Bush changes justification for invasion of Iraq...

[Blarghagh]

The US is a democracy.

 

 

HAH!

 

HAHA!

 

HAHAHA!

 

hah...

[taks]

the US is a republic, volourn.

 

taks

[Volourn]

Meh. That's being technical. It's still very much a democracy in its basic principal - as in the people do have a say who gets elected even though it isn't one person = one vote.

[Blarghagh]

I don't think any country is a true democracy.

[metadigital]

the US is a republic, volourn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Dark Moth]

I am.  I'm complaining and for the next 12 to 16 years worth of elections I am not voting Republican.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there's a good idea. vote democrat (or republican for that matter) simply because you're "mad at the other side." why not vote for the best guy, regardless of affiliation?

 

i must say it is disappointing that the "best guy" was actually the lesser of two evils in both of the last two elections. in the end, it doesn't matter what party a candidate represents. people that strive to lead the country (at just about any elected level), are the types normal folks normally would not care to associate with. it takes a certain personality to do these things, one i'm not particularly comfortable with.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That might make sense, but you see, with Hades anything Republican = bad, regardless of the person they are. In most cases, we would call that attitude bigotry. Yet another reason why putting him on my ignore list was a smart decision.

[~Di]

*sigh* FINE ! 

 

I agree with you on alot of the points that you made especialy about being able to say that the war is wrong without fear of retribution from a sensitive combat vet, that being said, ALOT of people oppose the war simply because they are force fed into that line of thinking by parents, friends, (cough) forum members (cough). all some people hear is "2,701 soldiers killed", "52 killed in baghdad blasts" or "Soldiers investigated in rape/slaying of 15 yr old girl" and think, "ya know, im going to protest the war today". I by no means consider my self above being told what is right and wrong, after all, i am in the ARMY, but i do like to look at both sides of an issue before i make an opinion. The things ive seen over here is enough to want to give up on humanity alone when i see a WHOLE NATION oppressed by religious extremist who would rather kill a fellow country man because he is thinking about converting his religion, or suicide bomb an all girls school because they dont feel that women have the right to learn, no, i believe what we as the soldiers are doing here is right because weather we came here under false pretenses and accusations or not, this country is in need of serious help, both to get itself back on its feet and to avoid an all out civil war.....

 

Disclaimer:

1. I in no way intended to accuse anyone on this forum board of being close-minded or ill-informed.

      sub-clause 1a. Those of you who wish to hate mail, spam mail, or otherwise

            pretend to get really mad, may type thier next post in all caps because it

          means that i will be able to hear you better through my laptop screen and

          isint annoying at all  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey, I've been against the Iraq war since before there WAS an Iraq war, and for all the reasons that we are now seeing play themselves out today... because I believe that our primary target should be Al Qaeda and Afghanistan, which is sliding back to where it was before we haven't put enough troops there to finish the job; because a pre-emptive attack on a country that was no threat to us was, IMHO, something I did not believe my country should, or ever would, do; because I knew we'd destroy the damned country, opening it up to a flood of terrorists and a civil war; and because I knew our global reputation would plummet to that of a big, mean, scary bully. So tell me how wrong I was.

 

That said, I love my country even if I hate the current administration, and I'm frequently frustrated by the need media and others have to show only the bad stuff without even giving a mention to those heroic soldiers who do not rape and pillage, but instead build schools and try to help the Iraqi people. Soldiers are not to blame for foreign policy; they only enforce it. I get pretty obnoxious with those who try to portray all American soldiers as torturing rapists, and attempt to shut down as "propaganda" any attempt to show that most soldiers are brave and courageous people who really do try to help the people of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Dark Moth]

A little Iraq update here - Iraq's Christian minorities are starting to abandon the country due to the worsening extremist threat. This comes partly in response to the Pope's comments regarding Islam, when he called the religion things such as 'evil and inhuman'. In response,

 

In the northern city of Mosul, a priest from the Syriac Orthodox Church was kidnapped last week.  His church complied with his captors' demands and put up posters denouncing recent comments made by the pope about Islam, but he was killed anyway.

...

Several extremist groups threatened to kill all Christians unless the pope apologized.

 

Oh, the irony! Well, the people who do these things in the ME so far aren't doing themselves any favors by doing this. Responding violently to a Pope's comments and taking it out on worshippers is not a good way to change anyone's opinion or get them to respect your religion.

 

Hmm...maybe this should go in the 'crisis' thread. Colrom, remember this the next time you want to demonize the west for bullying the poor defenseless Muslims in the ME.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Dark Moth

[Judge Hades]

there's a good idea.  vote democrat (or republican for that matter) simply because you're "mad at the other side."  why not vote for the best guy, regardless of affiliation?

 

Tried that and it obviously didn't work so I am going to take a different approach.

 

i must say it is disappointing that the "best guy" was actually the lesser of two evils in both of the last two elections.  in the end, it doesn't matter what party a candidate represents.  people that strive to lead the country (at just about any elected level), are the types normal folks normally would not care to associate with.  it takes a certain personality to do these things, one i'm not particularly comfortable with.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I agree for the most part but the Republicans, as a whole, are particularly bad. More than the Democrats, the Republicans are the antithesis of my own beliefs and my own moral code. I just cannot in good conscience vote for any Republican any more.

[Judge Hades]

That might make sense, but you see, with Hades anything Republican = bad, regardless of the person they are.  In most cases, we would call that attitude bigotry.  Yet another reason why putting him on my ignore list was a smart decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For the most part, yes.

 

I am pro-choice, while the majority of Republicans want to eliminate choice.

 

I am for gay marriage and civil unions, while the majority of Republicans seek to discriminate against homosexuals by making a constitution admendment to make such unions illegal.

 

I am for a secular state, strengthening the separation of church and state for that is the only way to create a government and laws that are fair to all who is governed, while the majority of Republicans wants to make the US even more so a Christian only country. Last thing I want to do is live in a Christian version of Iran.

 

I am against wasting our resources on pointless wars, which this adminstration and most Republicans seem to enjoy.

 

I am for direct communication and action against countries who are proven to be threats to our sovereign state, such as North Korea, while it seems that the current administration refuses to have any direct talks with that nation which seems most of the Republicans back the president on.

 

I am for unrestricted stem cell research for the medical benefits will indeed help millions, but of course the majority of Republicans think that is "evil."

 

I don't see this as bigotry, Dark Moth, but a decision I have made because the Republican party, as a whole, cannot represent me in any form any more. I want the Republicans out of office, every office. From local government to the highest levels in the federal government, I do not want to see a single Republican. The way that is going to happen is if those who are fed up with the current ways things are running is to give full support to the Democrats until a viable 3rd party can step in and take the place of the Republicans while the Republicans go the way of the dodo.

 

It is time for forward thinking. It is time for social and scientific advancement. That is not going to happen with the Republicans in charge.

 

[rant]Also I think it is funny that Dark Moth thinks that I am a bigot, while Christianity has 2000 year history of putting to the sword or burning those who did not convert to their religion or submit to their standards of "good" living. We won't go into the genocides they have purposely caused over the centuries nor the current movements to sow hatred and treat certain minorities as second class citizens. Yes, I do have a particular hate for Christianity, Dark Moth. It is well earned.[/rant]

 

Dammit, Dark Moth, I am not suppose to do that! Grrr...

Edited October 17, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Judge Hades]

A little Iraq update here - Iraq's Christian minorities are starting to abandon the country due to the worsening extremist threat.  This comes partly in response to the Pope's comments regarding Islam, when he called the religion things such as 'evil and inhuman'.  In response,

 

In the northern city of Mosul, a priest from the Syriac Orthodox Church was kidnapped last week.  His church complied with his captors' demands and put up posters denouncing recent comments made by the pope about Islam, but he was killed anyway.

...

Several extremist groups threatened to kill all Christians unless the pope apologized.

 

Oh, the irony! Well, the people who do these things in the ME so far aren't doing themselves any favors by doing this. Responding violently to a Pope's comments and taking it out on worshippers is not a good way to change anyone's opinion or get them to respect your religion.

 

Hmm...maybe this should go in the 'crisis' thread. Colrom, remember this the next time you want to demonize the west for bullying the poor defenseless Muslims in the ME.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree. The stupidity of religious extremism knows no bounds.

[Colrom]

A little Iraq update here - Iraq's Christian minorities are starting to abandon the country due to the worsening extremist threat.  This comes partly in response to the Pope's comments regarding Islam, when he called the religion things such as 'evil and inhuman'.  In response,

 

In the northern city of Mosul, a priest from the Syriac Orthodox Church was kidnapped last week.  His church complied with his captors' demands and put up posters denouncing recent comments made by the pope about Islam, but he was killed anyway.

...

Several extremist groups threatened to kill all Christians unless the pope apologized.

 

Oh, the irony! Well, the people who do these things in the ME so far aren't doing themselves any favors by doing this. Responding violently to a Pope's comments and taking it out on worshippers is not a good way to change anyone's opinion or get them to respect your religion.

 

Hmm...maybe this should go in the 'crisis' thread. Colrom, remember this the next time you want to demonize the west for bullying the poor defenseless Muslims in the ME.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am well aware that people in the world do horrible evil things. I am sorry that you appear to imagine this particular case is a weapon to use against me.

 

With regard to the specific perpetrators of the crime they should be hunted down and dealt with according to the law.

 

With regard to the larger matter of relations among Chritstians and Jews and Muslims and such - one evil deed does not justify another.

 

My views in that regard are not changed.

[Judge Hades]

People have been using religion for thousands of years to justify violence against others, nothing new here.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Dark Moth]

I am well aware that people in the world do horrible evil things. I am sorry that you appear to imagine this particular case is a weapon to use against me.

 

With regard to the specific perpetrators of the crime they should be hunted down and dealt with according to the law.

 

With regard to the larger matter of relations among Chritstians and Jews and Muslims and such - one evil deed does not justify another.

 

My views in that regard are not changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issue is not about one evil deed justifying another. This is about the way you seem to blatantly ignore the atrocities committed by our enemies and repeatedly make the west and Christians look like the clear-cut bad guys in this situation. Thought you might like to see things from the other perspective.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Dark Moth

[Tigranes]

Sadly, the Western media doesn't help in providing that perspective.

[alanschu]

I'm sure the middle eastern media are the beacons of truth however.

[Tigranes]

The above post was sponsored by Dichotomy Inc.

[Colrom]

I am well aware that people in the world do horrible evil things. I am sorry that you appear to imagine this particular case is a weapon to use against me.

 

With regard to the specific perpetrators of the crime they should be hunted down and dealt with according to the law.

 

With regard to the larger matter of relations among Chritstians and Jews and Muslims and such - one evil deed does not justify another.

 

My views in that regard are not changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issue is not about one evil deed justifying another. This is about the way you seem to blatantly ignore the atrocities committed by our enemies and repeatedly make the west and Christians look like the clear-cut bad guys in this situation. Thought you might like to see things from the other perspective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am a Westerner and a Christian.

 

I don't see Arabs and Muslims as "our enemies".

 

I am no more inclined to characterize all Westerners and Christians and Jews as "bad guys" than I am to characterize all Arabs and Muslims as "bad guys".

 

You appear to be stuck in an "us versus them" way of thinking.

 

The "us versus them" framing has its merits in some situations, but it has serious limits too.

 

By its nature the "us versus them" framing tends to encourage continuing violence.

 

I think looking in a mirror is a useful curative treatment.

 

You should try it yourself. :D

[Judge Hades]

I place Muslims and Christians in the same boat, right along with the Jews. For each religion spouting that they are the beacon of goodness and peace they awfully kill each other a lot for stupid reasons.

[Judge Hades]

Here is another reason to remove the Republican party from any sort of political party.

 

George W. Bush has stripped the basic human rights of detainees by signing a bill that strips the federal courts of jurisdiction to hear petitions from detainees for writs of habeas corpus, meaning that terror suspects cannot go to court to challenge the constitutionality of their confinement. This is bloody ridiculous. It also not just effect detainees but all noncitizens residing in the US. That includes the 12 million LEGAL immigrants that have residency in this country.

 

This is a backhanded response to the Supreme Courts decision in the Hamdan versus. Rumsfeld case which invalidated the the tribunal system that Heir Bushie tried to set up. The Supreme Court stated, and I agree with them, that terror suspects are to be treated in accordance of the Geneva convention. Innocence till proven guilty, Bushie.

 

Now you are probably wondering why I am blasting the entire Republican party on this. Well, lets take a look here who passed this bill for our esteemed president to sign. The senate passed the bill 65 to 34 with the Houese 253 to 168. Only two Republicans from the Senate did not vote yes to this this gross trampling of human rights. One voted no with the other abstaining. Of the 12 Democrats from the Senate who crossed party lines on this I hope they catch hell from their constituents.

 

So, Republicans are for taking away our rights. Just bloody lovely. Another reason not to vote Republican. For those who are curious here is the bill, now law, in question: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c109...emp/~c109R5uBeN

Edited October 18, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Dark_Raven]

I place Muslims and Christians in the same boat, right along with the Jews.  For each religion spouting that they are the beacon of goodness and peace they awfully kill each other a lot for stupid reasons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Know the Way. Me thinks the Far East religions like Buddahish are far more peaceful. Not too many of them are blowing each other up for <insert reason here>.

[Judge Hades]

I like buddhism. When was the last time the buddhists went on a crusade to kill and forcibly convert people? When was the last time the buddhists use car bombs and behead journalists? When was the last time that a buddhist came knocking at my door trying to force literature down my throat?

 

Never as far as i can tell. Buddhism is a very nice religion.

[kirottu]

Buddhism has bloodshed in it

[Dark Moth]

I am a Westerner and a Christian. 

 

I don't see Arabs and Muslims as "our enemies". 

 

I am no more inclined to characterize all Westerners and Christians and Jews as "bad guys" than I am to characterize all Arabs and Muslims as "bad guys". 

 

You appear to be stuck in an "us versus them" way of thinking. 

 

The "us versus them" framing has its merits in some situations, but it has serious limits too.

 

By its nature the "us versus them" framing tends to encourage continuing violence. 

 

I think looking in a mirror is a useful curative treatment. 

 

You should try it yourself.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please spare me your patronizing and your ad nauseum use of emoticons. I don't need you giving me advice or frowning on me because you think I'm in an 'us vs them' mentality. You'll also note I never said that Muslims and Arabs as a whole are our enemies. So don't try to put words in my mouth. I read about what happens overseas. I read about what we do and what they do, and I look at past events as well as future events. And I know enough to know who the 'good guys' and 'bad guys' are in this situation. So please take your self-righteous attitude and put it where the sun doesn't shine. I call it like I see it, and in almost all topics dealing with issues like this, you have repeatedly and rather blatantly seemed to make the west look like the ones at fault for everything that's going wrong in the ME while ignoring the wrongs committed by our enemies. The bias you show is almost laughable. I figured you could use a little perspective on the situation before you go pointing fingers. After all, the truth is out there, right? Thought you might like some for yourself.

[metadigital]

Let's debate the topics and not the people, people.