The Lost Tomb of Jesus...

[Iolo]

My feeling is it's not the real tomb of Jesus. Without definitive proof, we'll never be able to say and that's where my opinions lie. There was enough evidence discussed during the special I think that points to it not being Jesus' tomb.

[Sand]

Also, Christians and non-Christians alike don't realize that this is a serious affront to Christianity. If this were true, Christians would have to defy a whole segments of the Bible and their beliefs: Corinthians 15, specifically verses 12-19. Read it and you'll see why. This is fundamental for Christians. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then death has not been defeated, and nobody will rise again. Not to mention the gospel accounts, where it explicitly says Jesus is raised from the dead and goes to heaven.

 

Rising from the dead to go to heaven is simply a make believe story to ease the fears of death. Once you are dead, it is the final curtain call, and only black oblivion awaits. You simply cease to be. I don't hold much "faith" in a document that as been written hundreds of years after the fact then translated, retranslated, and translated again by humans. It just doesn't have a lot of credibility.

[Pidesco]

Credibility has nothing to do with faith.

 

 

Also, I don't see why Jesus, being able to come back from the dead and all that, couldn't just leave the remains behind in the tomb.

[Sand]

If I am going to put my faith into something it has to be something that I can feasibly believe to be possible or comes from a credible source of information. I don't do the whole "blind" faith thing. Went through that route once, got burned, and I am not going to go through that route again.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Sand

[Pidesco]

Faith is blind by definition.

[Sand]

Not always.

[Guard Dog]

I've avoided this topic because I prefer rational discussions and my faith is not something I can easily rationalize. But there are three things that I know to be true after spending the last 33 years thinking this over.

 

1) There is a God

2) I'm not him

3) When you die, you will find out the real truth behind all things (one way or another).

 

I do believe in heaven and hell and I do not know who is bound for which. I am not qualified to make that judgment. Nor is anyone else for that matter. Most churches would tell you that non Christians are bound for hell, but I think there is a heck of a lot more to it than that. Jesus said "no man may come to the father but through me" which to me means "follow my example". Jesus had one core message behind everything he said or did. It was simply "Love one another". I do not think there is anyone here who does not think the world will be a better place if we actually did that. How can the most hateful and corrupted self professed Christian get into heaven if the the agnostic who actually follows that principle cannot?

 

It is a popular thing around here to trot out all of the injustices and atrocities committed by people who are Christians or worse, done in the name of Christianity as a means to indict the faith as a whole. But the truth is, all those things (like the inquisition for example) were done by people for their own reasons. If I were to commit a crime and say I did it in Jesus name, it does not mean I got His endorsement and it does not mean other Christians would do the same.

 

Sometimes I really feel that God is a sympathetic character. How would you feel if generations of people you never spoke to, who did not follow your instructions committed some of the worst crimes in history in your name?

[Sand]

That is a pretty reasonable way to look at it. Personally, when I look at the world in which God created and the various religions that are killing each other in his name I see that God is nothing but a narcisstic a-hole. If he really cared about his good name he would come down from heaven on high and put the smackdown on those who do such abuses in his name.

 

Jesus, on the otherhand, if you take a look at his teachings and not the interpretations of his teachings from church "authorities" he is not so much of an a-hole. I don't see Jesus as God either, but a prophet of God with a goood message that got severely corrupted.

 

Those are my view of it and I try to live my life without any religious bias on my actions.

[Gfted1]

How do all you religous folk feel about the statement in the bible (no, I dont remember which it was) that states that only 144,000 souls will be admitted to heaven when the second coming happens? Seems to me like a pretty short list.

[Xard]

How do all you religous folk feel about the statement in the bible (no, I dont remember which it was) that states that only 144,000 souls will be admitted to heaven when the second coming happens? Seems to me like a pretty short list.

 

proof

[Sand]

proof

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144,000

[Xard]

Thanks Sand *goes to read*

[Diamond]

So, all seats are booked by now, I suppose.

[astr0creep]

proof

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144,000

 

Oh my god. 12 tribes and a song? (sorry I'm thinking out loud about the BSG prophecies)

[Xard]

I guess I'm going to burn in hell, lolz

[Sand]

Its wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, though it does have links and cited sources in the Bible where the number 144,000 originated from. With 6 billion closing in on 7 billion I think that casting off all but 144,000 to hell is a bit malicious on the part of God.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Sand

[Gfted1]

proof

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144,000

 

Gah, how did I forget it was Revelations. Thanks for the link.

 

I guess I'm going to burn in hell, lolz

 

You and me both. Ill be over at the bar if you want to hang out.

 

I know this is OT but Im interested to read how religous people reconcile this in their minds. I mean, Id seriously doubt any of us regular Joe's/Joettes are on that list so whats the reward? If the vast majority of us are destined to hell, why believe?

Edited March 21, 2007 by Gfted1

[kirottu]

That is a pretty reasonable way to look at it. Personally, when I look at the world in which God created and the various religions that are killing each other in his name I see that God is nothing but a narcisstic a-hole. If he really cared about his good name he would come down from heaven on high and put the smackdown on those who do such abuses in his name.

 

You do know what free will is?

[Sand]

Oh, yes, free will problem. Human beings are governed by their experiences and their instincts. Very few people can rise above this and actually show true free will. Does one who has been raised in a strict traditional Christian home follow God of his choice or because he learned to follow God due to his upbringing?

Edited March 21, 2007 by Sand

[Guard Dog]

Oh, yes, free will problem. Human beings are governed by their experiences and their instincts. Very few people can rise above this and actually show true free will. Does one who has been raised in a strict traditional Christian home follow God of his choice or because he learned to follow God due to his upbringing?

 

Hmmmm.... So you say most people cannot rise above their experiences. But when I told you that in another thread you said:

 

Guard Dog, that is just silly. I can easily make decisions contrary on my beliefs and morality if it would benefit others or myself in the long run. Its called being aware of oneself and be in full control of one's behavior. A person is not just the "sum total of all of their experiences, education, preferences, and religion" for if he or she truly is self aware one can rise above their experiences and be independent of them.

 

So which is it???

 

Here is the link http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...15&start=15

 

[Sand]

Some people can't. Some people can. I can. Can you?

[Tale]

I wish I could. It's hard to rise above a previous experience of being the perfect being.

[Sand]

Be less perfect! YOU CAN DO IT!

[Blank]

proof

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144,000

 

Gah, how did I forget it was Revelations. Thanks for the link.

 

I guess I'm going to burn in hell, lolz

 

You and me both. Ill be over at the bar if you want to hang out.

 

I know this is OT but Im interested to read how religous people reconcile this in their minds. I mean, Id seriously doubt any of us regular Joe's/Joettes are on that list so whats the reward? If the vast majority of us are destined to hell, why believe?

Seriously, read the passage in context (Revelation 7). Sometimes I am amazed at the comments you guys make and think are well-informed. If you read the passage you can instantly tell that the 144,000 are not "all saved people" or something like that. There is a distinct difference between this group (12,000 from each tribe of Israel) and the group mentioned after them (who are described as saved in the Christian sense of the word), all clothed in white robes and are innumerable. I know they are distinct because one is numbered 144,000 and the other group is "a great multitude that no one can count".

 

Then looking at Revelation 14, one sees that the group is singled out in heaven by their unique gift of being the only ones able to learn a certain worship song to God. This hardly means they are the only saved ones. I think people hear the word, "sealed" and think that means saved or something.

 

I'll go more in depth because I know none of you will even think of reading the actual Bible chapter. Verse 3 of chapter 7 is an angel (with his own seal) telling the some other angels (who are holding back some nasty forces of nature), "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." So we establish that the 12,000 from each tribe in Israel (which amounts to 144,000) are servants of God. Then John looks at these other guys in verse 9, "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands." How can there be a multitude from every nation if it is only from the 12 tribes of Israel? ANSWER: IT ISN'T THE SAME GROUP, MEANING THERE ARE MORE SAVED PEOPLE THAN THE 144,000. How do we know these people are saved, you ask? Because the elder tells John who they are. How convenient for this conversation, I know... In verse 14-17:

"And he said, 'These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,

"they are before the throne of God

and serve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

Never again will they hunger;

never again will they thirst.

The sun will not beat upon them,

nor any scorching heat.

For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;

he will lead them to springs of living water.

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

 

That sounds saved to me. So we have established that there is an innumerable amount of people other than the 144,000. This is how I "reconcile", Gfted1; I don't have to in the first place.

 

And you and Xard don't have to go to hell. You both have a choice, along with every other human that has ever existed. You sincerely ask Jesus Christ, the sinless Son of God, to be the sacrifice for your sins, and you are saved. I don't see how this is so unknown. I hear people say things like Xard said and they actually mean it, but for some reason they don't realize that God has provided a way out. They have faith in heaven and hell, but not God's mercy.

 

Maybe people just don't understand what sin is. Sin is loosely defined as anything you do that is bad. For example, lying, stealing, coveting, committing adultery, lusting, murdering, fornicating. These are all things described in the Bible as sins. These are not things that normal people should be proud of. I mean, if you are proud of murdering, then most would agree when I say you are either locked up or should be. So if you aren't proud of your sin, there is nothing wrong with repenting, or turning away, from it. But if you repent, that doesn't change the fact that you sinned already.

 

Well, that's where Jesus comes in. He takes the penalty for sin. Oh, I forgot to mention, God punishes sin. Just like there is a judicial system in the US, there is an ultimate Judge, God. The laws are set, and Romans 1 says we have conscience and are without excuse if we never saw it in writing or something definitively definitive. And this punishment is what we need salvation from. So we are saved from the punishment. The judge is giving us his son to take the punishment for us.

 

Srsly guys, I can't understand why you don't all accept this gift from your Creator. Even if it wasn't true, which I assure you it is, what would be wrong with believing it for now and accepting Christ? Srsly, you are not going to splode into thousands of pieces or stop enjoying video games or smthing.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Blank

[Gfted1]

Thanks for the post Blank, very informative.