After finishing NWN2, all I can say great story, terrible gameplay. I really think you guys could make the next benchmark D&D game. You guys should buy linscense TOEE and do an original obsidian story while keeping the gameplay and rules in TOEE. Well anyway thanks for the game.

After finishing NWN2, all I can say great story, terrible gameplay. I really think you guys could make the next benchmark D&D game. You guys should buy linscense TOEE and do an original obsidian story while keeping the gameplay and rules in TOEE.  Well anyway thanks for the game.

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Although I personally enjoyed the game engine that ToEE used, there are a few reasons that this won't work.

 

First, it's a graphically inferior engine You can't go backwards graphically in this industry.

 

Second, ToEE didn't do well. Sadly, turn based games in general are struggling. The pausing system is the closest we will get from a major developer. I'd like to see this change, but I doubt they would use an engine from a title that already bombed to lead a revival.

I personally think they should take the NWN2 engine/toolset/DM client and create another game. Maybe a star wars game. There are a lot of Star Wars fans who loved the KOTOR series (Check out the current poll on the Lucas Arts site, KOTOR was voted the most popular Star Wars game). Imagine a KOTOR like game with the addition of a toolset and DM client that is available in NWN2. Of course this game should include classes other than Jedi.

 

My least favorite part of the KOTOR series was the fact that they were made for consoles and then ported to the PC. I'd like to see a KOTOR game made with the same quality as NWN2.

 

With the popularity of the first NWN and NWN2, I don't see why game makers won't pursue other games like this. Obsidian has a history of working with NWN and has worked with Lucas Arts in the past. I'd think that if any company could pull off a game like this, Obsidian could.

Edited November 24, 200619 yr by Joukahainen

"My least favorite part of the KOTOR series was the fact that they were made for consoles and then ported to the PC."

 

No true. JE is a port. KOTOR (and it sequel) were made with both console and PC in mind. It was not a port.

 

I think Obsidian's next move should to make expansion for NWN2. Everything else is a bonus to me.

I think Obsidian's next move should to make expansion for NWN2. Everything else is a bonus to me.

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I agree. A nice big expansion would suite me.

I think Obsidian's next move should to make expansion for NWN2. Everything else is a bonus to me.

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I agree. A nice big expansion would suite me.

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Indeed, although I'm not sure if I would want it to reach the Epic levels. Guess I'm one of those strange kind of people that doesn't care about a Monty Haul but have the most fun in a low level campaign, such as Baldurs Gate.

Um. BG, and every other CRPG I have ever played has been monty haul. You don't need epic levels for monty haul to occur.

"My least favorite part of the KOTOR series was the fact that they were made for consoles and then ported to the PC."

 

No true. JE is a port. KOTOR (and it sequel) were made with both console and PC in mind. It was not a port.

 

I think Obsidian's next move should to make expansion for NWN2. Everything else is a bonus to me.

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Actually, I disagree. I'm pretty sure I remember reading posts from the developers that stated the game(s) were created and then ported to the PC. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

Regardless of whether or not they were ported, the fact is that consoles don't have as much potential as PC's. Look at the difference between KOTOR and NWN. KOTOR was created after NWN. Even if you forget about the toolset, multiplayer and DM client capabilities there is still a claustrophobic feel to the KOTOR games which is made up of a series of hall ways with rooms attached where you can complete quests. The only difference between the hall ways is that they were disguised to look like both interior and exterior environments on different planets.

 

My point is that I would like to have a PC star wars RPG made with the same capabilities that NWN and NWN2 has. This isn't going to happen if it's made for both the consoles and PC.

 

As far as epic levels go... I think they are unnecessary. In D&D, 20th level is pretty much epic. Look up some of the famous NPC's in the Forgotten Realms. Drizzt (One of the more famous characters) is like a 16th level ranger or something like that.

Edited November 26, 200619 yr by Joukahainen

damn, I haven't posted for years, what am I doing this for...

 

Um. BG, and every other CRPG I have ever played has been monty haul. You don't need epic levels for monty haul to occur.

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That's because D&D is built to be a monty-haul (see the various loot tables in the DMG for proof); if you don't it gets unbalanced.

 

This irritated me enough as a DM that I rewrote all the classes so that I didn't have to remember to give them all their individualised Random Objects of +N at appropriate times...

"That's because D&D is built to be a monty-haul (see the various loot tables in the DMG for proof); if you don't it gets unbalanced."

 

It's not a D&D problem. Pretty much all CRPGs are monty haul. Wizardry, M&M, FO, you name it.

 

 

"Actually, I disagree. I'm pretty sure I remember reading posts from the developers that stated the game(s) were created and then ported to the PC. I may be wrong, but I don't think so."

 

KOTOR came out on console first; but it wasn't a port. It was designed with both in mind and at the same time.

 

 

"Regardless of whether or not they were ported, the fact is that consoles don't have as much potential as PC's."

 

That's not a fact. Sorry. It's a myth started by PC fanboys.

"Regardless of whether or not they were ported, the fact is that consoles don't have as much potential as PC's."

 

That's not a fact. Sorry. It's a myth started by PC fanboys.

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Huh? Look, I love consoles, but they are limited compared to PC's. From the architecture down to the OS, you just can't upgrade a console and push the technological envelope like you can with PC's. The PS3 is a hefty machine, but it's locked into the current technology, whereas PC's will continue to get faster. Not to mention the fact that PC's are applicable in more than just gaming and media.

I've enjoyed PC games more than console ones. I often found them more umm 'intelligent'. hmm. :cool:

I've enjoyed PC games more than console too... and pretty much for the same reason as Oracle.

After finishing NWN2, all I can say great story, terrible gameplay. I really think you guys could make the next benchmark D&D game. You guys should buy linscense TOEE and do an original obsidian story while keeping the gameplay and rules in TOEE.  Well anyway thanks for the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Although I personally enjoyed the game engine that ToEE used, there are a few reasons that this won't work.

 

First, it's a graphically inferior engine You can't go backwards graphically in this industry.

 

Second, ToEE didn't do well. Sadly, turn based games in general are struggling. The pausing system is the closest we will get from a major developer. I'd like to see this change, but I doubt they would use an engine from a title that already bombed to lead a revival.

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1. I would hardly call TOEE ugly

2. It didn't do badly, it remains troiki most profitable game from what I understand, it just took a long time to become a big seller.

3. I would gladly sacrafice graphics for an honest to goodness turn base rpg. I don't understand why developers have become so obessed with real-time Rpgs esp for group game, or at the very least give us to option of playing the game in turn-based mode, ala arcanum.

TToEE did not fail because it was 2D or turn based. It did fail BECAUSE IT HAD NO STORY WHATSOEVER !! It was an uber boring dungeon walk.

 

Give us a BG/NWN/KotoR like party and story and it would have rocked. I dunno if people really would have bought it in masses, however.

1. I would hardly call TOEE ugly

2. It didn't do badly, it remains troiki most profitable game from what I understand, it just took a long time to become a big seller.

3. I would gladly sacrafice graphics for an honest to goodness turn base rpg. I don't understand why developers have become so obessed with real-time Rpgs esp for group game, or at the very least give us to option of playing the game in turn-based mode, ala arcanum.

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I never called ToEE ugly, I said it's a graphically inferior engine. You just aren't going to see a major developer take a chance on a 2d engine. I agree with you wholeheartedly about wanting a good turn based RPG, and I also will happily accept 2d graphics if that's the only option. I was just pointing out why it will not happen. From a business perspective, and Obsidian IS a business, they aren't going to invest resources in a project like this. We will continue to see budget titles with 2d turnbased combat (a la Geneforge and Spider (?) Software), but the days of high quality games like BG and Arcanum are over.

 

I'm not sure how well ToEE sold, but that fact is Troika went under. That doesn't bode well.

"1. I would hardly call TOEE ugly"

 

It was certainly passable.

 

 

"2. It didn't do badly, it remains troiki most profitable game from what I understand, it just took a long time to become a big seller."

 

It did do badly. Just ebcause it was the most profitable Troika game doens't prove much since Troika's games didn't do well financially. That's why they could no longer get hired.

 

 

"3. I would gladly sacrafice graphics for an honest to goodness turn base rpg. I don't understand why developers have become so obessed with real-time Rpgs esp for group game, or at the very least give us to option of playing the game in turn-based mode, ala arcanum."

 

Problem with TOEE is that turn base or not, the game sucked.

3. I would gladly sacrafice graphics for an honest to goodness turn base rpg. I don't understand why developers have become so obessed with real-time Rpgs esp for group game, or at the very least give us to option of playing the game in turn-based mode, ala arcanum.

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I think they keep going with the "real time" rpg's because they are trying to attract a larger player base. I don't see anything wrong with something like the original NWN and KOTOR games because you could play them like a real time game or you could set the game to pause between rounds like a turn based game. Both people should be happy with that. I just hope that companies don't try to do a sort of rpg/fps hybrid system like SOE did with Star Wars Galaxies in the NGE.

 

Let's keep RPG's more like RPG's and FPS'ers more like FPS'ers. They both have their place and are fun. But they don't need to be combined.

Or rather, let's keep making good games.

Or rather, let's keep making good games.

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Indeed. I don't care if a game sticks to old genre conventions or is some crazy hybrid, as long as it's good. And features ninjas.

 

As for real time, I don't think it's so much that developers think it's better, as it is viewed as the default.

"1. I would hardly call TOEE ugly"

 

It was certainly passable.

 

 

"2. It didn't do badly, it remains troiki most profitable game from what I understand, it just took a long time to become a big seller."

 

It did do badly. Just ebcause it was the most profitable Troika game doens't prove much since Troika's games didn't do well financially. That's why they could no longer get hired.

 

 

"3. I would gladly sacrafice graphics for an honest to goodness turn base rpg. I don't understand why developers have become so obessed with real-time Rpgs esp for group game, or at the very least give us to option of playing the game in turn-based mode, ala arcanum."

 

Problem with TOEE is that turn base or not, the game sucked.

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You should check the sales chart. TOEE did do well, however it was a slow burner, and it took a long time for troika to see that money, the same thing happened with looking glass studios.

 

2d TOEE was an amazing game, the best D&D i have ever played. That it the only D&D game i ever felt really captured the spirit of D&D, and how one actual managed tacital sitution. Dungeon crawls are fine with there is a deep combat system to support them, just a lesser combat system, ie, planscape, Neverwinter nights 2 or arcanum can be supported by a lesser combat system. However i think the TOEE's are better games than the BG's and the planscapes, because I can go to any bookstore, and find great stories of all kinds. it much harder to find a rewarding single player tactical roleplaying experience. which of course is why TOEE has never left of my computer.

Bg2 and PS:T are experiences - TOEE is one long tactical battle.

"You should check the sales chart. TOEE did do well"

 

Define 'well'.

 

 

"However i think the TOEE's are better games than the BG's and the planscapes"

 

I disagree. While it's combat system was really good, and definitelya rguably better than Aurora or IE combat; the combat itself was not that impressive because it was very simple, basic, and pretty boring.

 

Look at that. A bugbear! And, it's going striaght for the mage that's like 6 rounds away way in the back and it charges through the front lines. Look at that. The poor bugbear was chopped down before it even got half way to the mage. R00fles!

I think most people are in agreement that the combat was superbly implemented in ToEE. But the story was not very engaging. The sales were bad. No matter how you spin it, the sales put Troika in a bad spot. It doesn't matter what the number were or how it did in the long run, it turned out badly for Troika. That's the only thing that actually matters, particularly for the people who made the game.

"You should check the sales chart. TOEE did do well"

 

Define 'well'.

 

 

"However i think the TOEE's are better games than the BG's and the planscapes"

 

I disagree. While it's combat system was really good, and definitelya rguably better than Aurora or IE combat; the combat itself was not that impressive because it was very simple, basic, and pretty boring.

 

Look at that. A bugbear! And, it's going striaght for the mage that's like 6 rounds away way in the back and it charges through the front lines. Look at that. The poor bugbear was chopped down before it even got half way to the mage. R00fles!

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I take it you have never played a D&D before? the first rule of d&D is no matter the cost, kill the mages first, then the clerics. that why spring attack is so important in 3.5. this is why TOEE was the best d&D game, because it pretty accurately reflected all the great things about 3.5 D&D. which Neverwinter nights 2 does not do, however great the story.