4E already released!

[steelfiredragon]

4e 4gotten realms , I have Blacklisted.

 

will not buy anything for it past the blackstaff tower novel

[Seeker1]

I have to say, having now pored over my first set of 4E rulebooks, the new magic system ... blows.

 

Fine, I know the Vancian (memorization) system had its detractors. And so did the mana system used as an alternative in almost every other RPG or CRPG. However, if we allow mages to cast an infinite number of spells infinitely often, that blows, too, then they become invincible.

 

Well, 4E adopts the WoW-like "cooldown" system of making spells ... "powers" ... that can be used either once per encounter, once per day, or or at-will. (I'm surprised there aren't two more time-based options, such as once per turn or once per hour.)

 

But then it gets weird. See, not all "spells" are "powers". Just the combat ones. Almost all non-combat spells are now "rituals". Except, and maybe I'm losing my mind, but this is where things get hazy. "Rituals" appear to be like what used to be called "spells". They actually require components, they require resources, and they require time to cast. But ... now anybody can learn them. Not just spellcasters. Or even rogues who have mastered the read magic scroll skill. No, now, if your fighter knows the ritual to raise dead, he can do it too ... ???

 

AFAICT, now that things like magic missile or fireball are "powers" ... and most of the combat powers are "at will" (although a few are "once per encounter") ... I guess there's no more casting time, no components, just think n zap, once per round. "Powers" seem like "feats" and 4E still has "feats" and yet AFAICT the main difference between "powers" and "feats" is lots of classes can take various feats, whereas powers are always class-specific.

 

Basically, though, "powers" are almost all combat-focussed. It's like every other magic school other than evocation has vanished. No more alterations, summonings, conjurations, defensive spells, illusions, enchantments, teleportation ... what little is left of the other schools have become "rituals". Mages are basically walking blaster rifles now. And clerics? Well, their powers are very strictly limited to the very narrow kinds of things they could do in 1E, healing and buffing, and very little else. Cleric domains have disappeared. Druids, with magic focussed on nature, shapeshifting, summoning, and the elements... are gone. But natch, warlocks, the blaster rifles of 3.5E, have made a strong comeback. Many people said the warlocks were the model of things to come ... and they were.

 

(BTW AFAICT the only point of the new warlord class is that it's a fighter that can buff other people besides himself. For that, they had to make a new class? I don't get it.)

 

Don't like it. It's made both mages and clerics very narrow and generic. Turning everything that they do into "powers" and giving every other class "powers" too ... just doesn't work for me.

[Stephen Amber]

(BTW AFAICT the only point of the new warlord class is that it's a fighter that can buff other people besides himself. For that, they had to make a new class? I don't get it.)

 

Seems like the warlord replaced the bard in alot of ways. And that's one class swap I think many will have a tough time swallowing from an rp standpoint. The affable, charismatic bard bolstering spirits though his music and tale telling, as opposed to a grumpy general (or other military officer) barking out orders... to his peers none the less!

[steelfiredragon]

the bard is in the phb 2 along with the druid, and barbarian

 

the warlord blows, id rather have a char that sings and dances that one that attacks and yells at you.

Edited August 21, 2008 by steelfiredragon

[Tale]

I love my Warlord. She wades into the thick of it, hoisting the others up and telling them to get back into the fray.

 

"Get off the ground, soldier, and get back to the fight!" Has the feel of playing a squad leader in a war movie.

 

And that's one class swap I think many will have a tough time swallowing from an rp standpoint. The affable, charismatic bard bolstering spirits though his music and tale telling, as opposed to a grumpy general (or other military officer) barking out orders... to his peers none the less!

 

I think most adventuring companies and sellswords would welcome a grumpy general over some fop with a lute.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Tale

[steelfiredragon]

I love my Warlord. She wades into the thick of it, hoisting the others up and telling them to get back into the fray.

 

"Get off the ground, soldier, and get back to the fight!" Has the feel of playing a squad leader in a war movie.

 

And that's one class swap I think many will have a tough time swallowing from an rp standpoint. The affable, charismatic bard bolstering spirits though his music and tale telling, as opposed to a grumpy general (or other military officer) barking out orders... to his peers none the less!

 

I think most adventuring companies and sellswords would welcome a grumpy general over some fop with a lute.

 

 

ummm

 

no, they would welcome a competent sword arm over incompetence.

if your warlord is lvl 1, and the fop with the lute is lvl 5 and the mercenaries are all lvl 7+ who do you think they will take??

 

the correct answer is, most likely the bard, but they could take both.

 

 

and the bab is the same for all classes in this edition, and the bard is the arcane leader so.......

 

anyway

the bard sings at the pc's funeral , and the warlord just says a few kind words.....

id rather have the bard anyday, especially if they can still get spells and heal spells.

[Tale]

I love my Warlord. She wades into the thick of it, hoisting the others up and telling them to get back into the fray.

 

"Get off the ground, soldier, and get back to the fight!" Has the feel of playing a squad leader in a war movie.

 

And that's one class swap I think many will have a tough time swallowing from an rp standpoint. The affable, charismatic bard bolstering spirits though his music and tale telling, as opposed to a grumpy general (or other military officer) barking out orders... to his peers none the less!

 

I think most adventuring companies and sellswords would welcome a grumpy general over some fop with a lute.

 

 

ummm

 

no, they would welcome a competent sword arm over incompetence.

if your warlord is lvl 1, and the fop with the lute is lvl 5 and the mercenaries are all lvl 7+ who do you think they will take??

 

the correct answer is, most likely the bard, but they could take both.

 

 

and the bab is the same for all classes in this edition, and the bard is the arcane leader so.......

 

anyway

the bard sings at the pc's funeral , and the warlord just says a few kind words.....

id rather have the bard anyday, especially if they can still get spells and heal spells.

I dare you to make less sense.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Just started playing a Warlock... and I gotta say, its much better than it was in 3.5e... but I'd still rather have my 3.5e warmage back...

[Maria Caliban]

My favorite character right now is a tiefling feylock. Remember to grab up powers that target Will.

[Tale]

I kind of miss my 3.5e Warlock. But I won't scoff at the 4e version.

[I want teh kotor 3]

I kind of miss my 3.5e Warlock. But I won't scoff at the 4e version.

 

The more I play my 4e Warlock, the more I want my 3.5e one back. And I'd still rather have my warmage/fighter.

[Dracowyr]

My first impressions of the 4th Edition system is that they have been spending too much time playing World of Warcraft.

 

Game design in general now seems to be stuck on 'roles' for players. Tanks, Healer, Melee DPS, Range DPS, and Control/Utility. Now even D&D has jumped on the bandwagon. The advantage that pencil & paper role-playing games had over computer based games is that they allowed for more creative solutions that technology allowed. It seems from a design standpoint, that 4th Edition is a step backward...trying to cater to the video game generation.

 

I really feel that game design (pencil & paper or electronic) needs to move beyond the mechanics found in today's MMOs.

 

There are many aspects of 4th Edition that come across as cheap 'WOW the player' (pun intended) tactics. Granted, there isn't any edition that was flawless.

 

There are mechanics of the 4th Edition that seems insightful, but overall it feels like a 'me too' edition.

[Solo]

Ever since the end of 2nd addition I have been really sad as how the Ranger and Barbarian have been treated. I don't understand the logic in the game systems anymore. Everything has been dumbed down so much that I feel that instead of adding fun they have taken away the fun. But that's me.

 

But I guess I should, the next time at the book store, reread the sections on my favorite classes.

[Tale]

My experiences with 4e have taught me that most of the design for PnP RPGs is blatantly archaic and the players are too blind to realize it. Case in point is a particularly stupid houserule that I experienced in my 4e game. Critical failures. No matter whatever you do, you have a 5% chance of flailing about like a complete idiot. It's archaic, it's stupid, yet a number of PnP players seem to love it. And what's worse is that numerous PnP games have nonsense like that in their core rules. Even if it's just toned down to "you're not flailing like an idiot, but you are useless right now, so go get a soda and watch some TV."

 

Makes me appreciate the structured design of 4e all the more. Where they're not just tacking on every little silly rule they can get a hold of.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Tale

[Dark_Raven]

4e 4gotten realms , I have Blacklisted.

 

will not buy anything for it past the blackstaff tower novel

I won't buy any of their novels, games or resource books. They screwed up the rules and the settings thanks to 4E.

[Purkake]

My experiences with 4e have taught me that most of the design for PnP RPGs is blatantly archaic and the players are too blind to realize it. Case in point is a particularly stupid houserule that I experienced in my 4e game. Critical failures. No matter whatever you do, you have a 5% chance of flailing about like a complete idiot. It's archaic, it's stupid, yet a number of PnP players seem to love it. And what's worse is that numerous PnP games have nonsense like that in their core rules. Even if it's just toned down to "you're not flailing like an idiot, but you are useless right now, so go get a soda and watch some TV."

 

Makes me appreciate the structured design of 4e all the more. Where they're not just tacking on every little silly rule they can get a hold of.

 

Maybe the answer is a Call of Cthulhu style D100(%) system. Critical success/failure on 01/(1)00, makes it a bit better.

 

I don't like 4e too much, but then again I think that DnD has pretty much become the kitchen sink of PnP. It's mess of everything that ever was and without much explanation. There's a cave with a Beholder that's been terrorizing a village. Why? So that you can kill it and take its stuff. I did/do like Planescape, but not because of the rules, it's just a very imaginative setting.

 

Pretty much every other PnP system out there has a more focused setting/theme and a less convoluted system. They just can't seem to step away from all the old "sacred cows" and change it one piece at a time, making it more convoluted.