all for now.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Meshugger

[Xard]

Muslim tolerance in Iberian peninsula is often vastly exaggarated however

I'd be very surprised if you were qualified to discuss that subject on equal terms with Pid and me.

 

ooh, wikipedia had some actual information!

[Meshugger]

Actually, traditionally, Muslims usually treated the people of the book better than the Jews or the Christians did. The reason, for example, why learned Jewish people started popping up in Muslim Spain in the Middle Ages, was because among the Muslims they didn't suffer the same rampant prosecution that they in Christian lands. It was only with the Muslims' loss in power and cultural significance that they started to become more close minded and fundamentalist. I believe it is basically a desperate way to preserve their culture. Culturally, they feel and they are, effectively under siege.

 

I think that most people who have read history are aware of that. Also, like any other kingdom or religion, they were conquered by the sword and not by the pen, reason or love. But what has that to do with the tenets of the Qu'ran? Some people interpret it more nicely than others?

[random n00b]

You're from Spain or what?

Yeah. And the fact that we aren't taught the barbarism of the Umayyads (more like the opposite), should speak volumes, considering they were invaders and had to be kicked out for a fully "Christian" kingdom to be established.

 

 

There were pogroms and such in Moor era too. They weren't as numerous or often as in christian western europe (it should be noted that slavic people had good relationships with jews so it was more of a western-southern-european thing than christial thing) but they did exist. In other parts of muslim world Middle Ages contain time periods when christians and jews were persecuted just like in western world.

Actually, it was a period of unprecedented advancement in the region, not seen since the fall of the Roman Empire... Of course, it eventually came down to petty plotting and backstabbing, and things declined. And then... the Empi... er... Christians Struck Back!

 

 

But taking away religion's significance in equation is wrong. Islam has - just like Christianity - give birth to violence by itself. Not to say it is main reason but saying it is never ever reason is ludicruous too

Why? Religion is just like any other social tool. You think TV or the Internets are actually opening your mind? Hominids killed their peers long before they had firearms. It's just a scapegoat. And, as Wals cleverly pointed out, we're just playing into the hands of the fundies by centering on Islam, instead of those pulling its strings.

 

 

Oh, i don not claim that i have found "the truth". I apologize for that, for i am still searching for it. I doubt however, those who claim to have found it, like any religion would do. I have an idea of what breeds violence:

 

1) Lack of being able to forgive

2) Ignorance

3) Extreme sense of injustice

4) Failure to express and to communicate ones thought and feelings with words

5) Lack of Self-critizism

6) Supreme sense of self-rightousness

7) Lack of being loved or express unconditional love

8 ) Jaded and lack of empathy to others suffering, only seeing the suffering of oneself and ones brethren

9) This might be too freudian and controversial, but the lack expressing oneself sexually and be sexually satisfied

 

That's all for now.

Actually, no. You don't need to have an entire population that's murderous - that's insane. It's much better to recruit those that are actually capable of doing the killing (which may account for about ~1% of the population in the West, I don't know over there), and then manipulate the rest into tolerating it. We invented that, as well. Hitler nailed it. I'm fairly confident that your average Saudi Arab couldn't cut your head off, even if he wanted. On the other hand, it doesn't bother him too much if another American Imperialist Pig is disemboweled. As I said, it takes a very specific set of factors to make a murderer, chief among them being victim of abuse as a child, but also neurological disorders.

 

What the hell am I talking about anyway...

[Meshugger]

Oh, i don not claim that i have found "the truth". I apologize for that, for i am still searching for it. I doubt however, those who claim to have found it, like any religion would do. I have an idea of what breeds violence:

 

1) Lack of being able to forgive

2) Ignorance

3) Extreme sense of injustice

4) Failure to express and to communicate ones thought and feelings with words

5) Lack of Self-critizism

6) Supreme sense of self-rightousness

7) Lack of being loved or express unconditional love

8 ) Jaded and lack of empathy to others suffering, only seeing the suffering of oneself and ones brethren

9) This might be too freudian and controversial, but the lack expressing oneself sexually and be sexually satisfied

 

That's all for now.

Actually, no. You don't need to have an entire population that's murderous - that's insane. It's much better to recruit those that are actually capable of doing the killing (which may account for about ~1% of the population in the West, I don't know over there), and then manipulate the rest into tolerating it. We invented that, as well. Hitler nailed it. I'm fairly confident that your average Saudi Arab couldn't cut your head off, even if he wanted. On the other hand, it doesn't bother him too much if another American Imperialist Pig is disemboweled. As I said, it takes a very specific set of factors to make a murderer, chief among them being victim of abuse as a child, but also neurological disorders.

 

What the hell am I talking about anyway...

 

I think were going a bit tooo offtopic here, yes

 

I see your point there though. But we're debating from two different angles here. I claim that the scripture of the Qu'ran is like the bible, easy to interpret to "kill everyone that isn't a muslim", which is working against the mindset of any culture trying to evolve. You're talking about the social implications of what creates murderers and those who cynically can live with it.....i guess

Edited June 5, 2008 by Meshugger

[random n00b]

Ah, yeah. I guess I forgot to make my point - can't think straight when I haven't slept.

 

The deal is, Islam is not what's pushing people to kill. It's just the tool used to generate a group identity that can then be redirected into a "US vs THEM" mentality, enough to have people support terrorism (or be able to look the other side, at least). Unfortunately, the exact same attitude is prevalent in the West, only in a negative.

 

This is from Metadigital's profile, but I think it illustrates this very well:

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html

[Meshugger]

Ah, yeah. I guess I forgot to make my point - can't think straight when I haven't slept.

 

The deal is, Islam is not what's pushing people to kill. It's just the tool used to generate a group identity that can then be redirected into a "US vs THEM" mentality, enough to have people support terrorism (or be able to look the other side, at least). Unfortunately, the exact same attitude is prevalent in the West, only in a negative.

 

This is from Metadigital's profile, but I think it illustrates this very well:

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html

 

True. It's just a whole lot easier with Islam as a tool by the establishment.

[Xard]

There were pogroms and such in Moor era too. They weren't as numerous or often as in christian western europe (it should be noted that slavic people had good relationships with jews so it was more of a western-southern-european thing than christial thing) but they did exist. In other parts of muslim world Middle Ages contain time periods when christians and jews were persecuted just like in western world.

Actually, it was a period of unprecedented advancement in the region, not seen since the fall of the Roman Empire... Of course, it eventually came down to petty plotting and backstabbing, and things declined. And then... the Empi... er... Christians Struck Back!

 

Don't make mistake I wouldn't know about this. History has always been no.1 interest as far as sciences go. I remember making huge (15 pages when it had to be 3) presentation on history of racism and discrimination in case of Reconquista. (Then I got only average grades because "it was too deep for secondary school, students can't understand that. If you were in High School this would be straight 10". After that I haven't really, really dug in schoolwork ever again. The one time I have will to work hard and then it is too good? Oh **** it all)

 

If I had to choose where to live in Middle Ages I would've propably chosen Moor Iberia without second thought. Or maybe some other highly cultured region in arabian empire. But being a moor would've been number one choice

 

 

However nowadays it is often exaggarated how moors were sooooo gooood and civilized and nice etc. that people forget they did nasty stuff too for their minorities among other things. They weren't that much better in this regard though still culturally far above "europeans"

 

But taking away religion's significance in equation is wrong. Islam has - just like Christianity - give birth to violence by itself. Not to say it is main reason but saying it is never ever reason is ludicruous too

Why? Religion is just like any other social tool. You think TV or the Internets are actually opening your mind? Hominids killed their peers long before they had firearms. It's just a scapegoat. And, as Wals cleverly pointed out, we're just playing into the hands of the fundies by centering on Islam, instead of those pulling its strings.

 

 

 

No, but religion can and does work as motive for deeds just as well greed or anything such. It is rare but not nonexistant

 

I think Dawkins has written on this, how religious people often hide behind "it's not the religion, it's the nasty people!" argument and then decide not to bat an eyelash for morally ambigious and dangerous aspects of religion that can on their own work as motivator for ill deeds.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Xard

[random n00b]

No, but religion can and does work as motive for deeds just as well greed or anything such. It is rare but not nonexistant

Actually, psychopaths need very little motivation to "take the next step", to kill. In fact, an appeal to their vanity (the dying for God thing) and the assurance that there will be no reprisals (they'll be dead) can be just enough. Combine that with an often extremely low (the folks that do the bombing) or extremely high (the ones that plan them) IQ, and you have a winner. I'm not making up any of that.

 

You say greed or any other factor can be a motive to kill, and I agree. But then, why the fixation on Islam?

 

 

I think Dawkins has written on this, how religious people often hide behind "it's not the religion, it's the nasty people!" argument and then decide not to bat an eyelash for morally ambigious and dangerous aspects of religion that can on their own work as motivator for ill deeds.

I'm not defending the clerics. They *are* profitting from the fact that attention is diverted towards the Evil Others instead of their own domestic problems. They maintain the Theocracy status quo, after all.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Oh noes, did you see a cartoon you didn't like? Well, guess what, if you don't want people to dislike you, how about you stop blowing up things in fits of rage.

[Walsingham]

I am leaning towards random n00b's view. If I wasn't already slanted. Anyway, teh point is that I agree that you have unscrupulous bastards everywhere always looking for a way to fleece their brothers. Religion is one way to do that. As are corporations, cheeseburgers, sex, biros, and so on and so on.

 

Having said that, some things make better rallying cries than others. You're going to have less work to do corrupting a monotheistic religion that has fundamental truths than, say, Mickey Mouse. Having said that, some w*****rs managed to turn a religion who's stock greeting is "Peace be upon you" into an excuse for a punch up so go figure.

 

Back on topic, just because some guys blow up an embassy doesn't mean people nearby are with them. In fact if you think about it, if terrorists really spoke for the people they wouldn't have to hide. They'd be part of a mass movement.