Obsidian dumbs "downer"

[mr insomniac]

That was kinda my point.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Hey, if you guys didn't want to use the critters you put in the game to their fullest ability, which they would logically have, then you should have been good DMs and not put them there in the first place.

Extracting the duergar at the point when I took over as lead would have been even more disruptive than leaving them in. But since they were in, having them use invisibility and enlarge powers would have been overkill. PCs have enough difficulty hitting at that level. They don't need a 50% concealment penalty stacked on top of it -- not within the first hour of gameplay.

[Farbautisonn]

Come on... we can handle it... pack in some rustmonsters too while you're at it !

 

-Farb

[Sand]

Hey, if you guys didn't want to use the critters you put in the game to their fullest ability, which they would logically have, then you should have been good DMs and not put them there in the first place.

Extracting the duergar at the point when I took over as lead would have been even more disruptive than leaving them in. But since they were in, having them use invisibility and enlarge powers would have been overkill. PCs have enough difficulty hitting at that level. They don't need a 50% concealment penalty stacked on top of it -- not within the first hour of gameplay.

I thin you seriously underestimate the capabilities of your player base, Mr. Sawyer. Its almost insulting. In those instances I had Bevil charge in to go into melee, with Amee casting enlarge on the fighter. Now depending on my character I would either go into melee as well, or shoot them at range. Once outside, the duration of the enlarge spell should still be in effect I continue to use Bevil as a meat shield, and with his high AC (for that level at least) and high hit points (relatively speaking) he is good to use against invisible duergar.

 

Once visible Amee would use her 0 level attack spells while my character give support to Bevil, either giving him a healing potion if needed or an additional target for the Duergar. Once at the bridge I would use the NPCs there as the meat shields while my party give support.

 

Its not so difficult, Mr. Sawyer, if you put some thought in your tactics. Not all your player base are dumb nor do we need our hand held. I would have loved to see NWN2 be "Ninja Gaiden Black" hard, but through intelligent AI tactics and not by sheer numbers. I would have not only given the Deurgar the full use of their abilities, but made each one a 1st level Warrior (NPC class) wielding a hand axe or short sword.

 

Duegar found later in the game, the ones that attack you when Elanee comes along, equal to the party level with 1 wizard, 2 fighters, and 1 cleric along with the bladeling. The spellcasters give cover fire while the the fighter types move in. The cleric casting healing spells when needed. Also I would have had all the duergar invisible prior to the Bladeling talking so it would have appeared the bladeling was all alone.

 

Make us earn our experience points and levels.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Sand

[Llyranor]

Amee dies.

[Cantousent]

This whole scenario is just nuts. It's easy to say how a level should be balanced. I agree whole-heartedly regarding monsters using their abilities. That's the extent of my agreement because the rest of it is just posturing.

 

As far as meaningful death... I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but the devs mentioned that you need not take any NPCs after the prologue. If that's the case, then solo the game. Death will suddenly be quite meaningful.

 

In Baldur's Gate, you could solo and make the game much harder, or you could take a party and the game would be quite easy. Take your pick. If you choose to take NPCs because you enjoy the interaction then that should tell you something right away.

[Sand]

Man, that is some harsh criticism there. Normally I am a gushing rabid fanboy of NWN2.

[Pop]

If you choose to take NPCs because you enjoy the interaction then that should tell you something right away.

I always knew I was gay. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Gfted1]

[samm]

If you choose to take NPCs because you enjoy the interaction then that should tell you something right away.

I always knew I was gay. Thanks for pointing that out.

well, I don't think I am (and my girlfriend is of the same opinion ), but I still chose NPC according to sympathy - and interaction can cause that or the contrary, can't it...

Edited May 30, 2007 by samm

[Tale]

If you choose to take NPCs because you enjoy the interaction then that should tell you something right away.

I always knew I was gay. Thanks for pointing that out.

The avatar should have been a dead giveaway.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I thin you seriously underestimate the capabilities of your player base, Mr. Sawyer. Its almost insulting.

The people that post on these boards are not indicative of the average player's experience and abilities.

[Tale]

I thin you seriously underestimate the capabilities of your player base, Mr. Sawyer. Its almost insulting.

The people that post on these boards are not indicative of the average player's experience and abilities.

Isn't that what difficulty sliders are for, though?

[Llyranor]

The difficulty slider in D&D CRPGs suck. I mean, SUCK.

[Pop]

It's much easier and less time-consuming to have the slider affect damage taken and AoE as they do now than to institute different NPC abilities for different points on the slider (and make it feasible for the player to give and take away those abilities on a whim)

 

What I think Sawyer is saying is that the sheer number of duergar with their innate abilities would be too much for a 2nd-level party any way you slice it. The parts where they come in waves would be a slaughter were it not for the townspeople having infinite health.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Isn't that what difficulty sliders are for, though?

Sure. And if you think that the difficulty sliders should have better AI control, I agree. But I'm certainly not underestimating the capabilities of the truly average player. Normal difficulty, especially at the earliest stage of the game, should be very easy-going.

 

I never liked Heart of Fury mode in the IWD games, but I thought the level of tuning control we had for level of difficulty in those games was pretty good. I never got the feeling it was especially good in NWN/2.

[Tale]

Isn't that what difficulty sliders are for, though?

Sure. And if you think that the difficulty sliders should have better AI control, I agree. But I'm certainly not underestimating the capabilities of the truly average player. Normal difficulty, especially at the earliest stage of the game, should be very easy-going.

I... uh... have no disagreement with any of this. Still, I do have a reputation to maintain, so rabble rabble.

[metadigital]

Most of the criticisms in this thread are about personal preference, and they all differ in degrees. Would I like to see a more meaningful death system? On hardcore mode, yes. Would I like to see combat much more difficult? *shrug* I'm not a min-maxer or a munchkin player. In a CRPG I don't much care about the combat personally. To me, it's about the story and the characters. Combat is just a small part of the story, even if it's a major part of the design. I can see where some people would prefer to have combat be more difficult, though. Do I think resting makes the game easy? Yes. I just rest in inns and maybe once in a dungeon.

I agree with what you say, but I would also point out that the same conditions affect the different classes differently.

 

The fighter classes tend to be able to go longer without rest, for example, as their defensive qualities (hit points and Armour Class) are superior, and offensive capabilities are not rest-limited, like a spell-caster.

 

Isn't that what difficulty sliders are for, though?

Sure. And if you think that the difficulty sliders should have better AI control, I agree. But I'm certainly not underestimating the capabilities of the truly average player. Normal difficulty, especially at the earliest stage of the game, should be very easy-going.

I... uh... have no disagreement with any of this. Still, I do have a reputation to maintain, so rabble rabble.

Grimace ... is that you?

[Dark_Raven]

I never liked Heart of Fury mode in the IWD games, but I thought the level of tuning control we had for level of difficulty in those games was pretty good. I never got the feeling it was especially good in NWN/2.

Why? HoF was pretty decent if you wanted to gain godly EXPs but it made you really work for them. Killing kobolds with 100HPs and having your butt handed to you was great.

[Cantousent]

This doesn't mean your NOT gay, Pop, but what I was trying to convey was that the only reason to include NPCs if you don't need them is because they provide entertainment for you. :Cant's sheepish look for not conveying his meaning very well icon:

[Pop]

This doesn't mean your NOT gay, Pop, but what I was trying to convey was that the only reason to include NPCs if you don't need them is because they provide entertainment for you. :Cant's sheepish look for not conveying his meaning very well icon:

That sounds pretty gay. And I should know, I'm a gay man.

[Tigranes]

Sure. And if you think that the difficulty sliders should have better AI control, I agree.

 

So... will we get that anytime soon from Obsidian? I think that's really the crux of the matter. Nobody's going to complain, normal or hardcore, if we get that. I understand how difficult it is, but hey, you can at least have multiple difficulty sliders - i.e. Enemy HP, Enemy Save THrows, Enemy Attack Damage, Enemy Use of Buffs, or something like that. With a massive disclaimer going 'screwing with these in a random manner can result in super-funky game'. Actually, it's still tricky to do, but hey, it's our job to dream and yours to shatter some, realise some.

 

As for rest / save rules, they aren't as much a deal-breaker IMO, because you can use your own house-rules or 'discipline' or whatever. I played NWN2 every time only resting in a dungeon if I had cleared that entire level. I wanted to not rest in dungeons at all, but because NWN2 OC designed massive dungeons ensuring you rested multiple times, it became kinda stupid. And in BG series, I liked permadeaths and challenges; but I really, really hated tracking back to res them early-game, esp. because of the loot. I ended up just using Ctrl+R cheat to res them after a battle, 'dropping' the requisite gold in a nearby container and pretending I Just made the stupid 10-minute trip backa nd forth. It's not a deal-breaker for me here. (Although Sawyer, the one thing I hope they really change; if your surviving members run away from a battle far enough, your 'dead' party members come back to life... I think that's silly, since it happens sometimes even if you aren't exploiting it. My thief is running for his life, trying to find some means by which to kill that thug - exciting and precarious - then wham! The fighter comes back to life, comes up behind and cracks him in the head.)

[Cantousent]

This doesn't mean your NOT gay, Pop, but what I was trying to convey was that the only reason to include NPCs if you don't need them is because they provide entertainment for you. :Cant's sheepish look for not conveying his meaning very well icon:

That sounds pretty gay. And I should know, I'm a gay man.

 

Soooo You like it?

[Pop]

Being that I'm not actually gay, I don't know. But I've been known to play BG2 for the sole purpose of experiencing the dynamics of every combination of party members. If that makes me gay, so be it.

[Cantousent]

First of a--- what? I mean... what? That's exactly what I've been trying to say. If you include NPCs for the fun of interaction, then the game holds more for you than combat in the first place. Do we find ourselves in violent disagreement?