NWN2: Forumite Impressions

[roshan]

I don't think you can target 'friendlies'. Something they borrowed from the overrated KOTORs (and JE).

 

If its possible later; ignore my mocking. :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that RPGS moving in this direction is NOT a good thing.

 

The IE games tended to punish people who killed innocents, but if you were careful you could get away with it. For example in Nashkel I would always kill Noober. The trick was to kill him in one swift blow without giving him the chance to turn hostile. You could also kill innocent people in isolated areas and as long as you didnt let your reputation get too low you could get away with it.

 

I hate the fact that freedom is being taken away from the players and I despise how games like the NWN expansion pack, NWN2 and the KOTOR series are treating players like children by coddling them through linear plots.

[taks]

See, this is my problem with your statement -- if my LCD requires it runs native(1680x1050) in order for it to look good and NWN2 has problems running at higher resolutions then how are you saying the problem isn't my monitor?

because the problem is with your video card's inability to run at that resolution with the options you choose (in NWN2 options panel). a monitor only displays what is fed to it.

 

If I had a smaller monitor I wouldn't be having these issues...apparently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nope, you probably wouldn't. at least, if you had a lower native resolution. the 20" LCD i'm usng right now has a 1280x1024 (also not standard 4:3) native, but my vid card can't drive that, so i backed it off and all the text looks funny. 1680x1050 is an odd native resolution, too. in order to drive that, the video card has to do some some interpolation/filtering, which only adds to the load. i can't comment on exactly how it does it, btw, as i'm not a driver programmer. unfortunately, the solution is to drop your resolution to a standard 4:3 aspect ratio, which then looks like crap on your monitor. it may be simply that somewhere in the game programming, non-standard aspect ratios are not well supported. dunno...

 

btw, looking around on the web, i see no mention of dynamic lighting or shadows with oblivion. that could easily be the so-called "bottleneck" with NWN2 and why oblivion runs better on your system (oblivion runs fair on mine, btw).

 

taks

Edited November 7, 2006 by taks

[Dark_Raven]

I don't think you can target 'friendlies'. Something they borrowed from the overrated KOTORs (and JE).

 

If its possible later; ignore my mocking. :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that RPGS moving in this direction is NOT a good thing.

 

The IE games tended to punish people who killed innocents, but if you were careful you could get away with it. For example in Nashkel I would always kill Noober. The trick was to kill him in one swift blow without giving him the chance to turn hostile. You could also kill innocent people in isolated areas and as long as you didnt let your reputation get too low you could get away with it.

 

I hate the fact that freedom is being taken away from the players and I despise how games like the NWN expansion pack, NWN2 and the KOTOR series are treating players like children by coddling them through linear plots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know it does suck. Almost like a form of censorship."We can't allow you to role play your character as total evil, that would be immoral."

Edited November 7, 2006 by Dark_Raven

[Setzer]

See, this is my problem with your statement -- if my LCD requires it runs native(1680x1050) in order for it to look good and NWN2 has problems running at higher resolutions then how are you saying the problem isn't my monitor?

because the problem is with your video card's inability to run at that resolution with the options you choose (in NWN2 options panel). a monitor only displays what is fed to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, and this is a NWN2 problem. It's a problem with the game not my hardware.

[Setzer]

I don't think you can target 'friendlies'. Something they borrowed from the overrated KOTORs (and JE).

 

If its possible later; ignore my mocking. :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that RPGS moving in this direction is NOT a good thing.

 

The IE games tended to punish people who killed innocents, but if you were careful you could get away with it. For example in Nashkel I would always kill Noober. The trick was to kill him in one swift blow without giving him the chance to turn hostile. You could also kill innocent people in isolated areas and as long as you didnt let your reputation get too low you could get away with it.

 

I hate the fact that freedom is being taken away from the players and I despise how games like the NWN expansion pack, NWN2 and the KOTOR series are treating players like children by coddling them through linear plots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know it does suck. Almost like a form of censorship."We can't allow you to role play your character as total evil, that would be immoral."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, because this ain't GTA people!

[Darque]

Another thing I like about this game is the terrain, it looks really cool.

 

And worlds better than the strange legoland of NWN1 :ph34r:

[taks]

i wonder if this is a result of the germany legal issue in which hasbro capitulated and sanitized all their games?

 

taks

[taks]

Yes, and this is a NWN2 problem. It's a problem with the game not my hardware.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

whatever. in the end, however, expecting this to perform the same as oblivion is a waste. the game is what it is, and if you want dynamic lighting and shadows, you're gonna have to accept the fact that the video card can't do it at the resolution you require.

 

taks

[Dark_Raven]

Another thing I like about this game is the terrain, it looks really cool.

 

And worlds better than the strange legoland of NWN1  :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NWN pales in comparision to the second game.

[Ellester]

btw, I just updated to the second patch by Obsidian (Good job, guys!!!!), which gives advice for settings when it comes to graphics.

[taks]

2nd patch already available? aahhhh... why do i have homework tonight. grrr. well, at least it's only 2 problems. unfortunately, i've already spent 10 hours on those two problems to no avail.

 

taks

[Dark_Raven]

That's nice. I have yet to get the first one.

[alanschu]

I hate the fact that freedom is being taken away from the players and I despise how games like the NWN expansion pack, NWN2 and the KOTOR series are treating players like children by coddling them through linear plots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Baldur's Gate is a linear plot. PS:T is a linear plot. Baldur's Gate 2 was a bit less linear, as you could choose to not do some stuff when it came to acquiring money to track down Imoen, but even then, the plot is still pretty linear. At least there were ways to go through parts differently, but these ways were similar to the small branches that a game like KOTOR or NWN2 has.

 

I'd also argue that the NWN plot is linear as well, as I don't particularly care for referring "Go get 4 things, but you can get the four of them in any order you want" as being particularly non-linear.

 

The only RPG with a non-linear plot I can think of off the top of my head is Ultima 7, where you could literally solve parts of the main plot in a vastly different sequence of events. Not optional, go wander off and do whatever you want (which I don't consider to be non-linear gameplay either, since it's essentially just extra exploration that has no bearing on the plot) type stuff, but actual plot related quests that helped unlock the mysteries going on in Brittania. Even Oblivion (what I have played so far) has a linear plot. It may open up a bit more, but all the "non-linear" stuff is just extra, not particularly related to the plot at all.

 

 

As for killing innocents, I don't particularly care. I never liked the wholesale slaughter of strangers in the older games because I thought it was not particularly punishing enough. And in games like Baldur's Gate, you can just run to the temple and buy back some reputation.

 

 

Yes, and this is a NWN2 problem. It's a problem with the game not my hardware.

 

 

I'm thinking he's referring to the comment that "the game looks horrible" that you made many pages ago when you switched out of your native resolution, which I would attribute more to your monitor as well, since the game looks pretty good to me at 1024x768.

[taks]

running out of native mode will obviously look different on different monitors. it's not too bad on the dell i'm using, by my primary development monitor, the samsung 213T, is almost unreadable in anything other than 1600x1200. that was another pounding headache. i've got another 213T at home, waiting for me to be working at home with a dual monitor setup (one winders and one linux) and i refuse to use it simply because my vid card won't do well at 1600x1200. oh well... the dang thing looks outstanding at native resolution, however.

 

taks

[Volourn]

FO did not have a linear plot.

 

And, no, NWN2's plot is much more linear than either BG2, PST, NWN1, or even the KOTOR series. Thankfully, there's other things that make up for it that. At least in the first chapter.

[Darque]

2nd patch already available?  aahhhh... why do i have homework tonight.  grrr.  well, at least it's only 2 problems.  unfortunately, i've already spent 10 hours on those two problems to no avail.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow, second patch already?

 

My game seems to work fine, so I'll pass for now. :ph34r:

[roshan]

I don't think you can target 'friendlies'. Something they borrowed from the overrated KOTORs (and JE).

 

If its possible later; ignore my mocking. :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that RPGS moving in this direction is NOT a good thing.

 

The IE games tended to punish people who killed innocents, but if you were careful you could get away with it. For example in Nashkel I would always kill Noober. The trick was to kill him in one swift blow without giving him the chance to turn hostile. You could also kill innocent people in isolated areas and as long as you didnt let your reputation get too low you could get away with it.

 

I hate the fact that freedom is being taken away from the players and I despise how games like the NWN expansion pack, NWN2 and the KOTOR series are treating players like children by coddling them through linear plots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know it does suck. Almost like a form of censorship."We can't allow you to role play your character as total evil, that would be immoral."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dont think it has anything to do with morals. I think its because developers assume that the common gamer is stupid(and many of them actually are). They also want to make sure that anyone who plays the game is definitely going to beat it no matter what they do. Thus they eliminate all scenarios where the player may not be able to complete the game. The other alternative, which is to make the game so open ended that it is rare that people would screw up their chances of finishing costs a lot more time and money. Thus Bioware and Obsidian have decided to railroad players into largely linear plots and cut their freedom. I dont actually mind the linearity. But I do have an issue with limiting the freedom of players. These companies have gone so far that they have actually taken away the players ability to lose the game through any method except combat, and that too very rarely, with combat being really easy and with characters automatically resurrecting after battle! Computer games are being dumbed down whether we like it or not.

 

I think that their assumption about gamers is silly. The common RPG gamer is smart enough to figure out which characters are critical to the plot and will normally avoid killing them. They are also smart enough to know that massacreing people left and right is not going to help them beat the game. Thus the only situations where a player would indulge in such actions are if they are not interested in the plot and do not want to follow it and complete the game, or if they are just experimenting and fooling around with the game. (Ex: I wonder what this guy has in his inventory? Let me him and find out, then reload later! Ex2: I wonder if my druid is more powerful than main character X? Let me fight him!)

 

In the greater scheme of things this dumbing down of RPGs is a part of the leftist outlook, for which I have nothing but contempt and derision as it ends up dragging the entire human race down to the level of the least common denominator.

[roshan]

I hate the fact that freedom is being taken away from the players and I despise how games like the NWN expansion pack, NWN2 and the KOTOR series are treating players like children by coddling them through linear plots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Baldur's Gate is a linear plot. PS:T is a linear plot. Baldur's Gate 2 was a bit less linear, as you could choose to not do some stuff when it came to acquiring money to track down Imoen, but even then, the plot is still pretty linear. At least there were ways to go through parts differently, but these ways were similar to the small branches that a game like KOTOR or NWN2 has.

 

I'd also argue that the NWN plot is linear as well, as I don't particularly care for referring "Go get 4 things, but you can get the four of them in any order you want" as being particularly non-linear.

 

The only RPG with a non-linear plot I can think of off the top of my head is Ultima 7, where you could literally solve parts of the main plot in a vastly different sequence of events. Not optional, go wander off and do whatever you want (which I don't consider to be non-linear gameplay either, since it's essentially just extra exploration that has no bearing on the plot) type stuff, but actual plot related quests that helped unlock the mysteries going on in Brittania. Even Oblivion (what I have played so far) has a linear plot. It may open up a bit more, but all the "non-linear" stuff is just extra, not particularly related to the plot at all.

 

 

As for killing innocents, I don't particularly care. I never liked the wholesale slaughter of strangers in the older games because I thought it was not particularly punishing enough. And in games like Baldur's Gate, you can just run to the temple and buy back some reputation.

 

 

Yes, and this is a NWN2 problem. It's a problem with the game not my hardware.

 

 

I'm thinking he's referring to the comment that "the game looks horrible" that you made many pages ago when you switched out of your native resolution, which I would attribute more to your monitor as well, since the game looks pretty good to me at 1024x768.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dont really care that the plots are linear. Its mostly the coddling the players part that upsets me.

[alanschu]

FO did not have a linear plot.

 

And, no, NWN2's plot is much more linear than either BG2, PST, NWN1, or even the KOTOR series. Thankfully, there's other things that make up for it that. At least in the first chapter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Fallout is an excellent example that I had missed. It's definitely the most recent example.

 

NWN2's plot is more linear than BG2 and NWN1. BG2 had the "get the money" chapter 2, as well as the decision to either go straight to the underdark as well as go back up to the surface (off the top of my head). NWN's non-linearity was too small scale for my liking, but it at least was present.

 

But I find non-linear plots to be exceptionally rare.

 

 

I think that their assumption about gamers is silly. The common RPG gamer is smart enough to figure out which characters are critical to the plot and will normally avoid killing them. They are also smart enough to know that massacreing people left and right is not going to help them beat the game. Thus the only situations where a player would indulge in such actions are if they are not interested in the plot and do not want to follow it and complete the game, or if they are just experimenting and fooling around with the game. (Ex: I wonder what this guy has in his inventory? Let me him and find out, then reload later! Ex2: I wonder if my druid is more powerful than main character X? Let me fight him!)

 

I wonder if it was more to do with time constraints. Making the world react appropriately (or at least to Obsidian's standards) to you butchering random civilians may have been something that would have taken more time than they were allotted. It seemed like things were getting the axe down the stretch, and it's possible that they didn't want it to just be "attack person X, and person X fights back" type of stuff.

 

Because all the stuff you said about possibly losing the game can be taken care of by making plot related characters invincible.

 

At the same time, maybe they didn't want people to randomly kill people to see what inventory they had, only to have them reload if they didn't like the outcome.

Edited November 7, 2006 by alanschu

[Pop]

In the greater scheme of things this dumbing down of RPGs is a part of the leftist outlook

What.

[Cyric]

The only RPG with a non-linear plot I can think of off the top of my head is Ultima 7, where you could literally solve parts of the main plot in a vastly different sequence of events.  Not optional, go wander off and do whatever you want (which I don't consider to be non-linear gameplay either, since it's essentially just extra exploration that has no bearing on the plot) type stuff, but actual plot related quests that helped unlock the mysteries going on in Brittania.  Even Oblivion (what I have played so far) has a linear plot.  It may open up a bit more, but all the "non-linear" stuff is just extra, not particularly related to the plot at all.

 

Ok the only Ultima series I have played is Ultima 9. I haven't played Ultima 7 and am not certain how similar both games are.

 

However, when it comes to open ended, non linear game play very few games manage to pull it off. Attempting a game which is non linear such as the last two Elder Scroll games can be counter productive. Hence very few developers go down that path.

 

One game I would recommend for any one seeking open ended game play or rather a hybrid of open and linear ended game play is the very first in the Gothic series, Gothic 1. This game seamlessly melded the finer aspects of open ended game play with linearity towards the end.

 

Plus it is a truly brilliant game IMO.

 

 

PS: I refrained from mentioning MMO games such as WoW as they are not single player games. While they may not suffer from the limitations of most single player games their sin lies in a linearity of another kind. Grinding.

[alanschu]

From a plot related perspective, I'd wager not even the Elder Scrolls games are non-linear, which is what we were talking about: non-linear plots. I haven't played through the main plot of either Morrowind or Oblivion, but I don't remember approaching them from a different perspective.

 

They are more of an open sandbox game, with lots of quests in it (and a longer main quest).

Edited November 7, 2006 by alanschu

[roshan]

In the greater scheme of things this dumbing down of RPGs is a part of the leftist outlook

What.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are remarkable similarities.

 

1. Leftists want to ensure everyones welfare and to guarantee them a minimum standard of living no matter whether they have done anything to deserve it or not. Bioware and Obsidian want to make sure that all players will win the game no matter what they do.

 

2. Leftists try to dictate what people need to do with their money and try to let the state control and redistribute resources and industries. They try to dictate what people need to buy. Bioware and Obsidian tell players which creatures they can and cant attack.

 

These are but some of the parallels and should suffice for now. There are many more parallels between leftist political theories and the Bioware/Obsidian theory of RPG design.

[taks]

i don't think posters in these forums are very representative of the "common RPG gamer," btw. people in here tend to be a bit more serious about their games. i'd be willing to bet the common gamer does not have the patience for insta-death scenarios that most of us would reload 3 or 4 (or 20) times in order to get the win, and subsequently move on.

 

i've got a buddy that just bought NWN1. i walked him through the character creation since he's not 3E familiar. he has played the KOTORs, however. if he doesn't figure out the real-time with pause thing, for example, he'll get bored and shelve the game, guaranteed.

 

taks

[taks]

Ok the only Ultima series I have played is Ultima 9. I haven't played Ultima 7 and am not certain how similar both games are.

think of the two most opposite things in the world you can imagine, and that is how similar U7 and U9 are. even U8, mario ultima, is vastly different than either.

 

However, when it comes to open ended, non linear game play very few games manage to pull it off.

if there was ever i game i have played that was open-ended/non-linear, U7 would be it (i never got far with fallout or planescape, sorry). i'm not sure i ever finished the game, either. it's been so many years. commodore 64 was my platform.

 

taks