"Has US abstinence policy failed?"

[Gorth]

Comparing the social welfare in other nations to the US is flawed reasoning for a number of reasons. First off the population of the US is just shy of 500 million. The population of Iceland is 2.1 million, Canada is 11 million, Austrialia is 40 million. all of Scandanavia together has less people than New York, California, Florida and Texas alone. To paraphrase Ross Perot "You can't take the same business practices used to run a mom and pop country store and and extrapolate them to run Wal Mart (a major department store chain in the US)"

*Cough! Cough!*...

 

I shall refrain from making bad jokes about Americans and geography

 

Try checking the population numbers again: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...book/index.html

 

The link is fairly safe, they promise not to collect any information about you

[Guard Dog]

*Cough! Cough!*...

 

I shall refrain from making bad jokes about Americans and geography

 

Try checking the population numbers again: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...book/index.html

 

The link is fairly safe, they promise not to collect any information about you

Heh, I googled each of those countries and the word population. i pulled the numbers off the google synopsis without even opening the web pages. Except the part about Scandnavia, I read that is the Miami Herald a few weeks ago. Sorry for the sloppy research but I did all of that while stopped at traffic lights!

Edited April 29, 2008 by Guard Dog

[Sand]

The estimated US population right now is only 303,824,650, not 500 million.

[Moatilliatta]

So you all agree that "abstinence only sex education" is a crime to teach in schools right? The parents can teach it if they want, but the government has a duty to teach about contraception.

 

I had a rant about the flaws of the common uncompromising, anti-utilitarianism American form of libertarianism written up (including speculation on why it thrives only in America - likely due to a natural ally in conservative religious fundamentalism), but instead I'll just point out that by trying to ensure somebody has a 'right' to cram their religious dogma down the necks of impressionable children, in place of scientifically proven methods of STD prevention, aren't you in fact depriving all those children of the basic civil right to self-determination, choice?

 

Or would you contend they are perhaps not mature enough to see the 'evils' of contraception and thus make an 'informed' decision? I'm sure that logic will protect them when they are off experimenting with sex, but have only abstinence education to protect them from STDs and pregnancy (oh wait, no it doesn't). Hey, perhaps we can play a game of scapegoat and blame the victim instead?

I have absolutely no idea where you're going with this Krezack. Parents are always craming their dogma into their children, it's a natural effect of children living with their parents for some 18 years. Also as Guard Dog said, religious fundamentalism rarely stops at the family level and will always try to do like any other ideology and try to affect the rest of society through the government.

 

Reading that article makes me want to get my brain scanned just to see where I fit in.

[Humodour]

So you all agree that "abstinence only sex education" is a crime to teach in schools right? The parents can teach it if they want, but the government has a duty to teach about contraception.

 

I had a rant about the flaws of the common uncompromising, anti-utilitarianism American form of libertarianism written up (including speculation on why it thrives only in America - likely due to a natural ally in conservative religious fundamentalism), but instead I'll just point out that by trying to ensure somebody has a 'right' to cram their religious dogma down the necks of impressionable children, in place of scientifically proven methods of STD prevention, aren't you in fact depriving all those children of the basic civil right to self-determination, choice?

 

Or would you contend they are perhaps not mature enough to see the 'evils' of contraception and thus make an 'informed' decision? I'm sure that logic will protect them when they are off experimenting with sex, but have only abstinence education to protect them from STDs and pregnancy (oh wait, no it doesn't). Hey, perhaps we can play a game of scapegoat and blame the victim instead?

I have absolutely no idea where you're going with this Krezack. Parents are always craming their dogma into their children, it's a natural effect of children living with their parents for some 18 years. Also as Guard Dog said, religious fundamentalism rarely stops at the family level and will always try to do like any other ideology and try to affect the rest of society through the government.

 

Reading that article makes me want to get my brain scanned just to see where I fit in.

 

Sorry, I meant that a school has no right to decide to cram detrimental religious dogma down a child's neck, in terms of abstinence instead of contraception (not religion in general). Parents can do as they please (within the law) precisely because it is not feasible (or ethical) to control what a parent does.

 

Will reply to Guard Dog's post later today. He misinterpreted me on a few points, and on others I'd like to discuss.

[WITHTEETH]

Abstinence only education is usually shrouded in erroneous anti condom propaganda. This is dangerous. Im all for our teens knowing all the options and the statistics behind them. I think that will best prepare them for whats ahead.

 

Nice to see so many people with a level head in here.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Nice to see so many people with a level head in here.

 

Yeah... I thought there was going to be more of a debate.

[Humodour]

Abstinence only education is usually shrouded in erroneous anti condom propaganda. This is dangerous. Im all for our teens knowing all the options and the statistics behind them. I think that will best prepare them for whats ahead.

 

Nice to see so many people with a level head in here.

 

Indeed, I may in fact be preaching to the converted, and only end up offending the less fanatical libertarians of Obsidian, which is not my intent.

[Walsingham]

I don't see much difference between being taught sex ed, and the stuff I got growing up in Africa about not bothering snakes and lions.

 

*laughs*

 

Having said that I've met some damn hippies who try to tell their kids not to treat animals as dangerous because we're all children of the Earth and so on. LOL

[Humodour]

Will reply to Guard Dog's post later today. He misinterpreted me on a few points, and on others I'd like to discuss.

 

No I won't; I'll spend two days partying in Canberra and reply when I get back if I ever remember. Ciao!

[Sand]

Having said that I've met some damn hippies who try to tell their kids not to treat animals as dangerous because we're all children of the Earth and so on. LOL

 

Every animal has the potential being dangerous, even us humans, no matter if they are in the wild or be supposed "tame" beasts. What they need to do is to teach their kids to treat animals and each other with respect and know that animals largely act on instinct.

[Walsingham]

Having said that I've met some damn hippies who try to tell their kids not to treat animals as dangerous because we're all children of the Earth and so on. LOL

 

Every animal has the potential being dangerous, even us humans, no matter if they are in the wild or be supposed "tame" beasts. What they need to do is to teach their kids to treat animals and each other with respect and know that animals largely act on instinct.

 

Well, yes. Like sexually transmitted viruses. And prophylactics are like puttees.

[Sand]

Remember, Lycanthropy is a STD.

[Walsingham]

Remember, Lycanthropy is a STD.

 

You mean like when your arm is bitten off?

[Gorth]

Sand has a problem with werewolves in general

 

Life itself is a STD with a 100% fatality rate. Information is good.

[Guard Dog]

Will reply to Guard Dog's post later today. He misinterpreted me on a few points, and on others I'd like to discuss.

 

No I won't; I'll spend two days partying in Canberra and reply when I get back if I ever remember. Ciao!

 

Hmmm, argue with me or go partying. Choices don't come much easier than that one! Have fun.

[astr0creep]

What about letting parents do their job?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

What about letting parents do their job?

 

Because some will take the opportunity to spread harmful misinformation and dogma.

[astr0creep]

What about letting parents do their job?

 

Because some will take the opportunity to spread harmful misinformation and dogma.

 

Cultural diversity is a good thing...

[Krookie]

What about letting parents do their job?

 

Because some will take the opportunity to spread harmful misinformation and dogma.

 

And you don't think that some schools won't?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

What about letting parents do their job?

 

Because some will take the opportunity to spread harmful misinformation and dogma.

 

Cultural diversity is a good thing...

 

Not at the expense of the health of children.

 

What about letting parents do their job?

 

Because some will take the opportunity to spread harmful misinformation and dogma.

 

And you don't think that some schools won't?

 

No - but the chance of that happening is less.

 

 

EDIT: I've got to go take my last final - but I'll be back later. If you have TF2 look for the sever I'll be running for a SoDOFF match around 4:00 EST.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Gorgon]

I remember my sex ed classes. It was every bit as hilarious and embarrassing as the 'talk' with my parents. Except they, thank the gods, didn't have a d.ildo on a wooden stand for demonstration.

 

I have a feeling some things haven't changed, and that kids just figure these things out themselves, and make the same mistakes they always have.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Gorgon

[Krookie]

Not at the expense of the health of children.

 

What about letting parents do their job?

 

Because some will take the opportunity to spread harmful misinformation and dogma.

 

And you don't think that some schools won't?

 

No - but the chance of that happening is less.

 

So we shouldn't let parents educate their own children because there is a "chance" that they could be educated with the wrong information?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

The parents can educate the children as well, but the schools should provide a back-up just in case the mothers and fathers of America **** things up.

[Krookie]

The parents can educate the children as well, but the schools should provide a back-up just in case the mothers and fathers of America **** things up.

 

And what do you consider "****ing things up" exactly? Sex education is different in many cultures.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Krookie