Minite-man border fence

[213374U]

I have no issue with spanish being the predominant language where spanish is the predominant ethnicity. What people do on their own is their business.

Heh. Interestingly enough, they aren't Spanish, and they don't see themselves that way. I say this because in my country, we get A LOT of South American ("latin" is a misnomer) immigrants, and they act just the way you have described. This might seem odd since the language is roughly the same, but still they manage to isolate themselves and form their own exclusive communities (I've even seen them go as far as printing their own newspapers for themselves), thus purposefully preventing their integration into our society. I personally hate this. But, it's not their fault. It's ours because we allow them to do it in our country.

 

They are quick to cry xenophobia, too.

[Guard Dog]

I have no issue with spanish being the predominant language where spanish is the predominant ethnicity. What people do on their own is their business.

Heh. Interestingly enough, they aren't Spanish, and they don't see themselves that way. I say this because in my country, we get A LOT of South American ("latin" is a misnomer) immigrants, and they act just the way you have described. This might seem odd since the language is roughly the same, but still they manage to isolate themselves and form their own exclusive communities (I've even seen them go as far as printing their own newspapers for themselves), thus purposefully preventing their integration into our society. I personally hate this. But, it's not their fault. It's ours because we allow them to do it in our country.

 

They are quick to cry xenophobia, too.

I repeat... AMEN! Castillan spanish and Latin spanish sound very different to me. Plus, Castillan is more formal and seems to have a lot of different words, epecially verbs.

[Walsingham]

Alan, you make an interesting point about some elements of menial work being beyond the reach of our society/infrastructure. Rubbish collection is an excellent example, if I may say so. It's a difficult thing to mechanise, but equally not terribly challenging.

 

The answer I have of the top of my head would be that in such a circumstance you need to redesign at a much more fundamental level. At the operational, rather than the tactical. My first thought was regarding shelf stacking If it's too expensive to have a human do it, do we need to display the stuff on shelves? Is there a more efficient system we can use? In other words we recognise the essentially human qualities of teh problem space, but we augment the human. My analogy would be the mechanical digger. We still need a human operator, but instead of a team of navvies we now have one man in a digger.

 

To draw this analogy across to your garbage collection problem, I would suggest that we need a mixed response. Partly the human users (the trash creators) have to get more involved. Less trash/trash volume expenses woudl be a notional start (although I know how such ideas can go awry in practice). More practically we need to streamline the trash collection process into the lorries. For example new buildings/conversions required to have easy access trash collection for fast and easy pickup. Secondly better designed receptacles. We can already see some of these features being introduced in the form of big wheeled bins which residents fill, and are almost entirely automated on collection. Ditto for those street sweeper machines.

 

But I'm not saying that I've answered your point. It's just a start.

 

Guarddog, I'm not really clear on your standpoint. Are you saying there's some US culture which residents should ascribe to? If so, does that mean Minnesotans and Texans are the same? Should they be? Where do you draw the lines?

[Guard Dog]

Guarddog, I'm not really clear on your standpoint. Are you saying there's some US culture which residents should ascribe to? If so, does that mean Minnesotans and Texans are the same? Should they be? Where do you draw the lines?

Common language, common national identity, loyalty to the same flag, acknowledgement of a shared history, contributing to the society you benefit from by way of taxes. These are the things illegals do not do. Here is what they do that I have problems with:

 

Mexicans seek to retake "stolen" land

Protesters fly Mexican flag at a US Post office

Cost of illegal immigration

Mexico provides guidebooks for illegal immigrants sneaking into the US

US Agents face violence at the border

Border States Graple With High Immigrant Crime Rate

Illegal Alien Crime Wave

People murdered by illegal immigrants This one is a must see

 

I could go on and on. This is the beginning of real trouble and it needs to be addressed now.

[alanschu]

Adapt to your enviorment [sic], don't force your enviorment [sic] to adapt to you.

 

Couldn't you apply this same logic to governments?

 

 

Especially seeing as one could argue it's already too late. If you have people in an area all speaking Spanish, complete with Spanish television and more Spanish newspapers than English newspapers, the all English government centre is what's going to look out of place, and it's what's going to make local residents unhappy.

 

You mention Quebec and its issues. Imagine if we suddenly told them that all of their government interactions had to be done in English.

[Guard Dog]

Adapt to your enviorment [sic], don't force your enviorment [sic] to adapt to you.

 

Couldn't you apply this same logic to governments?

 

 

Especially seeing as one could argue it's already too late. If you have people in an area all speaking Spanish, complete with Spanish television and more Spanish newspapers than English newspapers, the all English government centre is what's going to look out of place, and it's what's going to make local residents unhappy.

 

You mention Quebec and its issues. Imagine if we suddenly told them that all of their government interactions had to be done in English.

Big difference, Quebec has ALWAYS been a French speaking province. What is going on today in the US was not happening even 10 years ago.

 

*edit* Yes Alan I know I need to use the doggone spell checker! GRRR.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Guard Dog

[alanschu]

Big difference, Quebec has ALWAYS been a French speaking province. What is going on today in the US was not happening even 10 years ago.

So? The fact of the matter is that there are communities of predominantly Spanish speaking people in the US now (at least according to you). You have commented yourself on how there's more Spanish newspapers in Miami than English newspapers. Mandating that all government interaction be done in English, and only in English, will piss people off. Including legal immigrants that live in those areas. You'll anger ESL residents, as well as leftist Liberals, in addition to Libertarians (to be honest I'm surprised to be having this discussion with you, a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party).

 

 

Yes Alan I know I need to use the doggone spell checker! GRRR.

 

Given I am considering Graduate School, I'm trying to get into the habit of commenting [sic] if I'm quoting a spelling mistake, since it's something I'll need to do in my thesis.

Edited February 3, 2007 by alanschu

[Sand]

I don't mind people speaking foriegn tongue. As long a I can understand them through accent or gestures all is good. I do think that we need stronger education practices and support for legal immigrants to give them the opportunity to learn English, but I am also for educating our grade school children foreign languages as well, such as Spanish, Chinese, and Japanesse.

[Gorth]

Out of curiosity (because history interests me), what happened to the mexicans who used to live there before the english speaking immigrants came to California? Did they all get killed off? Did they get the same deal as the native indians elsewhere (reservations etc.) ?

 

I remember reading up on some history, that the mexican goverment tried to buy the loyalty of the new english settlers by offering them land, but the end result was that they accepted the land but stayed loyal to their US neighbour. It almost looks like history is repeating itself, just with in the reverse direction

[213374U]

Adapt to your enviorment [sic], don't force your enviorment [sic] to adapt to you.

 

Couldn't you apply this same logic to governments?

When you are a guest in someone else's house, do you try and force them do things your way?

[Volourn]

"You mention Quebec and its issues. Imagine if we suddenly told them that all of their government interactions had to be done in English."

 

The only issue Quebec has is its bigotry.

[alanschu]

Adapt to your enviorment [sic], don't force your enviorment [sic] to adapt to you.

 

Couldn't you apply this same logic to governments?

When you are a guest in someone else's house, do you try and force them do things your way?

 

 

Are governments supposed to force people to act a certain way, or represent the people of the constituency?

[Guard Dog]

Out of curiosity (because history interests me), what happened to the mexicans who used to live there before the english speaking immigrants came to California? Did they all get killed off? Did they get the same deal as the native indians elsewhere (reservations etc.) ?

 

I remember reading up on some history, that the mexican goverment tried to buy the loyalty of the new english settlers by offering them land, but the end result was that they accepted the land but stayed loyal to their US neighbour. It almost looks like history is repeating itself, just with in the reverse direction

Actually you bring up a good point. The Mexicans have no historical standing to assert any past "ownership" of the southwest. Only the Pueblo and Navajo indians can do that.

[213374U]

Are governments supposed to force people to act a certain way, or represent the people of the constituency?

You didn't answer the question, which leads me to believe you are just being argumentative.

 

It's not a matter of government, but a matter of customs, culture, and manners (or lack thereof). If the majority of immigrants were of that African ethnicity that encourages female genital mutilation, should the government just legalize it because "the government should represent the constituency"? An extreme example no doubt, but valid still, since it's ultimately an example of culture clash. Furthermore, the extent and validity of the "constituency" you refer to is in dispute as well, since illegals by definition are not a part of that.

 

So I'll reformulate. If you were an exchange student living with a family abroad, would you adapt to them or force them to do things your way?

Edited February 4, 2007 by 213374U

[Guard Dog]

Mandating that all government interaction be done in English, and only in English, will piss people off. Including legal immigrants that live in those areas. You'll anger ESL residents, as well as leftist Liberals, in addition to Libertarians (to be honest I'm surprised to be having this discussion with you, a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party).

Yes it would anger a lot of people. Thats why it will never happen. As I told Walsh, nothing can be done about it at this point. Illegal immigration, and catering to it are the political realities of the day. There is no leader with the fortitude to tackle the subject, or the political clout to get anyone to follow them. So it will progress to the only end such a process can have; a schisim.

 

Libertarianisim is, in my view, a strict interpretation of the Constitution which does not in any way require the governement to spend tax dollars to help people breaking the law. Ditto that for ANY state constitution I am aware of. But I would imagine quite a few of my party mates would agree with your take on this. But identfying with a political philosophy for the most part does not require you to adhere to it's position on every issue. (That is something the US Democrat party needs to learn.) I'm against legalizing hard drugs too, something that led to some heated arguments with my backers in the 1996 campaign.

 

On a side note, the Libertarian Party is mostly made of two types. The first is the single issue nuts who only care about legalizing drugs. The second is the political idealists who want to go from the heavy handed government we have now, to a tiny constrained government overnight. Political pragamtists (like myself, I'd like to think) are few. That "all or nothing" mentality is why our party is going nowhere.

[Gorth]

Out of curiosity (because history interests me), what happened to the mexicans who used to live there before the english speaking immigrants came to California? Did they all get killed off? Did they get the same deal as the native indians elsewhere (reservations etc.) ?

 

I remember reading up on some history, that the mexican goverment tried to buy the loyalty of the new english settlers by offering them land, but the end result was that they accepted the land but stayed loyal to their US neighbour. It almost looks like history is repeating itself, just with in the reverse direction

Actually you bring up a good point. The Mexicans have no historical standing to assert any past "ownership" of the southwest. Only the Pueblo and Navajo indians can do that.

The discussion made me curious and I dug a bit history up from various sources. Man that place has a colourful history. It could almost have been European with all the ethnic groups and forms of governments over less than five centuries :cool:

 

First there was the natives, then the spanish settlers, the mexicans, the russians (not to mention the monarchy of New Helvetia founded by that swiss guy), the independent republic of California and finally conquered by Commodore Sloat for the US.

 

Apart from the fate of the indians, none of the history books seems to care much about the losers of wars though.

[Walsingham]

Guard dog, I'm not disagreeing with your point about teh fence. i agree that illegal immigration needs to be controlled. The arguments in favour of it are largely specious. For starters I don't believe you genuinely are lacking in low-income ready people that are homegrown just yet.

 

But what I am saying is that if you are hoping to achieve any kind of homogeneity enforced by a democracy you've chosen the wrong political system. In a democracy teh state reflects the will of the people, whoever they are. If you want to encourage the use of English I'd suggest your best weapons are engagement, and education, not trying to erect barriers which will perforce be no more use than sandcastles.

[J.E. Sawyer]

And illegals don't pull from SS, so why should it matter that they don't put money into it?

Guess again.

 

Social Security for illegal aliens

That's a great article that talks about illegals becoming legals and receiving SS benefits. In the article, it even says,

 

"To get Social Security benefits, you do have to be legally in the United States. This agreement does not address in any way immigration, immigration laws or override current law," he said, adding that a 2004 law, the Social Security Protection Act, prevents illegal aliens from getting benefits.

 

It is also legislation that hasn't passed and hopefully will not. I don't think that people who don't pay into SS should benefit from it. Of course, I also think that SS is a doomed program.

 

Which is more important? Cash or the health of a society through orderly and equitable rule of law?

Long-term health of society is most important, period. If we need to establish special work-visa programs to transition out of the current illegal employment situation, I'm fine with that. I just think that trying to solve the problem by walling off hundreds of miles of the border between the U.S. and Mexico is a) not going to "fix" the issue in way that guarantees stability for our markets that use illegal labor and b) insular and xenophobic in a time when that no longer flies.

 

If you're going to have a border, make it work.

Writes the man on an island.

 

Your nation will be perfectly fine without cheap pool boys and chamber maids. You might, gods forbid, have to learn to do these jobs yourselves.

No non-illegals want to do these jobs. People have advertised for things like field workers and day laborers at minimum wage prices and only Mexicans (usually illegals) apply.

 

The first one that jumps to mind is the Western Roman Empire.

You should really know better than to take what is probably the most contentious historical issue ever and chalk the source of the problems up to language. Since Walsingham's in on the fun, let's talk about the specific role of Brittania in the collapse of the Roman Empire. This was an island where most of the natives/migrated tribes beat the crap out of each other constantly. The Romans came in, set up shop, and they did force many people to use Latin, only keeping "work words". Things like the revolt of Boudica and the disappearance of the ninth legion at York (Jorvik/Eboracum) didn't happen because the langauge was different. They happened because the Roman governors were cruel to the tribes and could not subdue them. The overall collapse of Roman Britain was not helped by repeated rebellions from its governors in Londinium. It's really a testament to the incompetence of Roman leadership in the area that they couldn't adequately conquer a island populated by people who could not stop fighting each other.

 

Anyway, look at Great Britain now. It's a nation that was built by tribes from all over Western Europe. Angles, Saxons, Normans, and even earlier Celts. Only two centuries ago, you could have found people speaking Welsh, Manx, Cornish, Breton, and Scottish Gaelic in the country. English itself is a Germanic language heavily influenced by Old French, Latin, and Celt languages. "Multiculturalism" seemed to work out reasonably well for them. But let's look at other countries.

 

Is Switzerland doomed to fall apart? They speak four languages there. In France, about half a million people in the south still speak Occitan. Will Wales collapse into their old riotous ways if Welsh continues to make a comeback? Belgium? Belgium is an entirely artificial country, and they still manage to get by.

 

For starters I don't believe you genuinely are lacking in low-income ready people that are homegrown just yet.

Illegals are paid well below minimum wage. Also, our minimum wage is rising to above $7 by 2009. Combine this with the general fact that virtually no legal residents of areas like SoCal (for instance) want to do these jobs and you have a recipe for collapse. I think this is especially dangerous in SoCal's construction industry, a sector that is already softening.

[theslug]

I really think this whole "we depend on the illegal immigrants to do our dirty work" is a complete and utter fallacy. Yeah they do a lot of construction and such but I mean they are replaceable. If you know anything about business and the hierarchy, everyone is replaceable. I mean you could set up the same type of deal with over crowded jails and such with a worker-inmate program. They work for pretty much nothing while the jail gets a nice grant and the money goes straight into the pockets of some shady characters and you're set. All you have to do is check out some of the links that gaurd dog has put up. They are just leaching from the U.S costing us millions in health care and other social programs. Not to mention they inflate crime, cost us tons of money to translate and make new signs and they live in slums. I can't think of really one good thing they bring other than cheap labor. Sure you might say culture but not really. In my experience anyone with real Spanish heritage hate Mexicans with a passion, probably because they came here legally and aren't a blight on society. I'd say the ones here can stay as long as no more can come in, they learn English along with there children, any illegal that is charged with a felony or string of misdemeanors is deported and never allowed back in.

 

Edit: why do mods hate on me just because i say some things i mean we are all almost adults here can't we just get along?

Edited February 4, 2007 by theslug

[J.E. Sawyer]

I really think this whole "we depend on the illegal immigrants to do our dirty work" is a complete and utter fallacy. Yeah they do a lot of construction and such but I mean they are replaceable.

They cannot be replaced at the rates they are paid. They also cannot necessarily be replaced by a resident workforce because legal residents are reticent to take many of these jobs (construction being a good exception). The effect on a consumer would only be noticed slightly, but the economies of scale would have a larger effect on employers. I think we need a better work-visa program for Mexican labor, not a huge fence.

 

Not to mention they inflate crime, cost us tons of money to translate and make new signs and they live in slums.

Poor people live in slums and commit crime, whether they are legal or illegal residents. Also, Spanish still uses the Roman alphabet and in many places (like SoCal) many things have Spanish names. Places like Koreatown in Los Angeles or Garden Grove in Orange County have signs in Korean and Vietnamese, respectively. Those are for mostly legal immigrants. What's your opinion on that?

 

I can't think of really one good thing they bring other than cheap labor. Sure you might say culture but not really. In my experience anyone with real Spanish heritage hate Mexicans with a passion, probably because they came here legally and aren't a blight on society.

Mexicans have their own culture, often referred to as "Mexican".

[J.E. Sawyer]

Okay, let me just propose an alternative and see what people think of it.

 

1) We establish work-visa programs for Mexicans and Central Americans to do temporary or seasonal work in the U.S. Put them in the system, track them through the system. We adjust the number of visas available on a yearly basis at our discretion.

 

2) Instead of building a wall, we use human beings in helicopters and off-road vehicles employing FLIR sensor equipment to locate illegals. This general idea worked pretty well when we tried it previously.

 

In my mind, this allows us to maintain access to a workforce as we need it and it allows us to control our border with intelligence instead of a physical obstacle. I have very little faith that a physical wall will really do us much good.

[Sand]

I have to agree, J.E., but there are a few nutcase Republicans that won't listen to reasonable alternatives like what you proposed. One of them is Iowa's own Steve King, the epitome of Republican nutcase.

[Hurlshort]

It's funny how this thread is basically people saying the same thing over and over again. THE US RELIES ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. BUILDING A WALL WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. Seriously, go read a book on Mexican immigration before you act like you have an informed opinion. The best bet is working with Mexico. We don't have a problem with the Canadian border, do we? So maybe the US should worry less about protecting its comfortable place in the world and worry more about helping others reach the same place.

 

Also, I live in a predominantly hispanic community. I teach in a predominantly minority school. I probably have a few illegal immigrants living in my condo. complex. It's pretty funny to hear people from Canada and England talking about Mexican immigration like its really an issue for them. This is not the Roman Empire. The US is a culture of many cultures, and anybody who thinks that Mexicans are going to destroy American identity is forgetting their own history.

[213374U]

It's funny how this thread is basically people saying the same thing over and over again. THE US RELIES ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. BUILDING A WALL WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. Seriously, go read a book on Mexican immigration before you act like you have an informed opinion. The best bet is working with Mexico. We don't have a problem with the Canadian border, do we? So maybe the US should worry less about protecting its comfortable place in the world and worry more about helping others reach the same place.

Can you point to some book on Mexican immigration you have read to reach your (obviously) informed opinion?

[Hurlshort]

Sure, I've also taken classes on the subject as a History major and a teacher in California. I had an excellent professor at San Jose State who used to work as a diplomat in the Middle East and in Mexico (which seems like an odd mix, but it is the government.) He had us read the following books, although my guess is there is more recent literature that reflects the changes within both the US and Mexican government.

 

This book is an excellent one just on the Mexican political system, and it explains a lot about why people head to the US for work in the first place.

 

I've heard good things about this book. I haven't read it yet myself, but I have it sitting on a shelf for the summer, or the next CA history class I end up in.

 

This book is actually about the Dust Bowl migration, but I think it parallels well with the subject, and it was a great read. It shows that this is not a new problem, and that resisting entire cultural groups never pans out in the end.

 

This textbook is on CA history, really, but there is great information on labor and minorities.

 

I have another good book in my classroom, but I'll have to add it later as I can't for the life of me remember the title. You'll notice most of these focus on California. That's because I live there, but it's also at the forefront of this whole issue, and I think it's a great place to begin any education on cultural diversity and immigration in the US.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Hurlshot