Minite-man border fence

[213374U]

A country that cannot protect the sovreignty of its borders is not a country. Just ask the Western Roman Empire.

Empire what? "

 

j/k

 

 

you don't have to be an advocate of fencing to be fenced

 

 

As for the fence itself... yeah. As Josh said, illegal immigrants serve a purpose. If you remove them with initiatives like this, you're going to cause more trouble than you're actually solving...

[Volourn]

Illegaql immigrants spit in the face of legal immigrants. Illegals should be thrown out of the country, and told not to return until they come in the legal way. It's sad that people actually believe it's ok to ignore the fact that they ar ebrekaing the law yet demand the law punishes legal immigrants and civilians when they break the law.

 

R00fles!

[213374U]

First off, adding "r00fles!" at the end of your posts does not strengthen your case, regardless of what you might have heard.

 

And then, I never said "it's ok" to have illegal immigrants. But they exist, and removing them is not easy or even viable without causing new (and possibly worse) problems. They most certainly can't be "thrown out" just like that.

 

Other than that, yeah. Countries should be able to uphold their right to police their boundaries as they see fit, all immigrants should be required to go through all proper official procedures, and all that jazz. In theory.

[Hurlshort]

Illegaql immigrants spit in the face of legal immigrants. Illegals should be thrown out of the country, and told not to return until they come in the legal way. It's sad that people actually believe it's ok to ignore the fact that they ar ebrekaing the law yet demand the law punishes legal immigrants and civilians when they break the law.

 

R00fles!

 

Today, when I was driving to work, I went over the speed limit. I spit in the face of the law! Woohoo.

 

Seriously Volourn, you do realize that the American economy would collapse overnight if all illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared, don't you?

[Volourn]

"Seriously Volourn, you do realize that the American economy would collapse overnight if all illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared, don't you? "

 

That's why you handle it intelligently. Nowhere did I state that every illegal immigrnat should be woudned up tonight and thrown out of the country pronto. You take your time, do it right, and things should work out fine. Nowher edid I mention the word 'suddenly'. :crazy:

 

The reason why the Amerikan economy is so dependent on illegal immigration is because the problem has been ignored for too long. Last I checked, not too many other countries suffer from this problem at this level. You got to slowly, and intelligently take back the economy from such a high dependence on immorla thieves (both the illgeal immigrants themselves 8and* those who hire them). At the very minimum, if you find an illegal who has done well make them legal so they can at leats start paying taxes and getting paid minimum wage.

 

The country's economy will likely take a fall in the short temr; but it'll rebound as people *will* adapt in the long run.

 

Game over, CRIMINALS, game over.

 

 

 

"First off, adding "r00fles!" at the end of your posts does not strengthen your case, regardless of what you might have heard."

 

R00fles!

Edited February 2, 2007 by Volourn

[Darque]

Illegaql immigrants spit in the face of legal immigrants. Illegals should be thrown out of the country, and told not to return until they come in the legal way. It's sad that people actually believe it's ok to ignore the fact that they ar ebrekaing the law yet demand the law punishes legal immigrants and civilians when they break the law.

 

R00fles!

[213374U]

You got to slowly, and intelligently take back the economy from such a high dependence on immorla thieves (both the illgeal immigrants themselves 8and* those who hire them).

"R00fle!" all you want, but I have trouble picturing people that live below the threshold of poverty and whose only aim is to feed themselves and their families abroad as "immoral thieves". And in many cases, if their employers had to rely on legal labor, they would go bankrupt...

 

Keep in mind that not everyone that is not Volourn is an Evil Megacorporation.

[Volourn]

Make exuses for theft all you want; but that's exactly what it is. And, if employers can't efford legal labor; perhaps they shouldn't be employers. It's not justc riminal; it's immoral!

 

Lots of hard working people and even lazy people get minimum wage and it's not like they are living the high life either. Boo hoo hoo! I shall not cry for scumbags who spit in the eye of thsoe who come to countries legally or employers who actually pay their employees fairly instead of taking advantage of desperate criminals.

 

R00fles!

[Laozi]

My guess is none of those complaining really live in places where illiegal immigration is much of a factor

[213374U]

Make exuses for theft all you want; but that's exactly what it is.

In fact, theft is defined differently than you think. Right now, the way illegal immigrants are integrated into the economic tissue of the country makes it so they provide more than they take from it. Therefore, it's not theft.

 

 

And, if employers can't efford legal labor; perhaps they shouldn't be employers.

Probably. But then many small and mid-sized businesses would not be able to operate, which may lead to a certain degree of economic recession. Not that you care about that, though, as it would be a LAWFUL depression.

 

 

It's not justc riminal; it's immoral!

Another word whose meaning obviously escapes you. Maybe you should stick to monosyllabes from now on?

 

 

Lots of hard working people and even lazy people get minimum wage and it's not like they are living the high life either. Boo hoo hoo! I shall not cry for scumbags who spit in the eye of thsoe who come to countries legally or employers who actually pay their employees fairly instead of taking advantage of desperate criminals.

Yes. Because operating outside of the law is so much fun, everyone wants to do it!

 

Edited for DRAMA!

Edited February 2, 2007 by 213374U

[Volourn]

"In fact, theft is defined differently than you think"

 

Actually, theft fits fine.

 

 

 

"Probably. But then many small and mid-sized businesses would not be able to operate,"

 

Except for the known fact that many small and mid sized business do work just fine in the US (as well as my home country) and do it fairly.

 

 

 

"Not that you care about that, though, as it would be a LAWFUL depression."

 

L0L It's not just the law. It's about morals. This is one of those laws I agree with morally. If you migrate to a country you should do it legally and orderly since it's best all around for everyone. Sneaking in is blatantly unfair to those who enter the country fairly and legitly.

 

Same with employers. Hireing illegal immigrants gives you an unfair advantage on those employers who treat their employees fairly and above the board.

 

 

R00fles!

Edited February 2, 2007 by Volourn

[Gfted1]

Lots of hard working people and even lazy people get minimum wage and it's not like they are living the high life either. Boo hoo hoo! I shall not cry for scumbags who spit in the eye of thsoe who come to countries legally or employers who actually pay their employees fairly instead of taking advantage of desperate criminals.

Yes. Because operating outside of the law is so much fun, everyone wants to do it!

 

Edited for DRAMA!

 

No, only about 50% of them.

 

About half of the nearly 190,000 illegal immigrants deported last year had criminal records, U.S. authorities said.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Gfted1

[213374U]

Lots of hard working people and even lazy people get minimum wage and it's not like they are living the high life either. Boo hoo hoo! I shall not cry for scumbags who spit in the eye of thsoe who come to countries legally or employers who actually pay their employees fairly instead of taking advantage of desperate criminals.

Yes. Because operating outside of the law is so much fun, everyone wants to do it!

 

Edited for DRAMA!

 

No, only about 50% of them.

 

About half of the nearly 190,000 illegal immigrants deported last year had criminal records, U.S. authorities said.

Actually, you should re-read the article. It's more about the increasing efficiency in identifying illegal immigrants in US jails and prisons so they can be deported, than an actual study on the proportion of criminal illegals.

 

There isn't a direct relation between the fact that 50% of the deported illegal immigrants last year had criminal records and the actual proportion of illegal immigrant criminals. After all, it makes sense that criminals have more chances of being deported than non-criminals.

 

EDIT: damn I'm dense today.

Edited February 2, 2007 by 213374U

[Guard Dog]

My guess is none of those complaining really live in places where illiegal immigration is much of a factor

 

That is the most intelligent statement in this whole thread. People in Florida, California, Texas and Arizona are facing tax increases to pay for social services for illegal immigrants who do not belong here to begin with. It's easy to feel sorry for the plight of the poor illegals when you never see them, are victimized by crimes they may commit, or have to pay their way.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Guard Dog

[213374U]

That is the most intelligent statement in this whole thread. People in Florida, California, Texas and Arizona are facing tax increases to pay for social services for illegal immigrants who do not belong here to begin with. It's easy to feel sorry for the plight of the poor illegals when you never see them, are victimized by crimes they may commit, or have to pay their way.

While I know you are not addressing me specifically, I'll just let you know I'm Spanish. And we have a bit of an immigration problem as well.

 

Just so you don't mischaracterize me. Not saying you would, of course.

[Guard Dog]

Just so you don't mischaracterize me. Not saying you would, of course.

Did not know where were you were from, but thats cool. No I was not referring to anyone in particular.

 

 

*edit* Hey, that MY line in your "From" slot on you user name!

Edited February 2, 2007 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

Lots of hard working people and even lazy people get minimum wage and it's not like they are living the high life either. Boo hoo hoo! I shall not cry for scumbags who spit in the eye of thsoe who come to countries legally or employers who actually pay their employees fairly instead of taking advantage of desperate criminals.

Yes. Because operating outside of the law is so much fun, everyone wants to do it!

 

Edited for DRAMA!

 

No, only about 50% of them.

 

About half of the nearly 190,000 illegal immigrants deported last year had criminal records, U.S. authorities said.

Actually, you should re-read the article. It's more about the increasing efficiency in identifying illegal immigrants in US jails and prisons so they can be deported, than an actual study on the proportion of criminal illegals.

 

There isn't a direct relation between the fact that 50% of the deported illegal immigrants last year had criminal records and the actual proportion of illegal immigrant criminals. After all, it makes sense that criminals have more chances of being deported than non-criminals.

 

EDIT: damn I'm dense today.

 

 

I understand the intention of the article, I just thought it had a little tie-in to your statement. However, I dont understand your second paragraph. The way I read that is, out of all the people deported last year (not just the ones already in jail) roughly 50% had existing criminal records. IMO, I feel that does show some cause and effect. People already predisposed to crime have no qualms about breaking more laws to further their own gain/status (such as illegally immigrating).

[Xard]

The fencing will be built with privately donated funds, engineering and lab or and will be used as an example to educate the public about the feasibility and efficacy of fencing to secure America

[Gfted1]

The fencing will be built with privately donated funds, engineering and lab or and will be used as an example to educate the public about the feasibility and efficacy of fencing to secure America

[Gorgon]

If you haven't got a pot to piss in and no prospects and America offers a chance for you and your family, screw the law and where you happen to be from. Any of you would do the same.

[Gfted1]

If you haven't got a pot to piss in and no prospects and America offers a chance for you and your family, screw the law and where you happen to be from. Any of you would do the same.

 

 

Eh, its not like we have closed borders or anything. Every sigle immigrant is afforded the opportunity to legally enter the country, some simply choose the easier route. It has nothing to do with them, and their poor family, being screwed out of opportunities.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Illegaql immigrants spit in the face of legal immigrants. Illegals should be thrown out of the country, and told not to return until they come in the legal way. It's sad that people actually believe it's ok to ignore the fact that they ar ebrekaing the law yet demand the law punishes legal immigrants and civilians when they break the law.

 

R00fles!

Humans create law to serve society's best interests. It is not in our best interest (in my opinion) to enforce illegal immigration laws aggressively. Similarly, it is not in our best interest to enforce speeding laws aggressively. It's certainly not in law enforcement's best interests to do so, as it would cause everyone to slow down so much that their revenue streams would be significantly hampered. This is why (for example), San Diego police have yearly "traffic months" where they swat down speeders non-stop all day long along the 5, 805, 15, and 163 freeways. They let up after that month because everyone has slowed down; they no longer gain the revenue that they desire.

 

Laws have no volition of their own. They exist and operate because we collectively choose to keep them around.

 

L0L It's not just the law. It's about morals. This is one of those laws I agree with morally. If you migrate to a country you should do it legally and orderly since it's best all around for everyone. Sneaking in is blatantly unfair to those who enter the country fairly and legitly.

 

Same with employers. Hireing illegal immigrants gives you an unfair advantage on those employers who treat their employees fairly and above the board.

National borders are arbitrarily defined. Place of birth is not chosen. Minimum wage laws are arbitrary. People who legally immigrate to the U.S. cannot fill the same role as illegal laborers. Documented residents must be accounted for, which means that they have to go through the same tax, insurance, etc. systems as all other citizens. People who immigrate legally are almost assuredly not attempting to gain the same jobs as illegal laborers (basic manual labor). Saying that legal immigration is "best all around for everyone" ignores the plain economic facts about illegal immigration -- especially in areas like SoCal. The United States has three times the arable land as Canada, and subsidized agriculture is one of the country's strong points. Our food is abundant, cheap, and we have enough of a surplus that we have a net export (the last time I checked, France is the only other nation that can claim this). If every laborer working in fields gained an hourly wage of 7+ USD by 2009, you can bet that agricultural advantage would weaken severely. Why should the U.S. aggressively enforce laws that weaken one its own major industries (not to mention sundry other support labor groups)?

[Guard Dog]

Illegaql immigrants spit in the face of legal immigrants. Illegals should be thrown out of the country, and told not to return until they come in the legal way. It's sad that people actually believe it's ok to ignore the fact that they ar ebrekaing the law yet demand the law punishes legal immigrants and civilians when they break the law.

 

R00fles!

Humans create law to serve society's best interests. It is not in our best interest (in my opinion) to enforce illegal immigration laws aggressively. Similarly, it is not in our best interest to enforce speeding laws aggressively. It's certainly not in law enforcement's best interests to do so, as it would cause everyone to slow down so much that their revenue streams would be significantly hampered. This is why (for example), San Diego police have yearly "traffic months" where they swat down speeders non-stop all day long along the 5, 805, 15, and 163 freeways. They let up after that month because everyone has slowed down; they no longer gain the revenue that they desire.

 

Laws have no volition of their own. They exist and operate because we collectively choose to keep them around.

 

L0L It's not just the law. It's about morals. This is one of those laws I agree with morally. If you migrate to a country you should do it legally and orderly since it's best all around for everyone. Sneaking in is blatantly unfair to those who enter the country fairly and legitly.

 

Same with employers. Hireing illegal immigrants gives you an unfair advantage on those employers who treat their employees fairly and above the board.

National borders are arbitrarily defined. Place of birth is not chosen. Minimum wage laws are arbitrary. People who legally immigrate to the U.S. cannot fill the same role as illegal laborers. Documented residents must be accounted for, which means that they have to go through the same tax, insurance, etc. systems as all other citizens. People who immigrate legally are almost assuredly not attempting to gain the same jobs as illegal laborers (basic manual labor). Saying that legal immigration is "best all around for everyone" ignores the plain economic facts about illegal immigration -- especially in areas like SoCal. The United States has three times the arable land as Canada, and subsidized agriculture is one of the country's strong points. Our food is abundant, cheap, and we have enough of a surplus that we have a net export (the last time I checked, France is the only other nation that can claim this). If every laborer working in fields gained an hourly wage of 7+ USD by 2009, you can bet that agricultural advantage would weaken severely. Why should the U.S. aggressively enforce laws that weaken one its own major industries (not to mention sundry other support labor groups)?

Fine, I have no problem with a guest worker program so long as it is strictly regulated and the earnings of the workers taxed just like everyone else in the country (who ever thought a libertarian would say that?). My problem is that by turning a blind eye on these people they are putting a drain on emergency rooms and other tax dollar subsidized medicine, police assets, border patrol, and a number of other social services including schools in many cases. Heck the California State Legislature wants to give these people drivers licenses but you can bet they pay little or no state taxes and few bother to buy insurance. They are a drain on the infrastructure without contributing to the tax base. Most are paid in cash or have bogus SSNs so they contribute nothing other than sales tax to the economy they benefit from. But to give these people, who ARE breaking the law, more programs, living assistance, medical care, whatever, I have to pay for it in higher taxes. No, that is wrong.

[J.E. Sawyer]

They are a drain on the infrastructure without contributing to the tax base. Most are paid in cash or have bogus SSNs so they contribute nothing other than sales tax to the economy they benefit from.

They do not contribute to the tax base, but they reduce the cost of goods and services across the state dramatically. A large portion of the goods and services purchased by Californians (for example) have a lower cost because illegal Mexican labor is involved. And illegals don't pull from SS, so why should it matter that they don't put money into it? Giving driver's licenses to illegals is sort of tricky. We can either accept that they are going to drive (licensed or not, insured or not) and have no paper trail to them and no way to inform them of our traffic laws, or we can license them, track them, and at least require them to go through our basic driver's education requirements.

[Guard Dog]

And illegals don't pull from SS, so why should it matter that they don't put money into it?

Guess again.

 

Social Security for illegal aliens