BioWare on the 'Broken' Game Industry

[Morgoth]

Well, I just think that the use of a third dimension can give players a greater sense of freedom and more strategic options in combat.  In PnP DnD one of the most useful spells in combat is the Fly spell and used in conjuction of Reduce and Improved Invisibility it can have a devastating effect on both the enemy and the PCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure every designer can tell you 1000 reasons why it wouldn't make sense (or unpredictable difficulties) to do such thing in a game where you click around like crazy. And I just don't mean camera problems alone.

Jumping/Flying makes lots of fun when I have full control about my character, like Tribes Vengeance (jetpack mayhem!!!), but in find that kind of things rather banal in a party based RPG that's supposed to be a spiritual successor of BG. In such a game, I expect the focus being on tactical combat, character interaction and a story that blows my socks off.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Morgoth

[Llyranor]

I'd be more concerned about Bioware figuring out how to improve their storytelling/writing.

 

Hades, this game was made just for you:

[Judge Hades]

Why would having z axis detract from that, Morgoth? You already moving the party in two axis points, how would using a third diminsh the strategic aspects of combat in the game?

 

Of course, when I am trying to have a serious conversation about these matters there are those who still just want to poke fun and harass me.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Morgoth]

Why would having z axis detract from that, Morgoth?  You already moving the party in two axis points, how would using a third diminsh the strategic aspects of combat in the game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How? Tactic in such games is based on stats, not environments. They don't play any role at all.

[Judge Hades]

Actually it is should be a combination of both on the character's abilities and the environment he finds himself in. Such as one wouldn't use the same tactics in a dense forest terrain as you would in a swamp or an enclosed sewer.

[Arkan]

Why would having z axis detract from that, Morgoth?  You already moving the party in two axis points, how would using a third diminsh the strategic aspects of combat in the game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How? Tactic in such games is based on stats, not environments. They don't play any role at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Maybe that's the problem?

[Judge Hades]

Arkan hits it on the nose.

[Morgoth]

Actually it is should be a combination of both on the character's abilities and the environment he finds himself in.  Such as one wouldn't use the same tactics in a dense forest terrain as you would in a swamp or an enclosed sewer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, first of course, I want to set straight that I'm not 100% sure Bio has denied such features, but they've put them onto lower priority.

I remember playing Praetorians (Tactical RTS) where environmental circumstances like height, or being in a corn field and getting shot with an fire arrow, or crossing a river (slows down) added lots of tactical depth, and since RTS are basically "2D" games too, I'd agree this could work in an RPG as well. But Bio would have to match the balance, and offer skills for that. Maybe they consider that, but the leader Dave Gaider is a dinosaur who doesn't let himself inspire by other games so chances are pretty low.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Morgoth

[Judge Hades]

True enough. Gaider tends to reuse old concepts with minor improvements/changes than innovate. In some cases it is a drawback but in others it is a good thing.

[Morgoth]

As long as the overall concept is polished and feature complete (!!!), I'll be happy. Too much games these days get churned out which have good ideas but bad execution.

Bio games may not have the best ideas, but at least they are polished and done.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Morgoth

[Judge Hades]

Like I said, sometimes its a drawback and other times its a good thing. Here's hoping that Obsidian "finishes" NWN 2.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Hassat Hunter]

Why would having z axis detract from that, Morgoth?  You already moving the party in two axis points, how would using a third diminsh the strategic aspects of combat in the game?

 

Loads of ways. Is X supposed to be able to hit something of height Y? Archers might be able to hit, but meleers cannot hit high flying things. How does "fly over the melee front and attack the mages in the back" sound like a strategic change to you?

Not to mention new ways to cross maps. If you fly you might just hit all those vital trigger thingies nicely planted to make the story work out? Do they have to make MASSIVE trigger zones? wouldn't that allow far more errors if hit wrong (which can be easier if there is more to hit)?

 

Besides that I have no idea how jumping could alter combat... or add anything but uselessness... And uselessness is usually seen as a bad thing, no?

[Judge Hades]

Jumping comes useful if you are fleeing combat and some big nasty can't jump as far as you or you are trying to climb to a better vantage spot. I am not saying adding a Z axis would be easy but I think it would add a new level in gameplay omplexity that would be loads of fun.

[Hassat Hunter]

What is wrong with a 2 Axis animation for that?

Like a tiger leap attack?

 

Anyways... it would add a bit to the gameplay; and a LOT of hell for developers...

(and than not just graphics/viewdistance/LOD-wise)

[Morgoth]

Anyways... it would add a bit to the gameplay; and a LOT of hell for developers...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly, that's why it's smarter to take the best elements from already established genres instead of shoe horning some experimental stuff into a dinosaur concept.

Depth of an RPG with the combat depth of a modern FPS? Play Deus Ex, or to some degree, System Shock 2.

And Bioshock will follow and revolutionize anything anyways.

 

Man, I sound like a PR whore. :D

[J.E. Sawyer]

In Final Fantasy Tactics elevation was a huge part of the game. Of course, motion in that game was also really just on a 2D plane.

[Judge Hades]

Exactly, that's why it's smarter to take the best elements from already established genres instead of shoe horning some experimental stuff into a dinosaur concept.

Depth of an RPG with the combat depth of a modern FPS? Play Deus Ex, or to some degree, System Shock 2.

And Bioshock will follow and revolutionize anything anyways.

 

Man, I sound like a PR whore.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let the dinosaur die and come up wih a new concept then. I am not saying to have a combat depth of a FPS. It still needs to be a CRPG butmake allowances for full 3D combat and positioning.

[Calax]

In Final Fantasy Tactics elevation was a huge part of the game.  Of course, motion in that game was also really just on a 2D plane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and yet the only other game that makes good use of terrain advangage was Starcraft... generals just kinda ignored it (sight bonus was it) and Warcraft ignored it for the most part.

 

:sighs in resignation:

[Deraldin]

In Final Fantasy Tactics elevation was a huge part of the game.  Of course, motion in that game was also really just on a 2D plane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and yet the only other game that makes good use of terrain advangage was Starcraft... generals just kinda ignored it (sight bonus was it) and Warcraft ignored it for the most part.

 

:sighs in resignation:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Terrain Advantage = Slightly better sight/target range and slight 25% miss chance for units on lower elevation? I can't think of anything else that Starcraft offered in terrain. Is that what you are referring to when you say terrain advantage?

[Darque]

That's still what I'd call an advantage

[Deraldin]

That's still what I'd call an advantage

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes but if that's all that he's talking about, I can think of several other games that also offer the same advantages. Emperor: Battle for Dune is one.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Deraldin

[Judge Hades]

Another thing that can add to a game besides z axis is destructable terrain. Maybe its just me but when a mage casts fireball in a forest it should cause a major forest fire.

[alanschu]

Jumping comes useful if you are fleeing combat and some big nasty can't jump as far as you or you are trying to climb to a better vantage spot.  I am not saying adding a Z axis would be easy but I think it would add a new level in gameplay omplexity that would be loads of fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would you have the reflexes and timing to pull that off?

[Judge Hades]

Don't know till I try and they could always make the game *GASP* turn based.

[Calax]

Jumping comes useful if you are fleeing combat and some big nasty can't jump as far as you or you are trying to climb to a better vantage spot.  I am not saying adding a Z axis would be easy but I think it would add a new level in gameplay omplexity that would be loads of fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would you have the reflexes and timing to pull that off?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your talking about a guy who can't get away from the blasted warewolf.