Religion and the ESRB...

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I'm having trouble understand what you mean by a game denying anti-holocaust.

 

Sorry, it should have been anti-holocaust-denier. And I meant that you, or, at least, the majority of people, would not want games, or their advertisements, rated according to that belief - much as I do not want games or game advertisements rated for "sacrilege."

[Tale]

I'm having trouble understand what you mean by a game denying anti-holocaust.

 

Sorry, it should have been anti-holocaust-denier. And I meant that you, or, at least, the majority of people, would not want games, or their advertisements, rated according to that belief - much as I do not want games or game advertisements rated for "sacrilege."

Then don't visit a holocaust denial website to read their game reviews. That website wasn't linked for its game reviews. The ESRB weren't even endorsing that website.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Pidesco]

Does ESRB rate games "D" for "demonic," or something? If not, I don't see your point.

 

Edit: on the Xenosaga review, I thought this was funny: "A scene at the end shows two characters cuddling; it’s unclear whether or not they are married throughout the game."

 

 

11th commandment: You shall not cuddle outside of the holy bonds of matrimony.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Pidesco

[Tale]

A major point in contesting the supposed conservative slant of the ESRB:

The IDSA, which runs the ESRB, has as members id Software and Midway. The companies behind DOOM and Mortal Kombat.

 

Obviously John Carmack has gone fundie.

 

Lucasarts, the company that owns the rights to the TSL game that was rated T for a small animated pool of blood, is also a member of the ISA. So, apparently Lucasarts is too conservative about its own games.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Deadly_Nightshade]

They have erroneous beliefs because they believe in God, and that the son of God died and was reborn about 2000 years ago? Do you have any proof that they are wrong?

 

There is proof that their only source of evidence is severely flawed...

 

That website wasn't linked for its game reviews.

Then what was it liked for? It's opinion pieces about how games affect people's spirituality?

[Pidesco]

The ways in which it can advise conservative Christian parents on which games to buy for their children. What's wrong with that?

Edited November 26, 2007 by Pidesco

[Deadly_Nightshade]

A major point in contesting the supposed conservative slant of the ESRB:

The IDSA, which runs the ESRB, has as members id Software and Midway. The companies behind DOOM and Mortal Kombat.

 

An organization can have members who are liberal and still be conservative...

The members do not directly affect the ratings, the people who rate the games do that...

 

Who decides which rating a game should get?

 

Each ESRB rating is based on the consensus of at least three specially trained raters who view content based on numerous criteria. Raters must be adults, and typically have experience with children through prior work experience, education or by being parents or caregivers themselves. They rate games on a full-time basis, although they may be assisted by part-time raters when necessary. While they are not required to have advanced skills as computer and video game players (since their job is to review content and determine its age-appropriateness, not to assess how challenging or entertaining a particular game is to play), they do gain or further develop these abilities since they are also required, time-permitting, to play the final version of games (after their release) when they are not busy assigning ratings. To eliminate the risk of outside or industry influence, the identities of ESRB raters are kept confidential, and they are not permitted to have any ties to or connections with any individuals or entities in the computer/video game industry.

 

...that was rated T for a small animated pool of blood...

 

Did I say that? No, I did not. I only said that I believe the game should not have had the "blood" warning on the back.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

The ways in which it can advise conservative Christian parents on which games to buy for their children. What's wrong with that?

 

Then list it under religious guides, or guides for religious parents, and not with everything else as if they were equal...

[Tale]

Yeah, Christians should have to sit at the back of the bus!

 

An organization can have members who are liberal and still be conservative...

The members do not directly affect the ratings, the people who rate the games do that...

 

But the members have to support those ratings for the ratings to have any value.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Yeah, Christians should have to sit at the back of the bus!

 

No, everyone should have an equal chance, but not if they are going to spout off about their religion, or its laws, during the review and rate the game accordingly. The same thing goes for philosophical beliefs, so, for example, a Taoist should keep the teachings of the Tao De Ching out of his, or her, review.

[Tale]

Yeah, Christians should have to sit at the back of the bus!

 

No, everyone should have an equal chance, but not if they are going to spout off about their religion, or its laws, during the review and rate the game accordingly. The same thing goes for philosophical beliefs, so, for example, a Taoist should keep the teachings of the Tao De Ching out of his, or her, review.

I defy you to justify why someone on a religious website should avoid the topic of religion in their opinions.

 

Again, that site isn't linked for its reviews. Despite what you believe. They have a whole other section for review sites, that's not it. But, that's all pointless because THEY'RE NOT ENDORSING THE SITE.

 

Cut to the chase, what's the big thing that's offending you here?

1) That a religious guy on a religious website cites his religion in his opinions?

2) That ESRB is endorsing this site? (They're not)

3) That the ESRB is endorsing his reviews? (They're not, the site isn't even listed under sites that offer reviews)

4) That the ESRB acknowledges religious people exist and links a website that may be relevant to their interests.

5) That the ESRB links to a website that attempts to help parents understand media, the effect it has, and how to handle this in concert with the desired values they have for their children, even though the values of the writer are in contrast with your own and they don't endorse the website.

 

Sum it up in one sentence.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I defy you to justify why someone on a religious website should avoid the topic of religion in their opinions.

 

If you are linking recourses that are "websites that provide information about "family friendly" video games" you should not link to a website that is rating things based of their "Christian friendliness." That is deceiving for parents who are simply looking at things that might be good for their child and do not care about whether a game breaks biblical law.

[Tale]

I defy you to justify why someone on a religious website should avoid the topic of religion in their opinions.

 

If you are linking recourses that are "websites that provide information about "family friendly" video games" you should not link to a website that is rating things based of their "Christian friendliness." That is deceiving for parents who are simply looking at things that might be good for their child and do not care about whether a game breaks biblical law.

There's no deception there. You're calling it deception when it's not remotely deceptive. Family friendly, in the US, often has a religious context. For some, for enough that it is fair that a link representative of those interests is present.

 

Just because the position of the website contrasts with your own does not mean anyone is being deceptive. It just means you're being ignorant.

 

This is what the site is linked for. Family friendly information on how to communicate with your children.

How do you talk to your kids? Do you find yourself constantly correcting and instructing? Pick up your clothes. Put that away! Don't do that! Do this! Don't wear that! Sit up straight! Lean over your plate! Turn that off! Quit listening to that! Please be quiet! Etc., etc.!

 

Do you find that the more you instruct, the more they pull away from you? Why? You only want the best for them! Besides, if you don't constantly correct and instruct, they're libel to mess up, right? Will they?

 

Let's put it in a different context. How about if your spouse constantly "instructed and corrected" you in the way you talk to your children. What would be your response? "Quit nagging!"

 

Did you ever notice that when we correct others, it's for their own good. But when we are corrected, it's nagging? Maybe your children see you as a nag. Do you want to be around someone who nags you? Me neither. You may intend positively, but your child sees it as a negative. Maybe that's why your child hides out in his room listening to his music all the time.

 

If you don't "correct' them, how are they going to know what to do and how to behave? I'm not suggesting that you never discipline and instruct your child. But I can offer a suggestion as you do. Counter-balance every negative "instruction" with ten positive reinforcements. This step has proven to be the best way to keep communication open. Think about it, it's usually the other way around. One positive for every ten negatives.

http://www.almenconi.com/articles.php?art_id=95

 

Note that no religion is mentioned. Note the liberal behaviors promoted. Note that he's talking about methods that have scientific and empirical backing.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Then why cannot they have a different section for religious reviews -from various religions-? That would be better then sticking this random site in the mix...

 

Sure, but look at this:

Searching For Spiritual Renewal In Our Nation

 

by Al Menconi

 

(orginally published in 1999)

 

Because of the public response to the recent political scandals, many Christians have been saying that America had lost its soul. The consensus by many leaders seems to be that we need a change in the political leadership so America can once again regain its soul.

 

I disagree! This is not a political issue. It is a spiritual issue. As a secular nation, America can't be expected to have a soul. What can you expect from a sinful nation, except a pattern of sin? The problem isn't with the secular community; it is with the Christian community. The Christian community has been the soul for this nation and I'm afraid that we are losing ground.

 

We, the Christian community, are perceived as losing our soul because there is very little difference between them and us. However you measure that difference: divorce, adultery, cheating, lying, etc., research has shown that there is very little difference between our behavior and the behavior of the secular community.

 

Why? Because we have not paid attention to the exhortation of Romans 12: 1-2 which says, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." It is my contention that one of the main ways we have learned to conform to the values of this world is through the entertainment media.

 

Think about it. Do the things that once offended you now entertain you? Are you able to enjoy the company of television programs, videos, and movies that have values that are diametrically opposed to yours? Do you think you can watch and listen to whatever you want, and still not have it influence you? Let me ask you a few questions.

 

Do you remember the first time you heard someone use profanity in a motion picture? I do. It was just over 20 years ago in the movie "All the President's Men." I was shocked that they could use that [language]. Now we hear worse on television every night.

 

How about the first sex scene you saw in a motion picture. I can recall the first time I saw one. Again it was just more than 20 years ago. Even though it was done "tastefully," my friends and I were so embarrassed that we walked out. Now we see scenes on television that are more graphic and we say it's no big deal.

 

Are you beginning to understand what I am talking about? We have gotten used to the values of this world with the help of the entertainment media. We are literally entertaining ourselves to spiritual death. Our collective soul is dying.

 

What does Scripture say? Be transformed by renewing our minds. Colossians 3: 1-2 commands us to set our minds on things above not on things below. Christian music can certainly playa part in this "transformation," along with consistent prayer, Bible study, fellowship and adherence to Christ's command to be "salt and light." In fact, music is an excellent mind setter.

 

Why not allow His music to help you set your mind on life from a godly perspective? When you do, you just may begin to see your soul become alive again.

 

Spiritual renewal will not come from a ballot box! It can only come when God's people resolve to renew their mind and set it on life from His point of view.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Tale]

Then why cannot they have a different section for religious reviews -from various religions-? That would be better then sticking this random site in the mix...

Because, as I have stated countless times already and you seem to blissfully gloss over, the site is not linked for the religious reviews. But instead the articles on how to communicate with your children your own values.

 

 

 

But, let's step back a second. Let's assume you're right about something. They're being deceptive. So, what? You think they're pushing a pro-christian agenda with this? Do you think they're trying to promote games that will turn children into Christians by deceiving their parents? What possible reason could they have to place as the last link under that section, the position that is generally the least clicked link?

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Then why cannot they have a different section for religious reviews -from various religions-? That would be better then sticking this random site in the mix...

Because, as I have stated countless times already and you seem to blissfully gloss over, the site is not linked for the religious reviews.

 

You say that, but almost every single thing in the site is laced with religion. Thus, even if they did not link to it for the views, the Christin world view is going to contaminate the majority of the the information.

[Tale]

Then why cannot they have a different section for religious reviews -from various religions-? That would be better then sticking this random site in the mix...

Because, as I have stated countless times already and you seem to blissfully gloss over, the site is not linked for the religious reviews.

 

You say that, but almost every single thing in the site is laced with religion. Thus, even if they did not link to it for the views, the Christin world view is going to contaminate the majority of the the information.

So what?

 

Seriously, so what? What's the problem? What's the big deal? What's the dire consequence? Are they going to end up turning all parents into die hard Christians? Or are they going to manipulate the non-Christian's children into being Christians through their subtle manipulation of the non-Christian parents?

 

What is the big problem you think having a single link to a site with a religious slant could possibly cause?

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Musopticon?]

Woah, talk about stubborn here.

 

I wish you luck, Tale.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

What is the big problem you think having a single link to a site with a religious slant could possibly cause?

 

It's the fact that parents might choose not to buy a game because of information linked by the ESRB, something that might, incorrectly, give it more weight in their eyes, due to bad review - one that might a negative review for only religious reasons.

[Hurlshort]

Christianity is a major religion in the US. The whole holocaust-denier argument is ridiculous and insulting to a large portion of people on this planet.

[Tale]

What is the big problem you think having a single link to a site with a religious slant could possibly cause?

 

It's the fact that parents might choose not to buy a game because of information linked by the ESRB, something that might, incorrectly, give it more weight in their eyes, due to bad review - one that might a negative review for only religious reasons.

So, your problem is that someone might choose not to buy a game because they clicked the last link under the family friendly information section and took that to be an endorsement from the ESRB? That they completely ignored all the other links and went straight for that one and took it at face value without examing anything further, without reading the context and content of the scoring? That they didn't care about the other family friendly information websites or the sections that are about demos and reviews and only cared about that one web page for information despite it being not what they're actually looking for? That they went through all the effort of going to the ESRB website for information, but stopped just shy of actually paying attention to what they're clicking on and noticing that the site is overtly christian and espouses christian values? And that these people took this website's information to be of more value than the ESRB's rating itself?

 

So, the problem you have with the ESRB website is that some hypothetical people might be complete idiots.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Tale

[Calax]

They have erroneous beliefs because they believe in God, and that the son of God died and was reborn about 2000 years ago? Do you have any proof that they are wrong?

do you have proof that they are right? Religion falls into that awkward zone that theres nothing to really prove it either way. and by popular belief the christians are wrong because more people believe in islam (I think) Jews are wrong because more people believe in christianity and in islam. you get the idea. I can understand the ESRB going to a right wing organization but to go christian seems wrong.

[SteveThaiBinh]

What is the big problem you think having a single link to a site with a religious slant could possibly cause?

 

It's the fact that parents might choose not to buy a game because of information linked by the ESRB, something that might, incorrectly, give it more weight in their eyes, due to bad review - one that might a negative review for only religious reasons.

So long as the link doesn't pretend to be a full endorsement, and the reviewer doesn't pretend not to have a religious agenda, it's for parents to decide how much weight to give a particular review. We have to trust their judgement.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

So, the problem you have with the ESRB website is that some hypothetical people might be complete idiots.

 

Yes that is one of the issues, because there are idiots who fit your profile.

 

I can understand the ESRB going to a right wing organization but to go christian seems wrong.

 

At this time the right-wing of America is pandering to religious nuts, so they're about the same thing in my opinion...

[Deadly_Nightshade]

So long as the link doesn't pretend to be a full endorsement, and the reviewer doesn't pretend not to have a religious agenda, it's for parents to decide how much weight to give a particular review. We have to trust their judgement.

 

I just cannot see why that particular site has any merit, other then its value to religious Christians, or why it should be linked.