Exercise

[taks]

my buddy/colleague* and i walked through the ravine behind his house today (with streak, his overly-excited dog). it took about 45 minutes and man it was hot. a blistering 71 today and the sun was shining bright. of course, 71 at 7000 feet with little wind and no clouds while walking up and down hills does qualify as hot. we got about 2/3 of the way and he stopped me and said "wait, be quiet, it was right here where we saw the bear last time, he was hiding behind that tree right there." i promptly informed streak that it was time to get a movin and let my buddy know that in no uncertain terms was i interested in "re-finding" the bear.

 

it felt good, btw. i was a bit winded but not too bad. the last hill was probably 100 feet straight up and that's really the only place i struggled. the dog was pulling me so i had no choice but to hump it. we intend to do this daily now, apparently. next time i'll wear something other than top-siders. i'll bring bear repellent, too.

 

taks

 

* my buddy and i have worked together for almost 4 years, so he's also a colleague.

Edited May 6, 2008 by taks

[Walsingham]

Neat story. I remember one occasion in the Drakensberg mountains with a friend. We were just coming off the berg (high iron content rocks, no cover) into the foothills (less iron, still no cover) when a thunder storm blew up. I love lightning, and we were both admiring it when we realised we were standing on an open hill wearing metal frame rucksacks. We ran a mile bloody fast off those hills with full packs!

[Matthew Rorie]

Haven't read through all these threads, but has anyone tried Simplefit.org? I've recently started them (although my move has left me without a chin-up bar) and they seem to be good exercises when you don't have a full gym available to you, as they work with simple reps of pullups/pushups/squats. They don't do much for cardio, though, so I guess I need to find a way to replace that. I used to hit the exercise bikes at the gym nearby, but again, I just moved and don't have those available. Maybe lengthy jumping-jack sessions? I'm not a big fan of joggin/running, so that's out.

You could do an aerobic set up. I used to do sets of push ups/air squats/sit ups - 50/40/30/20/10. One right after another until I was done. Trust me, you're heart should be pounding, plus if you keep at it the squats will give you good lung power.

 

Which numbers correspond with what, though? Like 50 of each exercise, then 40 of each exercise, etc? I doubt I could do anything near 50 push-ups in a row...

[Walsingham]

Haven't read through all these threads, but has anyone tried Simplefit.org? I've recently started them (although my move has left me without a chin-up bar) and they seem to be good exercises when you don't have a full gym available to you, as they work with simple reps of pullups/pushups/squats. They don't do much for cardio, though, so I guess I need to find a way to replace that. I used to hit the exercise bikes at the gym nearby, but again, I just moved and don't have those available. Maybe lengthy jumping-jack sessions? I'm not a big fan of joggin/running, so that's out.

You could do an aerobic set up. I used to do sets of push ups/air squats/sit ups - 50/40/30/20/10. One right after another until I was done. Trust me, you're heart should be pounding, plus if you keep at it the squats will give you good lung power.

 

Which numbers correspond with what, though? Like 50 of each exercise, then 40 of each exercise, etc? I doubt I could do anything near 50 push-ups in a row...

 

Aye. I can barely do 30 in a single rep.

[Gromnir]

honestly, am not sure how much aerobic benefit you could get from doing multiple sets o' push-ups, sit-ups, etc. anything less than 'bout 20 minutes to a half hour o' cardio is a waste. furthermore, if matthew is straining to squeeze out 50 push-ups, then there is little chance that he is actually gonna be in the kinda target range for cardio to be useful... if he is straining, then chances are he ain't gonna be doing cardio. general rule: if you cannot speak while doing an exercise 'cause of strain/lack o' breath, then you is no longer doing cardio.

 

conversely, Gromnir can do sit-ups from now til armageddon, and we ain't never gonna get our heart rate up enough for aerobic. sure, at some point we is gonna feel as if our stomach is gonna implode, but actual aerobic? once you get heart rate up, then maybe doing the sit ups may be enough to keep up, but am still suspicious... may give it a try as an experiment, though we would have to seriously increase numbers to get any benefit.

 

on a bad day Gromnir can do 85 push ups. good day we gets 100+. the thing is, our second set is gonna be in the 65 range, and third will be lucky if we hit 45. am just not seeing how we manages to get 'nuff minutes of cardio out of this to be useful.

 

another option: any building with at least 4 or 5 floors is probably good 'nuff to get some cardio going without jogging. walk quickly up 4-5 flights, and then run down to bottom. is not jogging. is still a quasi-running thing.

 

most folks screw up cardio. they either is working too hard or not hard enough. heart rate too high and you is no longer burning fat. heart rate too low and you might as well sit on your arse and watch tv as your daily exercise for all the good you is doing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Walsingham]

If you're not seriously into fitness don't stress any of this. Just concentrate on getting your heart rate elevated regularly. Work some sort of exercise into your routine is the hard part.

 

As for the old 20 minutes aerobic... welll as far as our PTIs are concerned (and they're bloody professional as well as being animals) it's not necessarily true. Not that we ever do less than 20 minutes exercise, but any exercise at all is good for you. It's just that slightly prolonged stints reap the greatest benefit. And when you get down to it, you'll be no more sweaty and inconvenienced after 20 than after 5, so why not do 20?

[Gromnir]

go to any gym where guys is doing serious weight training. you will see many fat guys who works out 5 times a week doing heavy weight exercise for 1-2 hours. those fat guys is probably burning more calories in their workouts than is the skinny little chicks on the stair climbers, and we guarantee that their heart rates is getting higher. doing bench press or squats gets heart rate up higher than virtual any cardio exercise... how can those guys be fat? string together all their 2 minute sets from an 1.5 hour workout and you get at least 20 minutes of cardio, right? so why they looks like big dough boys?

 

well, diet is part of the problem. you can do cardio from now til doomsday and your diet can defeat your efforts, but the other problem is the kinda cardio you does. get into target heart rate range for some considerable 'mount o' time... otherwise you ain't doing much good. simple personal experience should prove this out to you if you has spent any time at all at a gym. sure, you can use net to find all kinds o' articles that reinforce the notion, but use your own powers o' observation will probably be more convincing. 5 minutes of cardio at non-target rate? is a waste.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps

 

always stretch AFTER prolonged exercise/workout. is far more important to stretch after than before. simply start off slow to warm up major muscle groups if you not wanna stretch first too.

 

so from pragmatic pov... you does some warm up cardio for a few minutes, and then does stretching for 10 minutes after... then throw five minutes o' genuine target range cardio in-between? not only is useless, but is impractical too.

 

regardless, if you takes anything useful from this thread it should be that stretching AFTER workout is major important. almost nobody does, but any reputable trainer or sports med dr. will tell you just how important post work-out stretching is.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Gromnir

[taks]

raining today, no walk.

 

taks

[Walsingham]

I'm not talking about turning you into a marathon des sables runner. I know from personal experience how hard it is to get into exercise, and the notion that the ONLY way to get fit is to blister yourself does more harm than good. Once people get into fitness it becomes second nature to push into the correct cardio range.

[Gromnir]

"and the notion that the ONLY way to get fit is to blister yourself does more harm than good."

 

please review thread.

 

 

"most folks screw up cardio. they either is working too hard or not hard enough. heart rate too high and you is no longer burning fat. heart rate too low and you might as well sit on your arse and watch tv as your daily exercise for all the good you is doing."

 

specific noted that working too hard is useless. you is wasting breath preaching to the choir.

 

even so, your body likes fat. your body goes through much effort creating fat. given the opportunity to burn fat or something else, and your body is always gonna choose fat last. is one reason why 5 minutes o' activity is almost useless.

 

is not 'bout blistering self... not at all. blister self is worse than doing nothing. can injure self in process. can make self so sore that further exercise is difficult or even impossible. and again, if heart rate is too high, then all you is doing is placing undue stress on heart w/o any fat burning taking place. even so, the person who does 4x5 minute cardio sessions a day is gonna be real disappointed by resulting cardio benefits... 'cause there is virtually none. maybe makes self feel better 'bout self (and that is indeed important,) and maybe it works like a gateway drug... but for exercise. but from a cardio standpoint? fidgeting while watching an hour-long tv is probably better for you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[taks]

fidgeting while watching an hour-long tv is probably better for you.

then there is hope for me, a major fidgeter. my wife gets annoyed when i'm flicking my toes or bouncing my legs while sitting upright. i'll tell my doc gromnir recommended the fidget exercise plan (uh, joking, really)!

 

taks

[Slowtrain]

From what I have understood over the years, exercising within your "fat burning zone" does burn a higher percentage of fat calories, but raising your workout level to a higher intensity, though makign sure to remain still within your training zone, will burn a lower percentage of fat calories but more total calories including more fat calories (as an absolute number).

 

As a result I am not a big believer in the concept of the fat burning zone, except as a way to get people who might not like to exercise as much to do so anyway.

 

I enjoy exercise and enjoy pushing my body so I tend to exercise at the higher end of my training zone for long periods of time. This does not mean I am burning less fat than a person working out at a lower level fopr less time.

[taks]

i wonder if 12 oz. curls count as part of the fat zone, training zone or "adding fat" zone?

 

taks

[Tale]

I miss my bike.

 

I like to run. But I also like to hurt myself. These things are often at odds and I haven't been able to run for a few weeks because I think I might have pulled something.

[Gromnir]

fidgeting while watching an hour-long tv is probably better for you.

then there is hope for me, a major fidgeter. my wife gets annoyed when i'm flicking my toes or bouncing my legs while sitting upright. i'll tell my doc gromnir recommended the fidget exercise plan (uh, joking, really)!

 

taks

 

is some mayo clinic study that suggests that fidgety people burns something likes 300 more calories daily than does more sedentary folks. go figure.

 

in any event, the one constant regarding exercise is that everybody is different. sure, there is some general rules that is pretty useful, but we all knows the "guy who can eat as much as he wants to," and other such freaks. heck, for decades Gromnir were always asked what kinda "supplements" we were taking to get such massive arms. no matter how many times we informed folks that we weren't so stoopid as to use such stuff, people never believed us. conversely, Gromnir's legs never get thick, but legs is actually our strongest muscle group. am freaky broad shouldered, but our shoulders is relative weak, in spite o' extra effort we put into training shoulder groups. arms? we hardly does arms 'cause we figures they get enough work during our chest and shoulder days, nevertheless, we gots ridiculous size arms.

 

typically, fat people has a harder time losing weight than skinny people. in fact, if you has Ever been fat, chances are you will always have difficulty losing weight. people who has been fat typically is more carb sensitive... but we can find exceptions to the rule. so much is gonna be different for each individual.

 

regardless, we has been 'round too many folks who gets frustrated with exercise not to learn a few things. "Why am I not losing weight?" is terribly disheartening for these folks. 2 most common errors we seen:

 

1) bad diet

 

2) bad cardio

 

exercise 2 hours daily not mean that you gets to eat whatever you wish. again, fat people and former fatty people is often so carb sensitive that they can simply look at a serving of white rice and they gains 5 pounds. not fair? maybe not, but that is just the way it is. have seen folks cut food intake down to 1800 calories a day while doing 1 hour cardio 6 times a week, and 1 hour weights 5 times a week, and they still not lose hardly any weight simply 'cause o' the kinda food they eat. these folks is starving themselves (literally) and they gets hardly any positive results.

 

as for cardio... well, we already identified the common errors. workout too hard or not hard enough. the kinda optimum cardio target window for most people is actually relative small. heart rate too high and you is wasting energy and even countering some o' the benefits o' exercise. heart rate too low and you is doing little more benefit than the couch tatter who fidgets. it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the more you exercise and the harder you exercise, the more weight you will lose, and the better your conditioning will become... but that ain't the reality

[taks]

is some mayo clinic study that suggests that fidgety people burns something likes 300 more calories daily than does more sedentary folks. go figure.

yeah, i've heard that.

 

taks

[Slowtrain]

I was reading an article that was quoting some studies that show that the amount of nutrients in foods such as potatoes and broccolli and oranges has diminished dramtically in recent years, possible due to all the selective farming that is done for appearance and transportability etc. I think one of the studies said that you had to eat 8 times as many oranges now to get the same nutrition as compared to some years ago. Maybe people are eating more these days simply to get the nutitrion the body needs.

[Slowtrain]

it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the more you exercise and the harder you exercise, the more weight you will lose, and the better your conditioning will become... but that ain't the reality

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

okie dokie. some of this should be obvious, but clearly isn't. work out real hard puts stress on heart and entire cardio/respiratory system... and most other systems as well. is not particularly healthy to get blood pressure up beyond certain thresholds. is just one reason why an inexplicably large number o' pro athletes seem to die at relative young ages. if you ain't in the target cardio range, then you simply ain't getting enough oxygen. sure, you may enjoy the "runner's high," but it ain't necessarily healthy to starve cells of oxygen. proper breathing in high stress exercises is essential, but you work out beyond cardio target range and you is voluntarily pushing self beyond the point where you can, by definition, breathe properly. go sniff glue if you wanna get same high. you is less likely to sprain something while sniffing glue... which brings us to point 2...

 

also, the harder you work out, and the more fatigued you become, the more likely you is to injure self. this is a particular problem for runners, tennis players, and those involved in contact sports (given the incredible forces involved and the direct kinda impact on fragile joints that occurs,) as well as weight training. (side note: weight training is evil. if you don't do it, then don't do it. fully 80% of people we sees working out in gyms is doing stuff wrong. you may not realize that you is damaging yourself today, but your mistakes will bear evil fruits in the future.) correct form is important. most folks not have correct form, but typically forms become worse as you become fatigued.

 

play rugby or football or tennis or run distance or whatever... chances are you get to an oxygen starvation point. well-trained athletes (healthier people) can function longer w/o actually reaching oxygen starvation, and they can function better while oxygen starved... but the actual times in which they is oxygen starved is NOT healthy. does all sorts of bad things to health. Am not seeing how this could be confusing.

 

all the benefits from exercise occur Before you get to the oxygen starvation point or range. the further you get beyond (up or down) from cardio target range, the less good you is doing. sure, maybe it builds character to run til you puke, or maybe it toughens you up or some such, but is really not helping you from a health standpoint. heck, in the past couple decades insofar as olympic sports trainings is concerned, you has seen a complete shift away from old philosophy o' going til you drop... and then going just a bit further. is ultimately retarding. is necessary for pro athletes and even recreational athletes 'cause they gotta be able to function when oxygen starved, but it not mean that being oxygen starved is healthy. as soon as you get beyond target cardio range, you is becoming increasingly oxygen starved.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

*sigh*

 

okie dokie. some of this should be obvious, but clearly isn't. work out real hard puts stress on heart and entire cardio/respiratory system... and most other systems as well. is not particularly healthy to get blood pressure up beyond certain thresholds. is just one reason why an inexplicably large number o' pro athletes seem to die at relative young ages. if you ain't in the target cardio range, then you simply ain't getting enough oxygen. sure, you may enjoy the "runner's high," but it ain't necessarily healthy to starve cells of oxygen. proper breathing in high stress exercises is essential, but you work out beyond cardio target range and you is voluntarily pushing self beyond the point where you can, by definition, breathe properly. go sniff glue if you wanna get same high. you is less likely to sprain something while sniffing glue... which brings us to point 2...

 

also, the harder you work out, and the more fatigued you become, the more likely you is to injure self. this is a particular problem for runners, tennis players, and those involved in contact sports (given the incredible forces involved and the direct kinda impact on fragile joints that occurs,) as well as weight training. (side note: weight training is evil. if you don't do it, then don't do it. fully 80% of people we sees working out in gyms is doing stuff wrong. you may not realize that you is damaging yourself today, but your mistakes will bear evil fruits in the future.) correct form is important. most folks not have correct form, but typically forms become worse as you become fatigued.

 

play rugby or football or tennis or run distance or whatever... chances are you get to an oxygen starvation point. well-trained athletes (healthier people) can function longer w/o actually reaching oxygen starvation, and they can function better while oxygen starved... but the actual times in which they is oxygen starved is NOT healthy. does all sorts of bad things to health. Am not seeing how this could be confusing.

 

all the benefits from exercise occur Before you get to the oxygen starvation point or range. the further you get beyond (up or down) from cardio target range, the less good you is doing. sure, maybe it builds character to run til you puke, or maybe it toughens you up or some such, but is really not helping you from a health standpoint. heck, in the past couple decades insofar as olympic sports trainings is concerned, you has seen a complete shift away from old philosophy o' going til you drop... and then going just a bit further. is ultimately retarding. is necessary for pro athletes and even recreational athletes 'cause they gotta be able to function when oxygen starved, but it not mean that being oxygen starved is healthy. as soon as you get beyond target cardio range, you is becoming increasingly oxygen starved.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yes, I agree with all that. If you are exercising outside your training zone you can definitely casue problems. But the so called "fat-burning zone" is in the lower range of a persons training zone. I can't recall the exatc numbers at the moment, but iirc the fat-burning range is roughly the low end of your training zone. My training zone is 126-162 bpm. If I want to get the most efficieny for energy expened to fat calories burned I am best off exercising at around 126 bpm. In this area I will be burning the highest percentage of fat calories. As I raise my intensity level and move up toward the higher end of my training zone, my percentage of fat calories burned begins to drop as the the body calls on other fuel stores. Howvere, as the intensity rises more total calories are burned, including a greater absolute number of fat calories.

 

I think now that you are referring to operating outside yoru training zone all together (which for me would be > 162bpm) and yes I agree that is a really bad idea.

[Enoch]

So does all this mean that I can be forgiven for dogging it a bit when I was playing basketball with some co-workers for about 90 minutes earlier this evening?

Edited May 8, 2008 by Enoch

[Humodour]

Maybe! 90 minutes of Basketball would certainly tire me out and I am used to running for much longer. Remember basketball exercises the whole body, not just cardio, though.

 

Gromnir is basically correct but overstating things. Most studies I've reviewed suggest that the benefits of exercise only taper or have prohibitive risk of injury and such at very high cardio levels. We're talking more things like more than 90 minutes of very intensive cardio.

 

The point is to stay always stay just slightly above your comfort zone and not to push yourself too far at first.

 

So if you're used to 2 hours of non-stop jogging then it isn't going to be a problem, but for somebody not used to it, they may well be doing themselves more harm than good. They should instead build up to it through lighter and less intensive exercises.

 

But it is important to remember in exercising that most of the benefits tend to be garnered when your muscular and vascular systems are stressed; staying within your comfort zone doesn't really do this.

Edited May 8, 2008 by Krezack

[Walsingham]

I'm not really interested in fat burning. As far as I'm concerned the fat is going to do pretty much what it likes - and science seems to back me up on that. I eat and exercise to feel healthy, not to fit some abstruse notion of how I should look. Which is possibly the second biggest improvement the Army has had on me. I simply don't care what some judgemental **** says about me based on what waist size I am.

 

Leaving that aside, I'm a fan of constant activity. The Army has a phrase for this - a 'sense of urgency' - and it means you do stuff fast and move quickly about. It tires you out, and at the end of a day, even without phys, you're often aching. For comparison, consider those third world chappies. They are fit as bastards, as the Ghurkas can attest, and they don't go doing HIIT in a poxy gym!

[Humodour]

Haha, well said Wals!

[Guest The Architect]

I'm not really interested in fat burning. As far as I'm concerned the fat is going to do pretty much what it likes - and science seems to back me up on that. I eat and exercise to feel healthy, not to fit some abstruse notion of how I should look. Which is possibly the second biggest improvement the Army has had on me. I simply don't care what some judgemental **** says about me based on what waist size I am.

 

Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.