Civilian casualties in games

[Atreides]

Would/should it be feasible to consider moral issues in games, for example going out of your way to prevent civilian casualties?

 

Say you're spell slinging with the bad guy in town and there are people around (probably getting out of the way if they're smart) - should the player be careful or hold off fire just to avoid civilian casualties?

 

If the player does nail some people (or even if s/he doesn't but just by being there they drew out the villain who started firing) people would bitch about it and maybe even be hostile to the character (won't trade etc).

 

If so I hope it goes both ways. Say the player let the enemy get away or held on the "none of my business" or "violence breeds violence" route and the enemy came back and set up a device that devoured the town's souls or somethig.

 

Would you (player or dev) be interested in exploring such themes?

[Atreides]

Maybe this thread would be better in the PnP forum.

 

I just like makign twisted campaigns. Here's another one of my ideas:

 

The team has to solve a prob where the town's under attack from a necromancer (female) that abducts people and sends them in as reanimated zombies that explode - kind of like suicide bombers.

 

The way to fight them is probably shooting them from far so they don't blow up right in front of you. Then in one case a kid runs up to the players and says "DON'T KILL MY MOMMY" so the player has to kind fo like tell the kid that it ain't her mom anymore etc, that sometimes you have to sacrifice for the greater good blah blah.

 

If you don't stop them (take the pascifist route) the kid will run (arms open) to hug her 'mommy' (also open arms - zombie style in a heartwarming/wrenching scene) and get blown to bits in front of the player. I'd be sure to describe the heartwarming smile as she and her mommy embrace each other as they vanish in a blinding explosion to be united (after all) on the afterlife. Maybe I'll mention something about the player not being sure if you saw the zombie mom smile too as they were embracing.

[alanschu]

Well, there's concerns for innocent victims in games such as Splinter Cell and whatnot.

 

And you typically get lower scores in the Hitman games for killing people other than your target.

[Cantousent]

Yeah, but neither scenario sounds as detailed as Atreides initial premise. I think he's been getting into the ganga again, but the idea has some interesting qualities.

[Nartwak]

Would/should it be feasible to consider moral issues in games, for example going out of your way to prevent civilian casualties?

No, because escort missions are frustrating and tedious.

[Darque]

Hmm... interesting concept.. not completely sure about it though.

[ramza]

Well, at least in the IE games and NWN, I tried to prevent as much as possible to prevent "civilian" casualties. But actually, it depends on what you mean by "civilian".

 

I tried to protect as much as possible the soldiers who were assisting me when Targos was under siege (IWD2), or the apprentices in the NWN academy (NWN prologue). Even though this doesn't have any incidence in the game, I just feel guilty if I fail to protect them. I will reload till I manage to save most or all of them. In BG2, there were many occasions in which you interacted with NPCs that had no relevance in the story (I do remember the random encounters with vampires fighting against shadow thieves), there again I did my best to protect the NPCs (I always tried to save those helpless thieves).

 

I think this whole issue depends on each player's point of view on gaming. I just want to do a bit more than complete the quests. Even if it's in my imagination, I try to roleplay a bit.

[Fenghuang]

Would/should it be feasible to consider moral issues in games, for example going out of your way to prevent civilian casualties?

No, because escort missions are frustrating and tedious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Not if they're done right. Saving the pilots before calling in the Airstrike in Seoul (Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory) was awesome. First, you had to worry about the chaingun mounted on the tank, as well as the baddies walking around, and the flickering light you couldn't put out that put you right in their sights when it came back up. Also, the chatter between Fisher and Lambert while you were doing it was awesome. Lambert was pissed off because he was worried you'd get killed saving the knocked out pilots, and Fisher was being his usual hardass self.

 

Lambert: Nobody even knows you exist, you won't be getting any medals.

Fisher: Medals don't help me sleep at night.

 

It was entertaining, like listening to Lambert call Fisher a hippie while he was on the train.

[alanschu]

I remember letting a dude die in Pandora Tomorrow, and Lambert was none too pleased. He asked Sam about it, who let a witty remark go, and Lambert was certain Sam needed a psych evaluation.

[Nartwak]

Not if they're done right.  Saving the pilots before calling in the Airstrike in Seoul (Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory) was awesome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought Seoul was tedious.

 

I remember letting a dude die in Pandora Tomorrow, and Lambert was none too pleased. He asked Sam about it, who let a witty remark go, and Lambert was certain Sam needed a psych evaluation.

Lambert can be a priss. "Damn it Fisher, you stepped on a crack and broke your momma's back! This mission is over!"

Edited June 16, 2006 by Nartwak

[alanschu]

Chaos Theory is waaaaaaaay better for that.

[Atreides]

It doesn't need to be an escort mission or a war zone. I was thinking of a fight breaking out in the middle of a civilian setting.

 

The opening scene between Irenicus and the player's group in the Amn market would have been it, if only it was more central etc. Irenicus (badass as he is) would be throwing horrid wiltings around while the player might be hesitant to throw area of effect spells around, depending on their playstyle.

 

Ultimately the civilans themselves have no impact - none of them are essential NPCs though how you handle the situation would affect how the town or the guards interact with the player from then on.

 

Btw, the "suggest to kid that her mom's looking for her", getting the kid out of your face and taking down an exploding zombie would make an awesome evil path.

[Bokishi]

Splinter Cell Double Agent is supposed to have a situation where you either kill an innocent dude and save a million people, or don't.

 

[alanschu]

Seems Jack Bauer-ish.

[Bokishi]

I know it sounds like it's been done before.

[alanschu]

Jack Bauer-ish = good IMO

[Bokishi]

Well I think I'll go kill that hostage when I play

[Blank]

In the PS3 game called "Assasin's Creed" the player will be able to do things to get certain citizens of the town to like him. Go out of your way to save a miner, a group of miners conveniently steps in front of the guards chasing you after you kill a mark. On the other hand, if you are a jerk to the townspeople, they'll point to the guards where you are hiding in the crowd.

 

It sounds like it'll be a good game. But it is noteworthy in this thread because there is the concept that civilians can be affected by the player and consequently have effects on the player later.

 

Edit: I just read that "Assasin's Creed" won't be PS3 exclusive. YAY for me!

Edited June 16, 2006 by Blank

[Tigranes]

Will it come on PC? It looks excellent.

[Fenghuang]

Dude, it's Ubisoft.*

 

*It will come on every platform in existence, and possibly some that aren't.

[angshuman]

Dude, it's Ubisoft.*

 

*It will come on every platform in existence, and possibly some that aren't.

[Darth Drabek]

My favorite "civilian fight" was between the two philosophers in Trademeet (BG2).

 

"I hope you know I'm only being proven right, here."

[Judge Hades]

KILL'EM ALL!

 

BWAAHAAHAAAA! (w00t)

[LadyCrimson]

Past games have had hints of that, but nothing with that kind of detail. I personally think it should matter if civvies get killed from an attack you make. But then I tend to think of things like in Superman2 w/the Man of Steel crying "The peeopppleee!" when I play good characters - ie, good characters should care about the lives they're ultimately trying to protect. I mean, sure you can't avoid it every instance, but it should have some world-effect...either by affecting later quests (cause you killed a civvie's brother) or some kind of general whole.

 

So to answer the question - yes, I'd be interested in a game that explored such a theme...as long as it wasn't just 'escort me here while I trail behind you like an idiot' quests, like someone mentioned....which doesn't seem to be what you're thinking about, anyway.

[Calax]

well with the exploding zombie? I'd kinda poke it with a carrot, or have my party hold the kid while I put a bullet/arrow in its head.

 

 

but really civilian causualties require scale. I mean you can massacre populations with no problem in Civ but if you accidently misfire in Splinter Cell your pulled from the op. In A superman game or game of similar scale I'd expect the casualties to have an impact. In a game where you play as a leader the civvies wouldn't be that much of a problem, Up close and personal with a gun in a game and it's gotta be contextual.

 

Honestly I'm a bit bugged by the fact that civvies have no effect on empires when you commit wholesale slaugter of a town.