Revan's redemption

[Wolfmann]

I doubt many masters of the order could've stood against Revan. Take Darth Nihilus in comparison to Revan. Nihilus was a maggot compared to Revan in power. Yet Nihilus could probably himself take on a Master or Two of the Order. Though then it's a question if Nihilus and Revan could be truly compared due to that Nihilus was a wound in the force like the Exile and had a different set of power than Revan. oh well

 

I doubt there was any Master in the Order that could stand against him. Even Revan. Nihilus is an anomaly. He's the Anti-Force, and consumes energy and exists in a physical form in a different spiritual plane. The Exile could only stand against him because of her disconnection...the fact that Nihilus could not influence her grasp of the force. Nihilus could not rob her life force.

 

It should be noted that Kreia did a similar thing to Vrook, Ell, and Vash in the Dantooine ruins...she consumed ALL of their force powers, disabled their connection to it, and killed them because of it.

 

Nihilus would do the same thing, and the stronger and more highly linked the Force user is, the more likely their defeat.

 

 

 

In conclusion: I think the only way for the council to contain Revan was to wipe his mind. Revan was no fool, and I doubt neither the high council on Coruscant nor the Enclave at Dantooine could've held him in one grip for a very long time. We should also remember that Revan was pretty charismatic, even in his role as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

The Jedi Order may have had intention to capture Revan, but the strike team going there, and even the General's over seeing the mission had to know that it was a veiled assassination attempt. If it wasn't, then it was to capture Revan knowing they could not contain him.

 

So what conclusion does that leave?

 

They were probably going to wipe his memory anyway. This is consistent with my previous theory above, that the Jedi Council turned Revan against them, not the other way around.

 

 

Though I must also say: Now we have to ponder over Kreia's words: Did Revan truly fall? Or did he do what was necissary to prepare the republic?

 

He did neither and did both. Revan fell. If you believe it was out of necessity, or as a natural progression of his experiences, especially with Kreia, remains to be seen. Even Kreia reveals there were ulterior motives, but Kreia's own motives are suspect as well.

 

She effectively rejects the force, and believe the Galaxy would be better off without it. Whose not to say she didn't influence Revan, or manipulated him, in to falling for the purposes that appear to be in canon. She effectively manipulated the Exile the same way.

[Diego Varen]

Do you think it was really his choice?

No, it was not.

 

What if Juhani and Jolee were not involved?

He would have probably gone with Bastila.

 

What the Council did to him was:

An act of war.

[Rycal]

Blatant Answer: Safety. How would you contain the Dark Lord of the Sith? (ooh Now I'm morphing into a HK unit )

 

Easy. By not training Revan. What could a Revan without a lightsaber/s and force powers do to the Jedi Council, or any Jedi Knight?

 

I doubt many masters of the order could've stood against Revan.

 

One on one, perhaps not. But if you had Atris, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar, Dorak, Zhar, Vandar and Vash all against Revan at once, there's no way in hell Revan would win. Yes, Revan is powerful, but VERY OVERHYPED!

 

Take Darth Nihilus in comparison to Revan. Nihilus was a maggot compared to Revan in power. Yet Nihilus could probably himself take on a Master or Two of the Order. Though then it's a question if Nihilus and Revan could be truly compared due to that Nihilus was a wound in the force like the Exile and had a different set of power than Revan.

 

 

A master or two? Nihilus wiped out a whole planet of Jedi, including several masters. I will not get into this whole annoying debate again, but to put simply, given Nihilus' void in the force, planet eating, inhuman, no will of his own status, only the Exile, a wound in the force, could beat Nihilus. NO ONE ELSE could. And no, it does not mean that the Exile is more powerful than Revan.

 

Though I must also say: Now we have to ponder over Kreia's words: Did Revan truly fall? Or did he do what was necissary to prepare the republic?

 

Prepare the Republic by attacking them and weakening them? I don't think so. Revan may have started out with 'good intentions', but it is folly to argue that Revan never 'truly' fell.

 

 

I think you um, missed something? Revan was not powerless when he was captured, unarmed perhaps and unconsious, but probably more than a match for one master. Many of the masters probably feared that Revan would escape their grip, as charismatic as he was, and somehow manage to get back as the Dark Lord of the Sith, with or without their help. Ponder also over what Revan could've been able to do to the Order (as vulnerable as it was). And if we know Revan's charachter, he would've probably refrained from confronting the council at the point of his capture. He probably would've waited for a moment where the masters would relax and slip up enough for him to Return to power in some way. (Don't ask me how lol) Revan's a strateigst, he does nothing when there's nothing to be gained for the higher cause. Maybe a leftover way of thinking from his First Master?

 

I agree that Revan hardly could've stood against all the masters, maybe he'd take a few down with him, but in the end the Jedi would've overwhelmed him - though I doubt the whole council was gathered at the point of his capture. But that we know nothing of.

 

Also saying that Nihilus wiped out an entire planet and all that. Sure I admit that Nihilus was powerful. But do note that Nihilus never engaged any master in hand-to-hand combat and therefor the masters never truly got a chance to prove themselves against him, nor did they expect his arrival.

[Darth Mortis]

There are ways to keep an errant Force user confined against their will, one of which is mentioned in TSL. One of the main plot points there is that it is possible for Jedi masters to remove someones connection to the force. If the Jedi really wanted to make sure Revan wasn't a threat and could be contained against his will they could have severed his connection to the force. Sure Revan might be powerful, but even he's not going to be able to do much against a dozen Jedi masters while unarmed and unconcious.

 

Sure, this could be seen as passing judgement without a trial but then so was treating his mind like a corrupted hard drive and erasing his memories, and it is implied that The Jedi can reconnect someone to the force afterwards if they really wanted to. To me this would have been a more humane way of dealing with the problem-sever Revans connection to the force then take things from there.

[Darth Keyan]

1) No it was not his/her choice

 

2) he/she would probably gone with Bastila

 

3) It was a crime

[Guest The Architect]

Umm Wolfmann

Edited February 22, 2007 by The Architect

[Rycal]

I suggest that you read on what I said instead of quoting randomly

[Rycal]

 

A master or two? Nihilus wiped out a whole planet of Jedi, including several masters. I will not get into this whole annoying debate again, but to put simply, given Nihilus' void in the force, planet eating, inhuman, no will of his own status, only the Exile, a wound in the force, could beat Nihilus. NO ONE ELSE could. And no, it does not mean that the Exile is more powerful than Revan.

 

So basically you're implying that Darth Sidious was powerless compared to Darth Nihilus, even if George Lucas has openly proclaimed that Sidious was the most powerful Sith of all time?

 

 

Edit: Pardon for the double post, i just realized that I posted twice :S

Edited February 22, 2007 by Rycal

[Wolfmann]

Umm Wolfmann

Edited February 22, 2007 by Wolfmann

[Wolfmann]

So basically you're implying that Darth Sidious was a powerless compared to Darth Nihilus, even if George Lucas has openly proclaimed that Sidious was the most powerful Sith of all time?

 

 

Edit: Pardon for the double post, i just realized that I posted twice :S

 

How do you define power and how do you define power within the Sith, though?

 

Darth Nihilus was a wound in the force, much, much different. Like a Savant piano player who has no other abilities, social skills, or even intelligent, they can play the piano masterfully. Nihilus was much like that. He probably wasn't the most Powerful Force user, but he was very powerful because Nihilus fed on the force presence and power of OTHER force users.

 

For the intents and purposes of Georege Lucas, the Star Wars canon is massive (he can't possibly be 100% familiar with it), and he was writing his scripts long before Darth Nihilus was created.

 

Darth Sidious could very well be the most powerful Sith of all time, and it does not take away from Darth Nihilus' impressive power, his ability to strike down the strongest force users he seeks. He does consume entire worlds - something that Darth Sidious needed a Death Star to accomplish.

[Guest The Architect]

Rycal, yes, only a wound in the force, or something not connected to it (like droids) could defeat Nihilus. I do not consider Nihilus to be a Sith, because there is a set criteria for what isn

Edited February 23, 2007 by The Architect

[Guest The Architect]

*Double post:

 

Wolfmann, this discussion will never end unless we stop.

 

The bottom line is, we are taking up two very diverse ethical theories. I am agreeing on the theory of Kant and denotology. You treat man as an ends, not as as a mean, and you do something because it

[SpaceAlex]

2nd question is kinda lame, since it depens on your roleplaying

 

Oh, and I'll be back with teh

[Rycal]

I do not consider Nihilus to be a Sith, because there is a set criteria for what isn’t a Sith.

 

Ehm, I think we should consider him a Sith considering that he leads a legion of Sith and is considered a Sith Lord. As a proof of that it is something Kreia mentions in KotoR 2 about his powers, probably coming from the Old Sith Empire and the teachings of Trayus Academy. Doesn't matter if he's a wound or not, he's affiliated with the Sith and considered to be one of their Dark Lords at this period of time. Oh well, maybe we should nag to LA to consider him as something else instead of just a Sith Lord

 

Darth Sidious could very well be the most powerful Sith of all time, and it does not take away from Darth Nihilus' impressive power, his ability to strike down the strongest force users he seeks. He does consume entire worlds - something that Darth Sidious needed a Death Star to accomplish.

 

As far as i know the Death Star destroyed planets, not suck the force powers from them

Edited February 23, 2007 by Rycal

[Wolfmann]

*Double post:

 

Wolfmann, this discussion will never end unless we stop.

 

It's a good one. Why let it die.

 

The bottom line is, we are taking up two very diverse ethical theories. I am agreeing on the theory of Kant and denotology. You treat man as an ends, not as as a mean, and you do something because it

[Wolfmann]

As far as i know the Death Star destroyed planets, not suck the force powers from them

 

If the planet is laid to waste and devoid of sustaining life, is there a difference?

[Rycal]

As far as i know the Death Star destroyed planets, not suck the force powers from them

 

If the planet is laid to waste and devoid of sustaining life, is there a difference?

 

Pretty much. The difference is that Nihilus left the planet intact, the Death Star didn't. So instead of one dead floating rock, you get a million floating dead rocks. I prefer Nihilus' move tho, much more subtle

 

The first stanza in the Jedi Code: there is no emotion, there is peace is not about feeling or having emotion. It is about dealing with, and controlling that emotion and pushing yourself so you have inner peace. You will always have Fear, but a Jedi will control that fear, and channel it into energy they can use. A Jedi always must respectfully fear falling to the Darkside. Inner peace is a Jedi's foundation, whereas emotional chaos is a Sith's foundation.

 

Yoda's example is what can happen when you let this fear run unchecked.

 

Yahoo, another jedi code interpretation I wonder if we'll ever interpret the Sith Code?

Edited February 24, 2007 by Rycal

[Wolfmann]

Pretty much. The difference is that Nihilus left the planet intact, the Death Star didn't. So instead of one dead floating rock, you get a million floating dead rocks. I prefer Nihilus' move tho, much more subtle

 

The original point is that Nihilus did so utilizing his abilities and powers. Sidious needed a machine to amplify some specific knowledge (beit technology or forced based).

 

 

Yahoo, another jedi code interpretation I wonder if we'll ever interpret the Sith Code?

 

Sure...where to start though? heh,heh.

[Rycal]

Lol, I can see us getting offtopic here almost

[SilentScope001]

SilentScope001, murder and self-defence are not the same. Murder is the unlawful and malevolent or premeditated killing of a person. Self defence is the use of violence to protect oneself and is a justification for what would normally be an illegal act. It only becomes wrong if you do not manage to kill the person in self-defence, but go on to kill them while they are defenceless, but that is murder, not self defence.

 

Let me quote from YOU:

Ah, but the morality of an act is not based on how moral or unethical the person or people you do something towards are, it's based entirely on how ethical your own act is. Whether you torture an innocent or a villain doesn't matter, it's wrong either way, because the act alone says something about who you are and the lengths you're willing to go to.

 

So, wheter you murder an innocent person or not does not matter, it's wrong either way, because the act alone says something about who you are, and the lengths you are willing to go...to "defend yourself".

 

Let me also quote from you:

Is it okay (reprogramming Revan’s mind) because the Council only did it to Revan or would it be okay to do to anyone? Because if the moral defense that is that it was necessary under the circumstances, then it really shouldn't matter whether Revan or anyone else was the target, should it?

 

So, let us assume that if the moral defense is that it is necessary under the cirmustances, then it really shouldn't matter who is the target, no? It does not matter if it is Sith, or if it is civilian, if you are doing it in the act of "self-defense", it MUST be good, right?

 

If the situation is that the Jedi Order is right because the alternative is the fall of the Republic, then it doesn't matter who it's done to, does it? But of course, once you go there, it becomes difficult to exclude any act. Is it okay to kill thousands of innocents to save the Republic?

 

Ah, an example of "Self-Defense" right here? Surely, you should defend yourself, and it does not matter from whom you defend yourself, no? If you can defend yourself against an evil person...then surely you can defend yourself from anyone, even innocent people who hate you. They wave protest signs, and protest higher taxes, and they "threaten" the Republic. After all, they are calling for lower taxes, and taxes is what help the Republic, and if they get what they want, they undermine the Republic's rule so surely, in order to do "self-defense" for the Republic, one must kill off these people right?

 

This was the exact same justification Takrin did when killed off a bunch of tax protesters.

 

Not only that, but what if the Jedi Council claim they were doing it for "self-defense"? I mean, Revan is weak, but Revan is a leader of an Empire, and he has data on where the Star Forge is loctaed. Therefore, Revan had to be brainwashed, for "Self-Defense".

 

Sure it is. Preserving the Republic and the Jedi Order is the higher goal, so it doesn't matter what you have to do to for the sake of that goal. Even torture becomes accepted. In fact, anything does. No act, no matter how despicable, is too harsh, because the higher goal always justifies it.

 

Exactly. So, self-defense is immoral. By your own words. We cannot do it to a civilian, so we must not do it to an evil person, or an evil person that is attacking you. Surely, you have to use violence to PROTECT yourself, but as you say before, you beg the question of "Why must you be protected in the first place?"

---

And here lies the thing with moral abosultes. They constrain you. They prevent you from doing what is necessary. Being shackled with lots and lots of abritary nonsense is silly, which is why I hate Kant, especially when one can TWIST said abritrariness to mean what you don't want it to mean.

 

I agree with you that what the Council did was "Wrong", in an certain sense of the word. But it still seems absurd to basically claim that they are evil, when you can make ANYTHING appear to be evil.

Edited February 25, 2007 by SilentScope001

[Darth Rexon]

I think that it was Revan's choice . However, if Juhani and Jolee hadn't been there, I think Revan would have gone off with bastila. Jolee and Juhani helped convince him that the dark sie was bad . I think the act of the council was a crime.

[Guest The Architect]

Rycal, I had an argument about whether Nihilus was a Sith Lord or not around about a few months back. I guess it depends on your own perspective. While Nihilus didn

[Wolfmann]

Wolfmann, my intention wasn

[SilentScope001]

And who considers Nihilus a Sith?

 

As I posted before in the Is Nihilus a Sith topic...Nihlius considers himself a Sith. Therefore, he is a Sith. But I do see it being off-topic here, not having much purpose in this discussion.

 

SilentScope001, you win. I was contradicting myself. I

[Guest The Architect]

No offence taken. I see passionate idealism in you, and it's refreshing. Hold on to it, if you can.

 

Not if. I will.

 

That being said, I believe my reply to your pro-KotOR post on my TSL vs. KotOR thread was a bit

Edited March 1, 2007 by The Architect