Obsidian dumbs "downer"

[roshan]

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?artic...6840&page=1

 

I just read Feargus' new interview and what Ive read sounds very disappointing. It really seems that Obsidian is targetting the LCD with the games that it is making.

 

Another difference is the focus on combat with Mask being more about fun combats and Torment more about your relationship with your companions.

 

Initially, there was talk about having death be more permanent than it was in NWN2, but there were concerns about what would have to change in gameplay and in the engine and whether that was worth it.

 

"One design decision we made was to overall make the game easy enough for the new player or a non-optimum character to be able to complete it"

 

So we have confirmation that the game will be even more linear than the NWN2 campaign(I didnt even think that was possible until they said it), that characters will still be forced to resurrect after combat, that it will be focused on combat and not characters and that combat is going to be ridiculously easy. So it will be just like the original game - a forced linear march through areas filled with boringly easy combat - except worse. Very disappointing.

 

And of all the bad decisions in the original campaign(forced npcs, forced resurrection, linear marches through areas, linear area progression, lack of interaction with npcs, no freedom of choice), the one Feargus regrets the most is the lighting?

 

That Obsidian was ever involved in rpgs like PST, FO and IWD boggles the mind.

[Slowtrain]

IWD2 had hard (relatively) combat. I suppose it was challenging in its own way, but it was mostly just tedious and dull. "Fun" seems a good thing to aim for, I think. If it is fun why does it matter if it hard or easy?

[Xard]

Cry me a river

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Sometimes its too hard or too easy, which makes the game annoying or boring. Therefore, not fun.

[LadyCrimson]

I dunno, it feels to me like some of the things you quote are a bit misleading without the context of the rest of what is said.

 

ie, after this:

QUOTE

"One design decision we made was to overall make the game easy enough for the new player or a non-optimum character to be able to complete it"

 

comes this:

"But we also are designing some specific combats to be extremely challenging. These are generally fights that have other possible solutions to them. So the hardcore players will find some great combat challenges, but the more casual gamers won't be overwhelmed by the game's difficulty. Overall, our goal is simply to ensure that everyone can have fun with the game."

 

I don't see anything immediately alarming about the article itself, personally.

[Slowtrain]

I don't see a problem then.

[Sand]

Roshan is just being reactionary. Besides, thi is NWN2. If you don't like something about NWN2 get a mod. Right now with that new AI mod I am using the game is very difficult. When you have 10 englarged duergar swaming around your 1st level wizard things can get a little hairy, them being dwarves and all.

[Slowtrain]

[That Obsidian was ever involved in rpgs like PST, FO and IWD boggles the mind.

 

Also, FO's combat was pretty easy. The only thing that was really as threat was a critical hit from a minigun. But it was still a great game regardless.

 

No crpg is going to have combat like an XCOM or a Jagged Alliance 2. That is not the focus of a crpg.

[roshan]

IWD2 had hard (relatively) combat. I suppose it was challenging in its own way, but it was mostly just tedious and dull. "Fun" seems a good thing to aim for, I think. If it is fun why does it matter if it hard or easy?

 

Icewind Dale 2's combat became tedious because there just werent any rewards for going through the trouble. It sucked fighting through a tough battle and then getting 0 XP and yet another bloody returning frost dart. One of my characters was stuck with a normal greatsword until 2/3rds of the way throuh the game and it was just some crappy weapon that ignored armor(or something similar - as if she had trouble hitting the enemies) and then that turned out to be the best weapon in the entire game. Not to mention the story wasnt compelling enough to drive one through the game.

 

Cry me a river

 

Only if you promise to drown yourself in it.

 

I dunno, it feels to me like some of the things you quote are a bit misleading without the context of the rest of what is said.

 

This is just the same hype they created before the original game. I can see through it like a window. They hyped up the dragon battles in the original NWN2 and talked about how it was going to be so tough - yet I won the battles without even knowing what the hell was going on(I played those battles at about 1 FPS struggling with the horrid interface). I remember clicking on Khelgar and then clicking on the giant king and few seconds later I noticed the king was dead. I wasnt even to micromanage Sand and Elanee, I just set them to autocast mode and they killed the dragon without me knowing about it(I was trying to send my main character to attack the dragon but he just stood in the same place like an idiot).

[Cantousent]

This is entirely reactionary on Roshan's part. We should give Mask a chance and, if it really can capture some of the beauty of PS:T, then it will be the best game I've played in years.

 

In terms of the combat, I think it's really all just a wash once you get into epic characters and massive damage spells anyhow. You should probably wait until it's out before you judge el Jefe's comments regarding combat difficulty.

[Slowtrain]

returning frost dart.

 

argh.

 

argharghargh.

 

the pain.

[roshan]

We should give Mask a chance... You should probably wait until it's out before you judge el Jefe's comments regarding combat difficulty.

 

I dont think Obsidian has any credibility. Their hype about epic battles in the original game turned out to be completely false. Not only that, they never informed gamers about gameplay decisions they had made such as forced resurrection. I was basically conned into purchasing NWN2.

[Wistrik]

Balance wouldn't be such an issue if they'd quit making D&D combat simulators with just a dash of role-playing on the side. (I feel that role-playing suffers in the transition from table top to computer screen.)

 

Overall I'm happy with what was expressed, especially the point about being able to adventure alone if I want to. It's about time! (If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.)

[Slowtrain]

"Initially, there was talk about having death be more permanent than it was in NWN2, but there were concerns about what would have to change in gameplay and in the engine and whether that was worth it. So, the focus moved to how to make death still matter to the player.

 

"This turned into an entirely new mechanic that makes time much more critical to the player. Certain areas change as day goes to night and while you can rest in most places, there are going to be other things to consider as you use up that time." Which implies that the days when you just camp every ten feet down a dungeon to stay at full power may be behind us.

 

This sounds pretty OK to me.

 

Character death in a save anywhere single-player crpg is an iffy subject. Simply forcing people to reload 7 billion times to win a hard battle without everyone ending up dead seems dumb to me. I've got better thing to do with my time.

 

Unless you have a game that restricts saves or is only balanced for an "iron-man" mode (which I don't think would be a bad thing), then I've got no problems with looking at different ways of dealing with character death.

[Volourn]

"That Obsidian was ever involved in rpgs like PST, FO and IWD boggles the mind."

 

It's hard to take anyone seriously when it comes to complaining about linearity, role-playing, and focus being on combat not characters and actually start praising IWD.

 

IWD wa a fun game; but it was very much linear, had neglible role-playing (OMG, your dwarf auto wins beer drinking contests, that's DEEP!), and the game was 100% focused on combat, and any story or characters were strictly there to lead the player to combat and prop said combat up.

 

Nope. Can't take Roshan's rant seriously.

[Xard]

FLASH: DnD was never optimum engine for sheer roleplaying. What it does have arguably one of the best combat mechanics in any PnP game (with some housebrewing anyway). What, why do you think "elitistic" roleplayers don't like DnD that much...

 

I'm not saying great roleplaying can't be done with DnD (heck, most of my best rp'ing memories are with it), but what I'm saying it's pretty ridiculous critize crpg's for being so much about combat because that is what PnP is about.

 

No information death system before game was out? Oh please, I knew it was something like in kotors many months before game came out.

 

And of all the bad decisions in the original campaign(forced npcs, forced resurrection, linear marches through areas, linear area progression, lack of interaction with npcs, no freedom of choice), the one Feargus regrets the most is the lighting?

 

Forced companions? Out. Forced resurrection? "in", but we don't know how new system will be like. Linear marches through areas, linear area progression? No proof, but propable. However, if plot kicks ass, I'm willing to forgive. Open-endness is minor factor in what makes game grat for me. Lack of interaction with npcs? What the ****? No freedom of choice? What the ****?

 

Hey, if dealing with lighting helps performance, I'm all for it!

 

You quoted all the stuff about death in very misleading context

 

It also shares with Planescape an interest in the basic elements of role-playing design - that is, character survival and what that really means when you can just reload. "One of the key things that the design team at Obsidian working on Mask of the Betrayer wanted to focus on was how death worked," Feargus explains.

 

"Initially, there was talk about having death be more permanent than it was in NWN2, but there were concerns about what would have to change in gameplay and in the engine and whether that was worth it. So, the focus moved to how to make death still matter to the player.

 

"This turned into an entirely new mechanic that makes time much more critical to the player. Certain areas change as day goes to night and while you can rest in most places, there are going to be other things to consider as you use up that time." Which implies that the days when you just camp every ten feet down a dungeon to stay at full power may be behind us.

 

Since we know nothing about upcoming Death System Revised, bitching about it is stupid.

 

IWD2 had hard (relatively) combat. I suppose it was challenging in its own way, but it was mostly just tedious and dull. "Fun" seems a good thing to aim for, I think. If it is fun why does it matter if it hard or easy?

 

Icewind Dale 2's combat became tedious because there just werent any rewards for going through the trouble. It sucked fighting through a tough battle and then getting 0 XP and yet another bloody returning frost dart. One of my characters was stuck with a normal greatsword until 2/3rds of the way throuh the game and it was just some crappy weapon that ignored armor(or something similar - as if she had trouble hitting the enemies) and then that turned out to be the best weapon in the entire game. Not to mention the story wasnt compelling enough to drive one through the game.

 

And what kind of combat do you want then? Like in IWD? Clearly not. Falloutish? Too bad that it has nothing to do with DnD AND it is goddamn easy too. PS:Tish? DO NOT WANT

 

Cry me a river

 

Only if you promise to drown yourself in it.

 

Sorry, my self-preservation instincts still work.

 

 

I dunno, it feels to me like some of the things you quote are a bit misleading without the context of the rest of what is said.

 

This is just the same hype they created before the original game. I can see through it like a window. They hyped up the dragon battles in the original NWN2 and talked about how it was going to be so tough - yet I won the battles without even knowing what the hell was going on(I played those battles at about 1 FPS struggling with the horrid interface). I remember clicking on Khelgar and then clicking on the giant king and few seconds later I noticed the king was dead. I wasnt even to micromanage Sand and Elanee, I just set them to autocast mode and they killed the dragon without me knowing about it(I was trying to send my main character to attack the dragon but he just stood in the same place like an idiot).

 

Pardon me for not being phat 1337 skillz hardcore player, but I had hard time with one particular red dragon. I basically had no fire resisting enchantments/stuff with any of my characters (well, Qara had robes of Fire Resistance and that was it) plus I was completely unprepared for battle. My melee were lucky if they hit it once before they went down. Mages brought it down eventually (and I believe next time shall be much easier since I know what to expect)

 

Also, you have already settled your mind with the expansion. "This is just the same hype they created before the original game. I can see through it like a window. " Also: "I dont think Obsidian has any credibility."

 

Hype? Sure. All of it being false? NO PROOF.

 

I would be more than interested to know what you WANT from NWN2 expansion. Another PS:T? Even though PS:T is my favorite game, I have to brutally frank: I don't want another PS:T. Especially expansion pack to NWN2 (which is sequel for NWN1, NOT PS:T) should not be it.

 

On combat: Only thing that really matters with it is that it should be fun. NWN2's was occasionally, although it definetly had its shortcomings. It being hard or easy doesn't matter.

 

"An epic level campaign is much more challenging to put together than one for lower levels," Feargus agrees, "Not that a low level campaign doesn't have its own challenges, but you don't have to worry about what kinds of creatures you can send at the player to keep it interesting. In an epic level campaign, you can't just continually send bigger and bigger kobolds at the player with bigger and bigger knives.

 

It just gets boring. So, what the designers have to do is to craft battles and enemies that challenge the abilities of the player's character and the player himself. What this usually means is focusing a fair amount on the spells that enemies can cast and making the player have to react to them."

 

Well, at least we're not encountering HotU. Oh, right. It's hype from Obsidian, therefore IT MUST BE DIRTY LIES!

 

Another part on combat you quoted misleading wasthis You didn't leave out other parts of that talk with purpose, didn't you?

 

Inevitably, this can swiftly become a balancing nightmare. "One design decision we made was to overall make the game easy enough for the new player or a non-optimum character to be able to complete it," Feargus explains a way around the issue, "But we also are designing some specific combats to be extremely challenging. These are generally fights that have other possible solutions to them. So the hardcore players will find some great combat challenges, but the more casual gamers won't be overwhelmed by the game's difficulty. Overall, our goal is simply to ensure that everyone can have fun with the game."

 

Non-optimum characters being able to complete it? Goes under roleplaying category. Maybe my fighter mght be able to put some extra good in INT and WIS instead just for flavor!

 

And rest of quote "gives" what HARDCORE players want.

 

...Oh, right, it's Obsidian's hype!!!111&!1!1!

 

edit: Some tweaking

Edited May 28, 2007 by Xard

[metadigital]

We should give Mask a chance... You should probably wait until it's out before you judge el Jefe's comments regarding combat difficulty.

 

I dont think Obsidian has any credibility. Their hype about epic battles in the original game turned out to be completely false. Not only that, they never informed gamers about gameplay decisions they had made such as forced resurrection. I was basically conned into purchasing NWN2.

After playing NwN2, reading your assessment of it, reading the interview in full, and then reading your comments about it, I make a wildly different assessment.

[Volourn]

"FLASH: DnD was never optimum engine for sheer roleplaying."

 

Error. Error. Error.

[Xard]

"FLASH: DnD was never optimum engine for sheer roleplaying."

 

Error. Error. Error.

 

Nope.

 

Games like Cthulhu PnP are more optimum. I'm not saying you can't create the very best roleplaying with D&D, what I'm saying, is that it's not best "engine" for it

 

Less the dice is used the better.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Xard

[Volourn]

"Less the dice is used the better."

 

Totally disagree unless you are using the 'role-play as acting' definition. Actual role-playing in the context of a game should be much deeper than that. If not, than 3 year old kids are the best role-players of all time as those who like to 'role-play' in the bedroom.

 

The 'dice' are a very important part of role-playing games 'cause otherwise it's just acting.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Volourn

[J.E. Sawyer]

You're reaching kind of bizarre conclusions about things from what Feargus said. I think the companions in MotB are individually more well-developed than the ones in the core game. They are also (excepting a short period at the beginning) all optional. Core combat in the expansion should be a little easier overall, especially at the beginning, because people are being thrown in with epic level characters. There were battles in NWN2 that a lot of people found challenging. Take Tholapsyx, for instance. Constant Gaw tuned that battle for a long time. A lot of players and testers had a hard time with that fight. I beat her in two rounds. It's pretty hard to tune high level fights so they are fun for both the hardcore player and nubz.

 

Icewind Dale 2's combat became tedious because there just werent any rewards for going through the trouble. It sucked fighting through a tough battle and then getting 0 XP and yet another bloody returning frost dart. One of my characters was stuck with a normal greatsword until 2/3rds of the way throuh the game and it was just some crappy weapon that ignored armor(or something similar

I'm pretty sure a magical greatsword was available in Targos and Sherincal drops Winged Blight outside of the Ice Temple. That's just off the top of my head. If people don't consider Winged Blight to be a powerful greatsword, I'm not sure what to say.

[Farbautisonn]

You're reaching kind of bizarre conclusions about things from what Feargus said. I think the companions in MotB are individually more well-developed than the ones in the core game. They are also (excepting a short period at the beginning) all optional. Core combat in the expansion should be a little easier overall, especially at the beginning, because people are being thrown in with epic level characters. There were battles in NWN2 that a lot of people found challenging. Take Tholapsyx, for instance. Constant Gaw tuned that battle for a long time. A lot of players and testers had a hard time with that fight. I beat her in two rounds. It's pretty hard to tune high level fights so they are fun for both the hardcore player and nubz.

 

Icewind Dale 2's combat became tedious because there just werent any rewards for going through the trouble. It sucked fighting through a tough battle and then getting 0 XP and yet another bloody returning frost dart. One of my characters was stuck with a normal greatsword until 2/3rds of the way throuh the game and it was just some crappy weapon that ignored armor(or something similar

I'm pretty sure a magical greatsword was available in Targos and Sherincal drops Winged Blight outside of the Ice Temple. That's just off the top of my head. If people don't consider Winged Blight to be a powerful greatsword, I'm not sure what to say.

 

We want the Holy Hackmaster +8 to be dropped out by the first goblin or rat we kill. Fix it.

 

-Farb

[J.E. Sawyer]

People who discount Cleaver's ability to ignore armor and shield bonuses aren't really thinking about how BAB works in D&D. It's easy to hit with the first and second attacks out of four or five, but the probability of hitting with the subsequent attacks gets pretty slim. You're at -10 on your 3rd attack, -15 on the 4th, etc.

[roshan]

It's hard to take anyone seriously when it comes to complaining about linearity, role-playing, and focus being on combat not characters and actually start praising IWD.

 

IWD wa a fun game; but it was very much linear, had neglible role-playing (OMG, your dwarf auto wins beer drinking contests, that's DEEP!), and the game was 100% focused on combat, and any story or characters were strictly there to lead the player to combat and prop said combat up.

 

Nope. Can't take Roshan's rant seriously.

 

Each of the games I mentioned had something special in it that made the experience memorable. Icewind Dale was poor in terms of roleplaying but it had good combat and atmosphere produced by incredible art, voiceacting and music. Thats what I got out of the game. On the other hand I didnt get anything out of NWN2. The music wasnt anything special, combat was tediously easy, the artistic aspect was quite bad(such as for inventory icons or the interface) and so on. There was a trial in the game that was almost awesome but I couldnt experience most of it due to bugged dialogue, and there was that tedious "fight" with the berserker before it. Some NPCS were great like Sand and Khelgar but then again I was forced to roam around with characters I really disliked such as Shandra and Zhjaeve. In the end of it all the enjoyable aspects of NWN2 were far outweighted by the things I didnt like.

 

FLASH: DnD was never optimum engine for sheer roleplaying. What it does have arguably one of the best combat mechanics in any PnP game (with some housebrewing anyway). What, why do you think "elitistic" roleplayers don't like DnD that much...

 

I'm not saying great roleplaying can't be done with DnD (heck, most of my best rp'ing memories are with it), but what I'm saying it's pretty ridiculous critize crpg's for being so much about combat because that is what PnP is about.

 

No information death system before game was out? Oh please, I knew it was something like in kotors many months before game came out.

 

Im not criticizing NWN2 for being about combat - im criticizing it because its about combat that has been dumbed down. (see title)

 

Forced companions? Out. Forced resurrection? "in", but we don't know how new system will be like. Linear marches through areas, linear area progression? No proof, but propable. However, if plot kicks ass, I'm willing to forgive. Open-endness is minor factor in what makes game grat for me. Lack of interaction with npcs? What the ****? No freedom of choice? What the ****?

 

Hey, if dealing with lighting helps performance, I'm all for it!

 

You quoted all the stuff about death in very misleading context

 

It was stated in a previous interview that the expansion will be more linear than the original game.

 

Since we know nothing about upcoming Death System Revised™, bitching about it is stupid.

 

Actually Feargus' method for making death matter is really just about making time matter which is not the same thing.

 

And what kind of combat do you want then? Like in IWD? Clearly not. Falloutish? Too bad that it has nothing to do with DnD AND it is goddamn easy too. PS:Tish? DO NOT WANT

 

I would enjoy IWD style combat.

 

Sorry, my self-preservation instincts still work.

 

Damn those bloody instincts.

 

Pardon me for not being phat 1337 skillz hardcore player, but I had hard time with one particular red dragon. I basically had no fire resisting enchantments/stuff with any of my characters (well, Qara had robes of Fire Resistance and that was it) plus I was completely unprepared for battle. My melee were lucky if they hit it once before they went down. Mages brought it down eventually (and I believe next time shall be much easier since I know what to expect)

 

Also, you have already settled your mind with the expansion. "This is just the same hype they created before the original game. I can see through it like a window. " Also: "I dont think Obsidian has any credibility."

 

Hype? Sure. All of it being false? NO PROOF.

 

I would be more than interested to know what you WANT from NWN2 expansion. Another PS:T? Even though PS:T is my favorite game, I have to brutally frank: I don't want another PS:T. Especially expansion pack to NWN2 (which is sequel for NWN1, NOT PS:T) should not be it.

 

On combat: Only thing that really matters with it is that it should be fun. NWN2's was occasionally, although it definetly had its shortcomings. It being hard or easy doesn't matter.

 

I dont find combat so easy that it basically wins itself fun at all. I dont even powergame any of my characters except the PC and didnt use item crafting until the end of the game right before quitting.

 

Well, at least we're not encountering HotU. Oh, right. It's hype from Obsidian, therefore IT MUST BE DIRTY LIES!

 

Another part on combat you quoted misleading wasthis You didn't leave out other parts of that talk with purpose, didn't you?

 

Non-optimum characters being able to complete it? Goes under roleplaying category. Maybe my fighter mght be able to put some extra good in INT and WIS instead just for flavor!

 

And rest of quote "gives" what HARDCORE players want.

 

...Oh, right, it's Obsidian's hype!!!111&!1!1!

 

Why in the world should I believe Obsidians hype about its battles when last time it turned out to be false?

[Pop]

I discounted it because I was used to the BG2 school of epic levels, in which all enemies have to be hit with +2 weapons or better. IIRC, the armor bypassing sword was not enchanted otherwise. I figured that when I went up against demons or the like, it wouldn't do me any good at all.