Fable

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Peter Molyneux is a mediocre game designer at best, but through good PR he has managed to crate an image of himself as a gifted "auteur". Lionhead had this disgusting PR woman attend the confrence we held this summer and I swear she did not utter one sentence without mentioning Peter Molyneux.

 

 

Fable is the essential Molyneux game, interesting at first glance but devoid of any real substance. Onc you get past changing haircuts, you're left with doing missions that only consist of escort NPC A to point B or go to point B and kill everything there over and over and over again. Yawn.

 

Molyneux, created a genre... He's been behind good, and bad games. This basically comes down to a subjective decision, what is good and what is bad is purely subjective. I'm one of the first people to say that Fable isn't exactly a great game, especially where RPG's are concerned, it tends to do the exact opposite of what makes an RPG good in my opinion. I can on the otherhand say that I have, for many years enjoied alot of Molyneux's work, it doesn't take a single person to make a game, but the initial vision and project management certainly can be attributed to Molyneux.

 

Populus, Powermonger, Syndicate, Black & White, and The Movies are all quality games which I have played which Molyneux has had a hand in, I've also heard pleanty in regards to Dungeon Keeper, and Magic Carpet, although I have never played them at any great length to make a true opinion, they simply haven't fully appealed to me.

 

Kaftan, what is your greatest achievement in games? I feel confident in saying that you have been nowhere near as successful as Molyneux, critical analysis is always positive, but you seem to have some kind of personal agression towards Molyneux. The games industry is a business, and PR is a part of that business, companies promise all kinds of things and they don't always deliver, even Obsidian are guilty of this.

 

Experience can make us arrogant, don't fall into that trap, especially at such a n00b level.

[Oerwinde]

Kaftan, what is your greatest achievement in games? I feel confident in saying that you have been nowhere near as successful as Molyneux, critical analysis is always positive, but you seem to have some kind of personal agression towards Molyneux.

 

The "lets see you do better" argument is an automatic fail.

[Cantousent]

That wasn't his argument. his argument appears to be, "You haven't done better, so your credibility as an insider is suspect." I don't agree, by the way. It didn't seem to me that Kaftan was throwing his weight around. He was just slamming the game, which is a perfectly legitimate exercise in a gaming forum.

 

On the other hand, kaftan's arguments, as always, are heavy handed. I've taken his disclaimer as true over the years, but his arguments still tend to be more bludgeoning rather than cutting.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Im actually serious with my Fable and Molyneux slamming. Bad game, mediocre designer. Give me 10 million dollars, four years and a team the size of Lionheads and I promise you I could make a great game. Most people in my Uni come up with game designs every day that are much more interesting than anything Ive heard from "Peter Molyneux". Im just ticked off by the fact that someone like Molyneux gets so much praise, while more talented people are left in the cold.

 

 

And Black&White? Mm... let's make an RTS with a built-in Tamagotchi! Yay!

[kirottu]

I still remember how dissapointed I was with Black and White. I was really was expecting to be a God, but instead I got this pet who was pestering me all the time. The whole game felt to me like a glorified tamagotchi.

 

Oh, and Movies became extremely repetive really quick while the basic idea was pretty good.

Edited September 11, 2007 by kirottu

[Tale]

My understanding is that Molyneux isn't even involved in design, anymore. His entire job consists of my sig. Sitting around spouting out nonsense like a senile old man. And by that I mean PR.

 

Which is why I avoid Molyneux bashing. No matter how much I loathe Fable, my understanding of his involvement in the game was spouting insane ideas to developers and the media, with nobody actually making the game listening to him with any intent of going along with it.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Tale

[Morgoth]

"Peter Molyneux" is just another MS brand. They slap it onto the box and hope to envoke pleasent memories like "Populus", or "Dungeon Keeper" to make some gamers at least listen to what Lionhead's up to. The PR team will do the rest then to assure adequate hype, and so forth.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Kaftan, what is your greatest achievement in games? I feel confident in saying that you have been nowhere near as successful as Molyneux, critical analysis is always positive, but you seem to have some kind of personal agression towards Molyneux.

 

The "lets see you do better" argument is an automatic fail.

 

No.

 

It's not a "Lets see you do better" argument.

 

First I asked what Kaftan's achievements were, this is an innocent and honest question. There was no malice in it, it wasn't a trick question, I was merely curious of Kaftans overall "experience" of games development.

 

After which I continued to assert that Peter had achieved more, simple fact from my perspective.

 

Then I continue by saying that Kaftens analysis is well founded, and that its a good thing to do, but his personal vendetta against Peter damages is opinions and makes him appear arrogant, and that's perhaps not a good thing to do considering his current level of involvement in the industry.

[Pidesco]

Im actually serious with my Fable and Molyneux slamming. Bad game, mediocre designer. Give me 10 million dollars, four years and a team the size of Lionheads and I promise you I could make a great game. Most people in my Uni come up with game designs every day that are much more interesting than anything Ive heard from "Peter Molyneux". Im just ticked off by the fact that someone like Molyneux gets so much praise, while more talented people are left in the cold.

 

 

And Black&White? Mm... let's make an RTS with a built-in Tamagotchi! Yay!

 

You know that he was, once upon a time, an innovative designer, don't you?

[Nocte]

Im actually serious with my Fable and Molyneux slamming. Bad game, mediocre designer. Give me 10 million dollars, four years and a team the size of Lionheads and I promise you I could make a great game. Most people in my Uni come up with game designs every day that are much more interesting than anything Ive heard from "Peter Molyneux". Im just ticked off by the fact that someone like Molyneux gets so much praise, while more talented people are left in the cold.

 

 

And Black&White? Mm... let's make an RTS with a built-in Tamagotchi! Yay!

 

You know that he was, once upon a time, an innovative designer, don't you?

And the Infinity Engine was, once upon a time, an innovative and top-of-the-line game engine. ;x

[Tale]

Im actually serious with my Fable and Molyneux slamming. Bad game, mediocre designer. Give me 10 million dollars, four years and a team the size of Lionheads and I promise you I could make a great game. Most people in my Uni come up with game designs every day that are much more interesting than anything Ive heard from "Peter Molyneux". Im just ticked off by the fact that someone like Molyneux gets so much praise, while more talented people are left in the cold.

 

 

And Black&White? Mm... let's make an RTS with a built-in Tamagotchi! Yay!

 

You know that he was, once upon a time, an innovative designer, don't you?

Regression to the mean.

 

*ducks*

[Gfted1]

Im actually serious with my Fable and Molyneux slamming. Bad game, mediocre designer. Give me 10 million dollars, four years and a team the size of Lionheads and I promise you I could make a great game. Most people in my Uni come up with game designs every day that are much more interesting than anything Ive heard from "Peter Molyneux". Im just ticked off by the fact that someone like Molyneux gets so much praise, while more talented people are left in the cold.

 

 

And Black&White? Mm... let's make an RTS with a built-in Tamagotchi! Yay!

 

You know that he was, once upon a time, an innovative designer, don't you?

And the Infinity Engine was, once upon a time, an innovative and top-of-the-line game engine. ;x

 

 

Kaftan had a part in designing the IE or that was just a couterpoint? If the latter, what has he designed? If the former, color me impressed.

[Nocte]

Im actually serious with my Fable and Molyneux slamming. Bad game, mediocre designer. Give me 10 million dollars, four years and a team the size of Lionheads and I promise you I could make a great game. Most people in my Uni come up with game designs every day that are much more interesting than anything Ive heard from "Peter Molyneux". Im just ticked off by the fact that someone like Molyneux gets so much praise, while more talented people are left in the cold.

 

 

And Black&White? Mm... let's make an RTS with a built-in Tamagotchi! Yay!

 

You know that he was, once upon a time, an innovative designer, don't you?

And the Infinity Engine was, once upon a time, an innovative and top-of-the-line game engine. ;x

 

 

Kaftan had a part in designing the IE or that was just a couterpoint? If the latter, what has he designed? If the former, color me impressed.

Kaftan was the man responsible for quenching the developer's hunger for both hookers and blow. ;D

Edited September 11, 2007 by Nocte

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

To my knowledge Kaftan has been involved in diddly squat.

[Tale]

Did nobody catch my regression to the mean comment? Does everyone agree with the concept in this application or did it fly over some heads?

 

I mean, I ducked and nobody threw anything. Absolutely rude.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Tale

[Sand]

Did nobody catch my regression to the mean comment? Does everyone agree with the concept in this application or did it fly over some heads?

 

I mean, I ducked and nobody threw anything. Absolutely rude.

 

*Grabs a random Baldwin and chucks him at Tale*

 

Happy now?

Edited September 11, 2007 by Sand

[Tigranes]

Nightandshape, it's perfectly legitimate to criticise someone when "you can't/haven't done any better". I can criticise Pavarotti's singing even if I can't sing for crap. I can criticise Molyneux even if I am an aspiring game designer (as Kaftan is) that has yet to make a big game or anything. I think only bad feeling will come of pursuing that illogical argument.

 

That said, Kaftan does have an unhealthily large bag of monkeys to throw at the man. Many great ideas are great until they are put on paper; many great ideas on paper are great until they're put in the game; many great ideas in the game are great until people actually play them and tell you, "nah". I can only assume the same would be true of 80% of the ideas your game designer friends come up with every day. That's not a swipe at their capabilities, because the same thing happens with everyone. For Molyneux it's just that he's come to believe to an extent his own hype, and afforded so much creative freedom (even if nobody listens to him now) after his early success, he lost disciplinary control of his own ideas; ideas just started coming everywhere and he'd just go with them without thinking, without trying to rein them in. Obviously, that shows in his B&W/Fable era games, when he still did have a lot of control over how the games were made (I think).

 

Basically Molyneux needed a big rumbling voice that told him, "so how will that work?", "what's the point?" and "just shut up once in a while and think."

 

Heh.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Nightandshape, it's perfectly legitimate to criticise someone when "you can't/haven't done any better". I can criticise Pavarotti's singing even if I can't sing for crap. I can criticise Molyneux even if I am an aspiring game designer (as Kaftan is) that has yet to make a big game or anything. I think only bad feeling will come of pursuing that illogical argument.

 

That said, Kaftan does have an unhealthily large bag of monkeys to throw at the man. Many great ideas are great until they are put on paper; many great ideas on paper are great until they're put in the game; many great ideas in the game are great until people actually play them and tell you, "nah". I can only assume the same would be true of 80% of the ideas your game designer friends come up with every day. That's not a swipe at their capabilities, because the same thing happens with everyone. For Molyneux it's just that he's come to believe to an extent his own hype, and afforded so much creative freedom (even if nobody listens to him now) after his early success, he lost disciplinary control of his own ideas; ideas just started coming everywhere and he'd just go with them without thinking, without trying to rein them in. Obviously, that shows in his B&W/Fable era games, when he still did have a lot of control over how the games were made (I think).

 

Basically Molyneux needed a big rumbling voice that told him, "so how will that work?", "what's the point?" and "just shut up once in a while and think."

 

Heh.

 

I shall say again... I WAS NOT STATING THE WHOLE, "CAN YOU DO BETTER?" ARGUEMENT!

 

Companies usually have drawers full of game ideas, game ideas are not sacred, its actually a matter of the, what sells? Factor.

 

Molyneux, atleast tries to do something somewhat original at times.

[Tigranes]

but his personal vendetta against Peter damages is opinions and makes him appear arrogant, and that's perhaps not a good thing to do considering his current level of involvement in the industry.

 

I read the post that this is part of, but I couldn't really tell how your argument was different. Or is the quoted bit saying that it's not good for him to appear so arrogant when he is trying to grab a future in the industry? In which case, I suppose my comments should be retracted.

 

Anyway, "trying to do something original" isn't really good enough.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

but his personal vendetta against Peter damages is opinions and makes him appear arrogant, and that's perhaps not a good thing to do considering his current level of involvement in the industry.

 

I read the post that this is part of, but I couldn't really tell how your argument was different. Or is the quoted bit saying that it's not good for him to appear so arrogant when he is trying to grab a future in the industry? In which case, I suppose my comments should be retracted.

 

Anyway, "trying to do something original" isn't really good enough.

 

That's exactly what I was saying! Spot on.

 

The problem that folks speak of it a larger problem within the industry, its very difficult to get a publisher, and whatever you think you know about a fantastic original idea you think you have, its probably been knocking around in the industry for a while. It costs money to build a prototype to just try and proove something as fun.

[Sand]

Originality is good if you can do two things. 1) Get it to work right. 2) Not overhype it by making claims what the game can do then not deliver on those claims. Fable succeeds in 1, but fails in 2.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Sand

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Rule 1.

 

Never but into any hype ever, for anything.

[Sand]

True, but Peter did outright lie what you would be able to do in Fable.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

True, but Peter did outright lie what you would be able to do in Fable.

 

NWN2 Horses? All companies do this early on in the dev cycle.

[Sand]

True, but Peter did outright lie what you would be able to do in Fable.

 

NWN2 Horses? All companies do this early on in the dev cycle.

 

Which is why they shouldn't say anything about the game til everything is certain.