Switzerland Threatens to Expel Immigrants

[Azarkon]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070901/D8RCI31O0.html

 

My personal impression is that there is currently a massive nativist movement in Europe and the US in response to the forces of globalization, which obviously isn't just a one-way penetration of other countries by the West, but also applies vice versa. There's practical reasons for this movement, but it's not difficult to see how it could easily transform into something much worse. Already we have people predicting the death of multi-culturalism, which might seem like a good thing until you consider what the alternative would be... A return to mono-culturalism and, thus, the ethnic centrism and ultra-nationalism of the WW eras?

 

Discuss.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Azarkon

[Walsingham]

Interesting issue. I have a friend who runs an immigrant psychiatric aid charity in Switzerland. My opinion from talking to and visiting him is that there are a number of ways in which immigrants become likely to commit crime. He focusses on helping deal with the mental scars many refugees inevitably possess. Other reasons would obviously include impoverishment, and the exclusion in Swiss society of immigrants from certain jobs.

 

However, I've been slightly side-tracked. Immigration to Switzerland has to be among the toughest in the world. Therefore it seems odd to me that they could actually have an immigrant problem per se. They may have immigrants involved in a high percentage of certain crimes like smuggling, vice, and drug dealing because immigrant cultures - especially isolated from mainstream culture - are fertile soil for organised crime. However it would be muddled if we ignored the fact that it is the native Swiss who provide the market for these crimes.

[samm]

you know what? that party has big supporting base in switzerland, about one third of all voters here follow their opinion. in the recent years, beginning as an outsider party, commonly smiled upon, they have become a serious threat. their posters are the first and the most numerous to show up before an eleciton, and mostly represent simply drawn rascist, nationalist or panicmongering subject. they however design them such that they always have an excuse. (like the saying of "black sheep" in the case of the current poster).

justice minister blocher blurs the important boundary between judiciary, legislature and executive (being one of seven executive ministers, called "bundesrat", which is comparable to a president in other countries) without having to fear for punishment. why? because if anyone of his minister-colleagues or representants of other parties says anything against the SVP (swiss people's party), they claim it's a complot against them, call it mobbing, and try (mostly successfully) to gain people's compassion, and thus voters. they say that if he isn't allowed to remain in the "bundesrat", the whole party will leave the government and this will make the country unstable.

it's a bad situation here, and however much i like living here, the current policy gets me considering to move. but where? france? there's that right-wing populist sarkozy in power. italy? berlusconi still has his fingers everywhere, and the whole system is corrupt (even more so than here). germany? no one does much except talking about the new rise of neo-nazi power. austria? not really, the political situation there is comparable to the one here. out of europe? it's worse than here in switzerland everywhere they speak a language i can talk...

 

so all i can hope for is that people recognize where they put themselves into by voting for this party. i hope it will not take a greater catastrophe to make them - us! realize.

 

 

walsingham: the svp (said party) claims that we have the weakest laws against immigration, that we're being flooded by illegal immigrants, that criminal immigrants have an easy life here etc., and the people believe them. they believe them because they hate people with accents. people with more temperament. people that are not swiss. they believe the lies because they want to, and everyone is at least a little bit xenophobic at heart.

Edited September 9, 2007 by samm

[Azarkon]

samm: precisely - where would you move? All of Europe, and perhaps even the world, is mobilizing around these nativist trends, and it makes the future uncertain - and scary.

[julianw]

I highly doubt that US could ever go back to mono-culturalism. A temporary lapse maybe but scientific advances in telecommunications would continue to drive globalization even if the political forces begin to work against it.

[Laozi]

Who will work in their sweatshops making discount watches?

Edited September 9, 2007 by Laozi

[Yuusha]

Oh man.... In Australia, I had to put up with Pauline Hanson's One Nation crap. And now this???

[Gorgon]

We have one of that type of party as well, recent posters in the warmup to the election are all about how fantastic 'danish values' are, read other values are not so fantastic.

 

I never thought I would say it, but at least the damn sweedes can keep the nationalists from getting a stranglehold on the formation of new governments.

[Pop]

We've obviously got a similar movement of sorts in America. To most people, there are african americans, irish americans, italian americans, etc. But there's really no such thing as a "mexican american". There are just mexicans. There's all sorts of talk about fences and right-wing militias along the border. It's a sexy issue, in a way (it doesn't seem to rate high on most people's list of political priorities, curiously) but it doesn't look like there's going to be any kind of reasonable compromise regarding it anytime soon, what with this last "best" reform bill dying in Congress. On the campaign trail, Guliani's talking about "motion detection" technology along the border, Romney's talking about pulling fed funding from those cities that house immigrants, Ron Paul's talking about abolishing natural citizenship, Clinton's voting record seems pro-immigration, though I can't speak to any campaign promises, and Obama "will not support any bill that does not provide [an] earned path to citizenship for the undocumented population." and supports guest worker programs but supported the Secure Fence Act.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Pop

[Musopticon?]

The fence plan sounds somewhat alike what bigwigs in China were thinking a thousand years ago.

 

"Hey, let's build a big-ass wall, if we pile enough stone in front of'em, they can't possibly get thru!"

 

We saw how well that worked.

 

 

There's a decent rise in the nationalist movements in Finland as well. There's always been a strong anti-Russian mentality and the reasons for that used to be fine. The problem rises when children inherit their parents', completely out-of-touch, views on immigration and Eastern relations instead of deciding on their own. As a result, we a have sections in our Western cities where the nationalist mentality is incredibly high, even though they hardly meet foreigners so far from the border. Maybe that's a reason in itself already.

 

We also have a raising issue with the negative mentality against African and Middle-Eastern immigrant and ex-immigrant workers. It's the old crap: nobody would take the jobs(except a pesky humanist, please!) offered to these people in Finland and still people complain, and nobody would take your ugly mug anyway so it's a no surprise a handsome Turkish lad working at a diner cheeks up to the ladies with more success than your nigh-permanently unemployed arse. The thing is, I can't understand the anti-immigrant mentality. Sure, we have soaring unemployment rates, but we also have soaring amounts of people who drop from all education, polytechnic, academic, work support, etc and end up with nothing. If these people actually realised how easily workforce moves in the European network and how much there is need for educated workers outside of Finland, or how much better your changes to get a job are if you start to pursue a profession instead of taking odd jobs, we wouldn't have this problem. Now, instead of the old constant spread of Finns throughout abroad job markets, we have a rising class of NEETS in our country, a force of idiots and lagabouts for nationalist to tap in. And immigrants, who are anything but in fault for, are the first they'll target.

[Kaftan Barlast]

In Sweden, immigrants have nothing to fear as long as they are white of a non-eastern-european origin. Canadians are welcome too

[Walsingham]

samm, I thought that in order to becomea swiss person you had to

 

1. find gainful employment in the country

2. collect 100 signatures from swiss citizens endorsing your application.

3. submit to the bureaucracy

 

I call that quite tough. Either I have that wrong, or the SVP want to introduce some kind of maze with flame traps and wild pigs as a test. Or maybe they will challenge immigrants to get the golden fleece!

[Gfted1]

germany? no one does much except talking about the new rise of neo-nazi power.

 

Could you elaborate on this point. I was under the impression that even thinking about nazi's in Germany will get you an express trip to the jailhouse. Are you saying there is now a rising nazi political party there?

[Rosbjerg]

germany? no one does much except talking about the new rise of neo-nazi power.

 

Could you elaborate on this point. I was under the impression that even thinking about nazi's in Germany will get you an express trip to the jailhouse. Are you saying there is now a rising nazi political party there?

 

I don't know what he's thinking of exactly, but as far as I know, Nazism is totally banned in Germany and any official denail of the holocaust or wearing a Swastika, or something closely resembling, is indeed a straight to jail-you-don't-get-200-dollars-for-passing-start card.

[Sand]

I think we need greater globalization, just as long as the immigration done is legal. There is going to be a point in which the individual nation states like China, the United States, Switzerland, Australia, and so forth will no longer exist. Either politically or economically, or even both, we will become a single entity, a unified Earth.

 

The sooner, the better.

[Walsingham]

I dunno about that. Once political entities get to a certain size they rapidly go down the toilet. The biggest advantages are military.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Globalisation in the Star Trek sense is inevitable, but it will take hundreds of years until the diffrent cultures we have today will absorb enough ideas and elements from eachother to become similar enough to get along. First comes McDonalds, then comes democracy

 

 

 

p.s

 

have the muslemists had an "Age of Reason/Enlightenment" or similar yet? I know the Turks had a little something going on for a while but the rest seem to still be partying like its 1299

[samm]

kaftan: by using a word ending on "-ist", you already imply extremist. so the answer is no, and there never will be, just like the age of enlightenment that passed without a trace on christian fundamentalists.

some random facts: atat

Edited September 10, 2007 by samm

[Walsingham]

samm, I obviusly bow to your superior knowledge on the topic, but I ask again how on Earth that could be regarded as 'soft'!

[samm]

Don't entirely trust my knowledge, as I don't know this first hand, but am reciting what I heard, have read, and seen on TV (probably the most unreliable source in the world) Imo no sane, even slightly informed person could think becoming swiss is easy or immigration laws here are soft - which says much about said party and their followers...

Edited September 11, 2007 by samm

[Morgoth]

My cousin used to work in Switzerland a few years ago, but he told me a had a really tough time. Both work hours and society. No he's selling real estate in Canada is doing actually pretty well.

[Sand]

The sooner we deepsix religious doctrines of the BIG THREE as well as the useless superstitions of gods and devils the sooner we can have our unified Earth. Religion is one of the major reasons for the various schisms of human culture. It always boils down to "my God is better than your God" or "my way of worshiping God is better than your way" or some other trivial nonsense that people are willing to kill over.

[Hurlshort]

The sooner we deepsix religious doctrines of the BIG THREE as well as the useless superstitions of gods and devils the sooner we can have our unified Earth. Religion is one of the major reasons for the various schisms of human culture. It always boils down to "my God is better than your God" or "my way of worshiping God is better than your way" or some other trivial nonsense that people are willing to kill over.

 

Yeah, that'll never happen.

[Morgoth]

"Unified Earth". I hope nobody ever forces be to run around with these Star Trek-like pyjamas.

 

I agree on the religious part, though. The sooner we get rid of it, the better. Only problem: We won't. Thanks to two WWs and other "incidents", the world has become an overall immoral place. Where's immorality, there's Religion not very far away.

[Sand]

Unfortunately. :sad:

Edited September 11, 2007 by Sand