old jedi order or new ?

[exile025]

well i am speaking about the jedi order that used to be during the Mandalorian Wars and the one on the Clone Wars . they both had their heroes who became villains ...

e.g: revan and Anakin Skaywalker ,

 

once upon the time Kreia said that the old sith-jedi used to be powerful and that a jedi from this age would be like a child holding a lightsaber...

 

so i believe that the old jedi order is stronger because it survived the The Great Hyperspace War,The Old Sith Wars,The Great Sith War,The Mandalorian Wars,

the new jedi didn't even survived the clone wars , so let the force guide you hand and express you opinions ...

[Miltiades]

If you're talking about the Jedi Order as an organization, then it'd be the Jedi Order during the Sith Wars for sure. The Jedi Order during the Clone Wars was too involved in politics, was blinded by arrogance and let the Chosen One slip out of their hands because of their fear for the dark side. If you're talking about their heroes, I'd still go for the Old Jedi Order, because with Jedi Like Nomi Sunrider, Odan-Urr, the Qel-Droma's, Thon, Arca Jeth, Revan, Malak, the Exile, Bastila, Kavar, Vrook, you have the most powerful and gifted Jedi for a long time, and Jedi Like Yoda, Windu and Kenobi, who are still formidable, don't match up against these legends.

[DeathScepter]

comes to Kreia, take her words with a grain of salt.

[Diego Varen]

If you're talking about the Jedi Order as an organization, then it'd be the Jedi Order during the Sith Wars for sure. The Jedi Order during the Clone Wars was too involved in politics, was blinded by arrogance and let the Chosen One slip out of their hands because of their fear for the dark side. If you're talking about their heroes, I'd still go for the Old Jedi Order, because with Jedi Like Nomi Sunrider, Odan-Urr, the Qel-Droma's, Thon, Arca Jeth, Revan, Malak, the Exile, Bastila, Kavar, Vrook, you have the most powerful and gifted Jedi for a long time, and Jedi Like Yoda, Windu and Kenobi, who are still formidable, don't match up against these legends.

 

I agree. While the old Jedi Order is flawed, at least they didn't allow politics in (I don't like politics in real life).

[LadyCrimson]

Sith War period here, too.

Over centuries such organizations almost inevitably become diluted by something - whether politics, genetics, loss of knowledge/history, greed or fear.

[Brdavs]

Well the order of k1 & k2 is a big lost opportuninty as it`s basically a carbon copy of the PT abd OT...

 

I mean, seriously, they seemed just as imersed into politics in the games as in the movies, they had more than their fair share of prodigies lost to the DS (Raven, Malak and lets not even get into the comics and Q-Dormas heh) and they too managed do get their arses all but exterminated ("offscreen" even, thoe apparently coming close on several occasions be4 that) to have the "last of the jedi" theme going on...

Would some1 point me to an obvious difference other than saying Vrook kicks Yodas arse cos he, well, came before him heh? I was under the impression the line from Kreia was refering to the jedi and sith of old old, comparing them to the order&sith she knew anyways.

 

So on the "kick butt scale" they wouldn`t really rank that much higher imho. But I guess the notion of long lost lore knowledge an power is too romantic to dismiss heh...

But going by that scale I`d go with the Order that fought the Brotherhood of Darkness in the New sith wars... they had a full head on war with the sith, picked up military ranks and a standing army of theirown allong the way, and were generally whooping eachothers buts with the dark lords... unlike the whole "cloak&dagger, dependant on 1 special guy to save the galaxy from a threath *directed* by the sith" thing other eras had going for them... So I guess the order that later gave up its power&army of light and reformed into the PT order takes the cake for being the most badass...

 

Omf how geeky can you get brdavs... :/

Edited June 1, 2008 by Brdavs

[Jediphile]

If you're talking about the Jedi Order as an organization, then it'd be the Jedi Order during the Sith Wars for sure. The Jedi Order during the Clone Wars was too involved in politics, was blinded by arrogance and let the Chosen One slip out of their hands because of their fear for the dark side. If you're talking about their heroes, I'd still go for the Old Jedi Order, because with Jedi Like Nomi Sunrider, Odan-Urr, the Qel-Droma's, Thon, Arca Jeth, Revan, Malak, the Exile, Bastila, Kavar, Vrook, you have the most powerful and gifted Jedi for a long time, and Jedi Like Yoda, Windu and Kenobi, who are still formidable, don't match up against these legends.

 

I agree. While the old Jedi Order is flawed, at least they didn't allow politics in (I don't like politics in real life).

 

I disagree completely. Politics is a fact of life, and given the power of the jedi order, it will be a political factor whether it wants to acknowledge it or not. That is the real flaw of the old order - they thought they could just stay neutral in a interstellar war waged directly against the Republic. But an organisation as powerful as the jedi order does not - cannot - exist without being a political factor. If they try, they leave a power vacuum for the enemy to exploit. Or to take the Spidey-argument: "With great power comes great responsibility." The jedi order is supposed to be the guardians of the Republic. It's their duty, and the Republic depend on the order to fill that role. The council failed the Republic because they refused to acknowledge this. Revan split the order because he realised this and did something about it. It's a "you're either part of the problem or part of the solution" kind of thing. And by deciding to not get involved and let billions of innocents die at the hands of the Mandalorians, the old jedi order was definitely not part of the solution.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions. {Quiet}And I was not the only Jedi Master to watch a student turn on them. No, no - they were not to blame, but many of the Order did so - it was a difficult time, a time of strong emotion.Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead.{Frustrated}Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council. And I was not the only one. That is why many scattered... and why many in the Republic do not trust us. And why we do not trust ourselves. "

 

So for all their flaws and inability to see the obvious right in front of them, I'll take the jedi order of the Clone Wars over the order we've seen in the KotOR games any time, because Yoda and Mace and the rest at least acknowledged that they could not escape their responsibility as guardians of the Republic and the part they play in the politics of the Republic. They tried and failed, but that's still better than the old order who refused to even try and just hid their heads in the sand hoping the problems would go away and by doing so did far more damage - the invasion of the Mandalorians, the order being split, Revan and Malak falling to the dark side, and the Exile becoming a wound in the force are all consequences of their refusal to step up to their responsibilities.

[Guest The Architect]

What is it with Jedi council members being a bunch of morons?

[DeathScepter]

they sign a contract that states that they must follow the one with the lowest IQ. Maybe why Revan and the others went to the dark side because They gotten fed up with Jedi Council's inherited stupidity. At least I would.

Edited June 2, 2008 by DeathScepter

[Jediphile]

Actually, I think they signed a contract with LA to only make choices so unwise and strategically unsound that their students have no choice but to question them and then arrogantly defend their position regardless of counterarguments, so that students have no choice but protest. Or how would there ever be a basis for a plot? Also, same principle on many real-world universities, I hear

[Darth Clumber]

I would have to go with the old Jedi order being more powerful because the new one was kind of taken down by a single person, while it took 2 wars and a super power-sucking monster of the force to take out the old order.

[Bass-GameMaster]

they sign a contract that states that they must follow the one with the lowest IQ. Maybe why Revan and the others went to the dark side because They gotten fed up with Jedi Council's inherited stupidity. At least I would.

 

Excuse me if im played as an ass here.. But What in the living hell are you talking about??? Revan fell to the dark side merely to reap the benefits and strengthen the universe for the upcoming "True Sith".

[Darth Clumber]

Revan may have, but everyone who followed him fell to the dark side because they no longer trusted in the Jedi council after they had let the mandalorians go unapposed. That is also the original reason that Revan left to fight in the Mandalorian wars (because I doubt he knew about the threat before he left).

[Jediphile]

The reason for Revan turning to the dark side is not revealed. Oh sure, lots and lots of characters speculate about it - the masters say he fell because it was inevitable after he defied them (and they are objective on that subject, of course ), GOTO and Disciple both speculate Revan saw a war on a different front (which is probably meant as aa reference to the "true Sith"), while Kreia thinks that he never fell but rather chose to become the dark lord (and she is an impartial source, being his proud master and all ), but actually nobody knows the real reason.

 

Why not?

 

Because it's for the player to decide why Revan fell. The actual reason is not important in K1, and in TSL it's implied there may have been good reasons, though only by highly speculating or very unreliable sources, so the real reason again lies with the player. It's at the same time one of the best things about the writing in the plot so far and one of the most dangerous aspects of Revan as a character - he is oh so powerful and did it all for EXACTLY the reasons you wanted him to. That's why there are so many Revan-fanboys out there...

[Bass-GameMaster]

It could be viewed as "your" choice but theres enough substantial information to state he didn't just merely fall. He aided the republic in the mando war's not because he was evil but merely to end the threat. The council was doing absolutely nothing! Which fueled Revan to take immediate action. Now he was never "Dark" lord but was very close to completely falling. And its not he didn't trust the council Kreia taught him they were flawed... its obvious, I mean she did the same thing to Exile. Now there are many speculations on why he went to the darkside, but its shown that the old republic wasn't ready for any kind of threat involving betrayal. Yes he caused many lifes.. but Revan's always believed in the "Greater Good"

[Jediphile]

It could be viewed as "your" choice but theres enough substantial information to state he didn't just merely fall. He aided the republic in the mando war's not because he was evil but merely to end the threat. The council was doing absolutely nothing! Which fueled Revan to take immediate action. Now he was never "Dark" lord but was very close to completely falling. And its not he didn't trust the council Kreia taught him they were flawed... its obvious, I mean she did the same thing to Exile. Now there are many speculations on why he went to the darkside, but its shown that the old republic wasn't ready for any kind of threat involving betrayal. Yes he caused many lifes.. but Revan's always believed in the "Greater Good"

 

It's speculative. While especially G0T0 and Disciple tell us there might have been ulterior motives for the path Revan chose, it is still just speculation. It is just as easy to suggest that Revan saw the threat of the true Sith and vowed to stop it, but was corrupted by the compromises he made to attain that goal, or even that he saw the true Sith simply as a threat to the empire he wanted to establish. I would equally well argue that he used the threat of the Mandalorians as a convenient excuse to split the jedi order so he could form the basis of his own army by exploiting the dissent between the council who wanted to wait and the republic who wanted to fight and between the council and the youger jedi who wanted to join the struggle. If Revan was evil all along, then what he did is a good way to "devide and conquer" because he caused dissent both between the jedi order and the Republic as well as between the jedi masters and their students.

 

Since I always choose the LS ending for Revan in K1, I don't see Revan that way myself, but the point is you can make the argument just as well as any other. My own take is that Revan wanted to protect the Republic from the Mandalorians, then realised the threat of the true Sith and vowed to stop it for the sake of the greater good, but the dark side then corrupted him as he compromised his own ideals in the pursuit of that greater good, and by the time the Mandalorians were defeated, he no longer believed the Republic deserved to be preserved as the sort of entity it was. Otherwise it's hard to explain why Revan didn't use the Starforge to create an army to attack the true Sith with, but instead turned on the Republic. I mean, I'd agree that Revan sacrificed himself to prevent a greater evil, but I also believe he made the mistake that Luke and Ulic Qel-Droma made - he thought he could wield the dark side as a tool without being affected himself, and it ate him alive and twisted his goals. Instead of protecting the Republic from the Mandalorians and the true Sith for the sake of its principles of freedom, he turned to wanting to preserve it as a source for his own empire and whatever path saved more lives. It's a classic fallacy when a person compromises his ideals like this. His intentions may have been good, but those are exactly what makes the road to Hell...

[Bass-GameMaster]

We could argue for days... hows about a cookie?

 

/givecookie

[Jediphile]

Thanks

[Bass-GameMaster]

Anytime

[Darth_Sunnyboy]

*Asks for a cookie before he starts*

The way I see it, Revan splitted from the council to fight in the wars for his beliefs, but during that war, he felt drawn towards Korriban to learn some of the sith ways. To use the sith powers AGAINST the mandalorians. THAT is what drew him to the DS.. My oppinion tho..

As for Luke Skywalker, he chose darkside for a litle while to get in closer with the clone of the emperror, just to kill him. Took some time, but now he's both LS AND DS.. He's Grey side. He even married Mara Jade who was the Emperrors LEFT hand.. Darth Vader was the emperrors RIGHT hand.. =oP

I would go for the NEW order, in the NEW republic that is.. They have to kick Grand Admiral Thrawns butt, but THAT won't be easy since he's TOO darn smart for his own good. =oP

[Jediphile]

The way I see it, Revan splitted from the council to fight in the wars for his beliefs, but during that war, he felt drawn towards Korriban to learn some of the sith ways. To use the sith powers AGAINST the mandalorians. THAT is what drew him to the DS.. My oppinion tho..

 

The story of Revan's fall and the motives behind it something we don't know a lot about, probably because the developers wanted to the leave the reasons with the player. The only thing I've seen that sheds a bit of light upon it are the KotOR2 Chronicles, which are considered canon unless they contradict with other canon material, as I understand it.

 

It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed.

 

So does Revan turn to evil because he is twisted by Malachor V and has no other choice if he wants to live? Interestingly, it is the same choice he forces upon the jedi during the Battle of Malachor V later. But of course, it can also be interpreted that while Revan had to give up his morality and benevolence (assuming he had any), he was able to hold onto goals like protecting the republic from the Mandalorians and the true Sith. Regardless, the passage does seem to me to cast doubt on just how "voluntary" Revan's fall was. Maybe the KotOR comic book will shed more light on this, though I doubt it.

 

As for Luke Skywalker, he chose darkside for a litle while to get in closer with the clone of the emperror, just to kill him. Took some time, but now he's both LS AND DS..

 

Luke did indeed turn to the DS. It took Leia throwing her own life (and that of her unborn child) on the line, before Luke could reach a point where he could break away. Getting close to the emperor's clones was the intent behind his apparent choice to fall to the DS, certainly, but - like Ulic - he could not pretend to wield the DS without being affected by it, and it took Leia risking everything to bring him back to the LS.

[Darth_Sunnyboy]

I stand corrected.. Havent gotten the chance to read the books, but he DID fall in love with Mara Jade.. And HER story, is yet unknown to me..

[DSLuke]

I stand corrected.. Havent gotten the chance to read the books, but he DID fall in love with Mara Jade.. And HER story, is yet unknown to me..

She was a Jedi Knight as well by then...

[DeathScepter]

regardless of how revan fell/sacfirce himself to the darkside, I do think that he does have an element of power hungryness to him.

 

 

Many Jedi that fall to the dark side to tend to do it for the power regardless of the purity of their intentions.

[Bass-GameMaster]

regardless of how revan fell/sacfirce himself to the darkside, I do think that he does have an element of power hungryness to him.

 

 

Many Jedi that fall to the dark side to tend to do it for the power regardless of the purity of their intentions.

 

You dont seem to ever know what your talking about, you must use wikipedia for your sources..