exile jedi

[Darth Blivion]

Revan is LSM, Exile is LSF, other versions of their characters are just as canon as N-canon aka infinite stories in which there is stupid robot-Darth Mauls and other ****

 

 

And as I stated above, Kyle Katarn could be Darksider too...but he isn't, because canonically he is LS. Same thing is with Revan & Exile

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You haven't really offered a sensible argument here. The droid guide book doesn't add to or change the story in Kotor, so "canoninizing" a character off of that, really doesn't hold any water, as a defined character is not required for a droid guide book. So the jury is still out on that. I don't think LA would stand in the way of an authors use of the word "heroine". Why? It doesn't change or add to the Exile's story i.e. it doesn't affect anything ultimately, it's not continuity in other words.

 

Lastly, to compare the variations in playthroughs to infinite stories isn't logical. An infinite story is an AU story arch - a dark side playthrough or male/female playthrough are anything but AU stories. They are very much a possibility within the universe the story is being told in. Very different circumstances here.

 

If you don't understand the a ds resolution, male and female playthrough "happened", for the mere fact that they exist and are viable stories for continuity, then we shouldn't be having any disagreement.

 

Because we are not disagreeing around the same points.

[Darth Blivion]

Also the Kyle Katarn example doesn't change much. The ds playthrough could have been used as well. Their isn't any natural order here that determines what is or isn't "canon", it's merely LA's choice. Besides, Katarn has a single defined identity whether or not he fell to the dark side can be easily determined by a single choice.

 

The Exile and Revan have several possible appearances, have sexually androgenous names, each have four playthrough options (rather than 2). It's just a whole different situation. In one case there is very little to disagree over as the character model and identity are singular with 2 varied alignments, the second case has 2 characters who in their design were meant to be undefined.

 

And as someone above said, it's the authors who make these choices, all LA does is aprrove the story, I don't think LA can/should refuse to licence a story or book simply because the author chose to use one gender or alignment over another for their character/s. So I believe that authors can override previously "canonized" versions of intially undefined characters.

 

Again it doesn't matter to me whether or not they say this version of the Exile or Revan is "canon", as long as it is not assumed that the other options and alignments didn't "happen" or don't count.

[Enha_Dyone]

Coming back to the topic : have some questions

 

The_architect you said that :

"The Exile gave the order to activate the Mass Shadow Generator, which ended up crushing both the Republic soldiers and the Mandalorians that were caught in the weapons destructive sphere."

Where is it said? I know that at the end the Exile activate the Mass Shadow Generator but didn't know he actually did it before!

[Xard]

Oh, yeah...Forgot about the whole permission thing. Of course that would be the only thing standing in the way of rewriting canon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And when LA last time rewrited canon... "

 

Especially LA doesn't like DS "versions", so it is damn unlikely (read impossible), that we'll ever see anything but lightside characters as canonical versions.

 

edit: Heck, CANON CHARACTERS ARE BECAUSE OF THE ****ING CONTIUNITY! AND YES, NO OTHER VERSIONS OF THEIR CHARACTERS OR STORYPATHS EXISTS IN C-CANON (in G-canon Kotors doesn't exist at all). There isn't multiple Revans or multiple Exiles running around like halfmad star wars fans. For example, canonically Revan saves the renegade sith students in k1. However, if all versions were true, (s)he would save them AND kill then at the same time. You see the contiunity error here?

 

Damn it <_<

Edited August 9, 2006 by Xard

[vaxen83]

Yes, canon isn't always sensible to follow all the time. Seems more like some sort of convoluted way of seeing things. So, instead DS is placed as an alternative path of story. Strange, somehow.

[Darth Blivion]

Oh, yeah...Forgot about the whole permission thing. Of course that would be the only thing standing in the way of rewriting canon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And when LA last time rewrited canon... "

 

Especially LA doesn't like DS "versions", so it is damn unlikely (read impossible), that we'll ever see anything but lightside characters as canonical versions.

 

edit: Heck, CANON CHARACTERS ARE BECAUSE OF THE ****ING CONTIUNITY! AND YES, NO OTHER VERSIONS OF THEIR CHARACTERS OR STORYPATHS EXISTS IN C-CANON (in G-canon Kotors doesn't exist at all). There isn't multiple Revans or multiple Exiles running around like halfmad star wars fans. For example, canonically Revan saves the renegade sith students in k1. However, if all versions were true, (s)he would save them AND kill then at the same time. You see the contiunity error here?

 

Damn it <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are looking at the sitaution way too literally. You have to look at the stories having significance to continuity either way. Any of the story archs at this stage could be used in continuity, as there hasn't been any continuity for Revan and the Exile (thus far) beyond Kotor 2.

 

So the jury is still out. A single defined character could be used in an official magazine or guide book but if it lacks a continuity story to go along with the reference, its use doesn't change anything about the character. LA can choose to call it "canon", but as far as I'm concerned, without a continuity story, "canonizing" doesn't change anything about what the Kotor games have established.

[Purgatorio]

Yes, canon isn't always sensible to follow all the time. Seems more like some sort of convoluted way of seeing things. So, instead DS is placed as an alternative path of story. Strange, somehow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strange because they're lacking in grey matter.

Canon is the death of creativity and why does it matter anyway? Just don't read it ,it's just someone trying to sell a story. It's not like it is the bible ,unequivocal fact . Is that where the term CANON CAME FROM...Well then in that case it's has no value whatsoever.{ Dances around pile of burning books}.

[Xard]

Oh, yeah...Forgot about the whole permission thing. Of course that would be the only thing standing in the way of rewriting canon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And when LA last time rewrited canon... "

 

Especially LA doesn't like DS "versions", so it is damn unlikely (read impossible), that we'll ever see anything but lightside characters as canonical versions.

 

edit: Heck, CANON CHARACTERS ARE BECAUSE OF THE ****ING CONTIUNITY! AND YES, NO OTHER VERSIONS OF THEIR CHARACTERS OR STORYPATHS EXISTS IN C-CANON (in G-canon Kotors doesn't exist at all). There isn't multiple Revans or multiple Exiles running around like halfmad star wars fans. For example, canonically Revan saves the renegade sith students in k1. However, if all versions were true, (s)he would save them AND kill then at the same time. You see the contiunity error here?

 

Damn it <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are looking at the sitaution way too literally. You have to look at the stories having significance to continuity either way. Any of the story archs at this stage could be used in continuity, as there hasn't been any continuity for Revan and the Exile (thus far) beyond Kotor 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No the ****ing jury is not still out. Canonical characters are already set, and why? BECAUSE IF AUTHOR OR SOMEONE ELSE WANTS TO USE EXILE AND REVAN IN THEIR FUTURE SW-WORKS, THEY'LL KNOW which one to use. Heck, just because Revan/Exile have only appeared in Kotor's doesn't mean that canonical characters can't be set already. (besides, Revan appears in Shadows & Light too, though only in vision and... well, those who had read it knows what I mean... )

 

That droid book is as true as any other SW-source, and as Exile is stated to be LSF in it, IT ****ING IS SO, no matter what <_<

Edited August 9, 2006 by Xard

[Darth Blivion]

Well I'm here to tell you that nothing has been set in stone. In shadow and light Revan is depicted with a mask, once again deliberatelty potrayed in an androgenous fashion. The Exile is referred to as a "heroine" in a droid guide book, unless you want to argue that this is some kind of continuity, then nothing is as yet set in stone.

 

No continuity = "canon" redundancy. Hence the reason why the jury is still out on both Revan and the Exile.

[Xard]

Revan is having mask because his appereance has not been decided, propably won't ever be.

 

If you haven't noticed it that if you say in K2 in that conversation with Atton "I don't care about Revan" game then sets Revan to be the canonical one, LSM.

 

So yes, it is set.

 

And how that "heroine" isn't contiunity? <_<

 

That seems to be the problem here. You ignore the Droid book totally

[Darth Rexon]

Before kotor 1. :cool: :ph34r:

[Darth Blivion]

Revan is having mask because his appereance has not been decided, propably won't ever be.

 

If you haven't noticed it that if you say in K2 in that conversation with Atton "I don't care about Revan" game then sets Revan to be the canonical one, LSM.

 

So yes, it is set.

 

And how that "heroine" isn't contiunity? <_<

 

That seems to be the problem here. You ignore the Droid book totally

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not continuity. How has that added to the Kotor 2 plot or the character development or anything remotely relevant to what we know from Kotor 2? It hasn't, hence the reason why the allocation of a "canon" Exile off a single droid guide book reference, is redundant.

[Wild Storm]

It's not continuity. How has that added to the Kotor 2 plot or the character development or anything remotely relevant to what we know from Kotor 2? It hasn't, hence the reason why the allocation of a "canon" Exile off a single droid guide book reference, is redundant.

Then do you say that Revan and Jaden Korr referred to as a "he/his" in a single New Essential Chronology redundant and not relevant?

 

It amazes me how Exile has caused so much problems while when Revan was made a male nobody said a word about redundancy and relevance. I'm not one to cry "sexism". And I hate people who do. I hate feminism and everything about it. But right now, it's crystal clear. This is just pure hypocrisy. And I'd say the same if the conditions were reversed.

Edited August 21, 2006 by Wild Storm

[Darth Blivion]

I wasn't on a messaage board when they made those decisions on Revan and Jaden. I've always been of the opinion that "canonizing" a character without offering any continuity, is redundancy, considering that "canonizing" is used for the sole purpose of future continuity for that particular undefined character.

 

The "canonizing" of Revan and Jaden again don't change anything unless they've made stories based on these "canon" versions. And even then an author can override these "canonized" characters if they choose to and LA accepts, which is something that isn't out of the realm of possibility.

[Darth Blivion]

Again, the only reason I'm debating this is because of the idea that "canonizing" is somehow supposed to make the alternative playthoughs irrelevant. I just can't accept that, when there isn't any continuity at present and when all the playthroughs can be options to be used for continuity.

[Xard]

I just can't accept that, when there isn't any continuity at present and when all the playthroughs can be options to be used for continuity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well duh!

 

This is the paradox that I pointed out. There can't be multiple Revan's in SW history, or Exile's! Especially in Revan's case ending must be LS, as in DS Revan crushed the Republic, and we know that Republic was not crushed until movie era. I use word crushed, as Revan was canonized before K2. K2 changed this however, as both "versions" of Revan left to unknown regions.

 

Canonical characters are only for contiunity. You may still play all Kotors as you want

[Purgatorio]

Multi Revanverse ,Quantum Physics seemed relevant with all the choices. Cannon is the Universe that is made fact ,by those that have the power and position to make such decisions.

Even if they do not deserve that power it must be accepted....until they are delt with by Carth's army of Emo Fan-Girls.

[Darth Blivion]

I just can't accept that, when there isn't any continuity at present and when all the playthroughs can be options to be used for continuity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well duh!

 

This is the paradox that I pointed out. There can't be multiple Revan's in SW history, or Exile's! Especially in Revan's case ending must be LS, as in DS Revan crushed the Republic, and we know that Republic was not crushed until movie era. I use word crushed, as Revan was canonized before K2. K2 changed this however, as both "versions" of Revan left to unknown regions.

 

Canonical characters are only for contiunity. You may still play all Kotors as you want

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

DS Revan never "crushed" the Republic. He "crushed" a single Republic fleet that assualted the Star Forge, the Republic had more fleets in the core worlds. Bastila mentions that their path to the core planets is open, but the war with the Republic would be far from over, even after that.

 

"Canonizing" is done for continuity (I know) but there hasn't been any continuity, so why the insistence on "canonizing"? Let whatever author who would like to use these characters, determine what is "canon". Throwing a "he" or "she" in a source book or droid guide book, doesn't mean anything in the end, without the continuity.

 

Ofcourse it doesn't affect how I choose to play Kotor (thank the heavens for that (w00t) ).

[Xard]

I just can't accept that, when there isn't any continuity at present and when all the playthroughs can be options to be used for continuity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well duh!

 

This is the paradox that I pointed out. There can't be multiple Revan's in SW history, or Exile's! Especially in Revan's case ending must be LS, as in DS Revan crushed the Republic, and we know that Republic was not crushed until movie era. I use word crushed, as Revan was canonized before K2. K2 changed this however, as both "versions" of Revan left to unknown regions.

 

Canonical characters are only for contiunity. You may still play all Kotors as you want

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

DS Revan never "crushed" the Republic. He "crushed" a single Republic fleet that assualted the Star Forge, the Republic had more fleets in the core worlds. Bastila mentions that their path to the core planets is open, but the war with the Republic would be far from over, even after that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is clearly stated that defeat at Star Forge would doom Republic. As DS, it was. Revan's infinite fleet would roll on and crush all resistance.

 

Revan's is military genious, Bastila has battle meditation, infinite fleet as is seen, is ****ing enormous, and defeat at Star Forge has destoyed nearly whole remaining Republic fleet.

 

It is stated that Bastila DS & Sith would be end of Republic. How is situation with Bastila, enormous sith fleet AND Revan? "

 

Kotor's are not only contiunity, you know. <_< In some ways droid book is contiunity too, and what is states is canon. If you don't remember, this same droid book set whole Goto vs. Remote thing among with Exile's gender. Unless you say Goto vs. Remote thing as it is droid book is not canon, you have no means to say that Exile being LSF is canon.

 

There is not YET any non-kotor Exile/Revan stories, however, when/if there'll be, they are going to use LSM & LSF, that's why canonical characters are stated quite early (well, in Exile's case, it took several years). However, I believe that'll we see atleast Revan in Kotor comics (in his robes & mask naturally), and characters are surely going to call him/her as HIM.

 

Canonized charaters don't lower value of your own characters.

[DAWUSS]

With Revan, the thing is, the name you gave him can stand because it's not Revan's name anymore and I doubt anyone will call him that name anymore. Most of the records that would include your given name (ie, Taris Swoop Champion, Taris Dueling Ring) are now lost or destroyed (and I guess Revan's records at Manaan and Tatooine have been broken [well Tatooine was never really an official race {IIRC} but still])

 

Now the Exile is a different story since the name you gave her is her actual name.

[Darth Blivion]

I just can't accept that, when there isn't any continuity at present and when all the playthroughs can be options to be used for continuity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well duh!

 

This is the paradox that I pointed out. There can't be multiple Revan's in SW history, or Exile's! Especially in Revan's case ending must be LS, as in DS Revan crushed the Republic, and we know that Republic was not crushed until movie era. I use word crushed, as Revan was canonized before K2. K2 changed this however, as both "versions" of Revan left to unknown regions.

 

Canonical characters are only for contiunity. You may still play all Kotors as you want

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

DS Revan never "crushed" the Republic. He "crushed" a single Republic fleet that assualted the Star Forge, the Republic had more fleets in the core worlds. Bastila mentions that their path to the core planets is open, but the war with the Republic would be far from over, even after that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is clearly stated that defeat at Star Forge would doom Republic. As DS, it was. Revan's infinite fleet would roll on and crush all resistance.

 

Revan's is military genious, Bastila has battle meditation, infinite fleet as is seen, is ****ing enormous, and defeat at Star Forge has destoyed nearly whole remaining Republic fleet.

 

It is stated that Bastila DS & Sith would be end of Republic. How is situation with Bastila, enormous sith fleet AND Revan? "

 

Kotor's are not only contiunity, you know. <_< In some ways droid book is contiunity too, and what is states is canon. If you don't remember, this same droid book set whole Goto vs. Remote thing among with Exile's gender. Unless you say Goto vs. Remote thing as it is droid book is not canon, you have no means to say that Exile being LSF is canon.

 

There is not YET any non-kotor Exile/Revan stories, however, when/if there'll be, they are going to use LSM & LSF, that's why canonical characters are stated quite early (well, in Exile's case, it took several years). However, I believe that'll we see atleast Revan in Kotor comics (in his robes & mask naturally), and characters are surely going to call him/her as HIM.

 

Canonized charaters don't lower value of your own characters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whatever could've, should've and would've happened didn't happen, plus it would have gone against established lore i.e that Palpatine was the first Sith to topple the Republic completely.

 

Kotor 2 soughts things out, so there is no problem with using DS Revan for continuity. And there isn't any "canon" unless it's used and established in a story. The stories are what bring these characters to life, without one everything stated about the characters is redundancy. It's called going ahead of "canon". It's not "canon" unless it counts. Without continuity nothing counts.

 

ADDED: And why coninue this argument? Nothing has been established outside of a few pronouns thrown around in Source Books and Droide Guide Books, with no continuity present. Once an established story is written or created based on these, undefined characters then we'll have something to really argue about. As of now, Kotor has established how these characters are perceived, and that's undefined.

Edited August 25, 2006 by Darth Blivion

[Xard]

I just can't accept that, when there isn't any continuity at present and when all the playthroughs can be options to be used for continuity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well duh!

 

This is the paradox that I pointed out. There can't be multiple Revan's in SW history, or Exile's! Especially in Revan's case ending must be LS, as in DS Revan crushed the Republic, and we know that Republic was not crushed until movie era. I use word crushed, as Revan was canonized before K2. K2 changed this however, as both "versions" of Revan left to unknown regions.

 

Canonical characters are only for contiunity. You may still play all Kotors as you want

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

DS Revan never "crushed" the Republic. He "crushed" a single Republic fleet that assualted the Star Forge, the Republic had more fleets in the core worlds. Bastila mentions that their path to the core planets is open, but the war with the Republic would be far from over, even after that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is clearly stated that defeat at Star Forge would doom Republic. As DS, it was. Revan's infinite fleet would roll on and crush all resistance.

 

Revan's is military genious, Bastila has battle meditation, infinite fleet as is seen, is ****ing enormous, and defeat at Star Forge has destoyed nearly whole remaining Republic fleet.

 

It is stated that Bastila DS & Sith would be end of Republic. How is situation with Bastila, enormous sith fleet AND Revan? "

 

Kotor's are not only contiunity, you know. <_< In some ways droid book is contiunity too, and what is states is canon. If you don't remember, this same droid book set whole Goto vs. Remote thing among with Exile's gender. Unless you say Goto vs. Remote thing as it is droid book is not canon, you have no means to say that Exile being LSF is canon.

 

There is not YET any non-kotor Exile/Revan stories, however, when/if there'll be, they are going to use LSM & LSF, that's why canonical characters are stated quite early (well, in Exile's case, it took several years). However, I believe that'll we see atleast Revan in Kotor comics (in his robes & mask naturally), and characters are surely going to call him/her as HIM.

 

Canonized charaters don't lower value of your own characters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whatever could've, should've and would've happened didn't happen, plus it would have gone against established lore i.e that Palpatine was the first Sith to topple the Republic completely.

Kotor has established how these characters are perceived, and that's undefined.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is exactly the reason why canonical Revan could not be DS.

 

"Kotor 2 soughts things out, so there is no problem with using DS Revan for continuity. And there isn't any "canon" unless it's used and established in a story. The stories are what bring these characters to life, without one everything stated about the characters is redundancy. It's called going ahead of "canon". It's not "canon" unless it counts. Without continuity nothing counts.

"

 

So you imply that if canonical "thing" (in this case Exile) is established in guide book it is not canon, but if it established in sucking eu-book, it is canon? Guide books (in this case, droid guide) are as their names implies guide books for Star Wars universe. They can't state false aka non-canon information in them, but in them canon may be created. Guide books has in no way lower value when determining than non-existant Kotor 3, or other eu-work like book, comic or animation serie. So "canon" is used and established "in a story", in this case droid guide book.

 

Oh, and this decisions surely counts, as they determine what kind of characters are referred in future eu-works, though I believe that they are going to be rare.

 

Oh, and if you didn't know, none of Baldur's gates, Icewind Dales or Neverwinter Nights are Forgotten Realms canon. Still these are very enjoyable and loved games, and I've personally played them many times. Even though they "did not happen" in "real" Faerun, it doesn't matter a bit, doesn't it? Other "versions" (LSF and LSM differs very little in both kotors. Same is with DSF and DSM, though difference between DS and LS is big naturally. Still calling these as "versions" is little bit stupid) of Revan and Exile, or should I say, other kinds of PC's are same as those games. Unlike in FR, in Star Wars you have to make canonical characters. If Kotor's would've been in some new scifi D&D setting, there would be no canonical characters, as they are not needed, as whole games are not canon

 

However, Kotors are part of eu and C-canon, so canonical characters are needed

[chenwong88]

I would just like to jump in and say, that while the writers of the stoyline for KotOR2 TSL may not have ment The Canonical character or w/e it's called to be Male, I'm pretty much certain looking at these glitch shots, that the Game developers, most certainly did, or at least wrote the male parts first

 

http://www.crimsonkeep.com/kotor2/displayi...?album=18&pos=0

 

http://www.crimsonkeep.com/kotor2/displayi...?album=18&pos=8

 

Seems the game developers were confused at the very least no? " You should definately go beat on them Xard, because they're definately putting a kink in your arguement (needless to say you can call them retards and dismiss it if you please, I wouldn't argue, because: well mainly? They left so many glitches and screwed up so royally in so many places <_< )

 

I just thought I might point out, that you shouldn't freak out on so many people for not knowing the canon state of the exile. Hell the game designers didn't even know, they at the very least wrote the game for the male first and used his triggers for the female's without changing them up, that's a little sign no? (what you do first in a story like this is normally the main thing right?) They seemingly liked/preferred the male character's story no? Being men (or that's my supposition that the mostpart of the developers were men, not to be sexist but rather to be a... "Statisticalist"? ) that might be a factor but still, you know eh? It's gotta hold at least a bit of weight (still, just dismiss them as retards, I am on the verge :cool: )

Edited August 26, 2006 by chenwong88

[Xard]

Game designers doesn't need to know what will be "canonical version" of their story. They just want to make good, enjoyable games

[Mellypie]

I would just like to jump in and say, that while the writers of the stoyline for KotOR2 TSL may not have ment The Canonical character or w/e it's called to be Male, I'm pretty much certain looking at these glitch shots, that the Game developers, most certainly did, or at least wrote the male parts first

 

<snip>

 

Seems the game developers were confused at the very least no?  " You should definately go beat on them Xard, because they're definately putting a kink in your arguement

 

Obsidian is the game developer, not the game publisher. That is LucasArts and it is them, not Obsidian, that decides what is canon and what is not. So whether Obsidian made the male version of the story first it is null and void and has absolutely no bearing on the argument at hand.