Want a new CRPG.

[Judge Hades]

That is why I am passing it by. I hated Diablo. Absolutely no story worth going through.

[Cantousent]

This is what always makes me shake my head. The backstory for Diablo was just as good as anything else out there. The problem wasn't that it lacked a story. The problem, at least from an RPG standpoint, was that the PC didn't have much control over the story other than to advance it. The dialogue wasn't poorly written. It's just that the dialogue has no impact on the game. It's there to tell you what's happening in the story.

 

I understand these complaints. What I don't understand are the folks who claim to like some games for their great "stories" and then turn around and deride Diablo because it didn't have a story. Frankly, the cut-scenes, dialogue, and voice acting is just as good for Diablo as it is for most games out there. Better than most, even.

[Volourn]

No. the problem with Diablo's story is that it means nothing. It ha ssouls. No purpose. The game is about combat; the story is just there as a tie in. It has no soul.

 

Just ask someone why they like Diablo.

 

Then ask someone why they like PST.

 

More often than not for Diablo it's the mass killing and combat. More often than not for PST it's the story and characters.

 

That's why people bash Diablo's story. It's because it is pretty much irrelevant to the game or the gamer.

 

Heck, let's take a game I like and more than a few here hate - the NWN OC. What do people usually complain about when hating on it? They dislike the story and characters is usually the prime targets. Those who like the OC (including me) tend to like the story and characters. That's why even if you hate NWN; youa re admitting that NWN's matters. The same cna't be said for Diablo's story. IT gives very few people any enjoyment from the game.

 

 

P.S. I like Diablo myself. Not a favorite of mine. But, you wanna know what I remember about the story? That your ultimate go is to kill Diablo after killing billions of his minions, and other monsters. WOWSERS!

 

 

Game over.

[Llyranor]

I'm getting Oblivion vibes

[Haitoku]

I'm getting Oblivion vibes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oblivion is the future of western RPGs ya know...

[Cantousent]

In every generation, it falls upon one of our number to attempt the impossible. This time, it has fallen upon me.

 

Vol, Diablo has a story. That's the truth. For the very reasons I cited, you don't remember the story. The story only serves as dressing for the gameplay. Nevertheless, if you'd cared to pay any attention to the story, you would have seen that there was a reason and purpose for how the NPCs acted. You would have seen that there was a recurring theme. Maybe, you might even have noticed that the cut scenes tied in very well to the action.

 

That folks tended to overlook the story because of their maddened rush to find more action does not, in any way, mean that the story didn't exist. Hell, the story in Diablo led directly to the story in Diablo 2 and the story in Diablo 2 led directly to the story in Diablo 2: LoD. Now, I know you to be contrarian. That's all well and good. ...But the fact remains, and you've done nothing to refute it, that Diablo had a story. IWD had a story. There's a difference between having no story and having one over which the player has some control.

[Volourn]

"Vol, Diablo has a story. That's the truth. For the very reasons I cited, you don't remember the story. The story only serves as dressing for the gameplay. Nevertheless, if you'd cared to pay any attention to the story, you would have seen that there was a reason and purpose for how the NPCs acted. You would have seen that there was a recurring theme. Maybe, you might even have noticed that the cut scenes tied in very well to the action"

 

The story was meaningless and meant nothing to the game. You trying to blame the player for 'not picking up on it' is the same sort of elitsm you accused Still Life.

 

Perhaps, the problem with Diablo's story is not that peopel didn't pick up on it; but because it sucked so bad it became so meaningless. In essence, it did *not* matter. The point of Diablo was never the story. That's a fact.

 

And, the npcs? Their dialogue was nothing more than the following: 'Go kill x' or 'Wanna buy something?'

 

*yawn*

 

 

Don't blame ME for Diablo's non existent story. To comapre Diablo's 'story' to IWD's is laughable beyond belief.

 

 

Now, back to your arrogance of blaming the player for Diablo's poor story telling skillz.

[Cantousent]

EDIT: Oh, screw it, I've had enough of Angry Eldar. He is henceforth banished. Vol and I have had enough threads closed. time for me to take the coward's way out and agree to disagree. Even though you did call me arrogant, you yutz.

Edited June 6, 2006 by Eldar

[LoneWolf16]

No, Eldar! That was an awesome argument you had there!

[Volourn]

It's all good Eldar. And, there's nothing 'cowardly' about doing it.

 

 

"Even though you did call me arrogant, you yutz."

 

Hey, it's a compliment! I'm as arrogant as they come!

[kirottu]

The story was meaningless and meant nothing to the game. You trying to blame the player for 'not picking up on it' is the same sort of elitsm you accused Still Life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Diablo II is about randomly generated dungeons, monsters and loot. This is all done for the sake of re-playability. You don

[Volourn]

"Diablo II is about randomly generated dungeons, monsters and loot."

 

Game over.

[LoneWolf16]

Actually. It did have a story, and it wasn't meaningless. It served the purpose of both advancing the game and giving the player even a slight sense of motivation to continue on.

[alanschu]

I think the story "loses meaning" because you play through it so many times.

 

Personally, I was interested in the story the first time I played through Diablo 2.

[Cantousent]

I'm actually pretty bad about reading dialogue on subsequent plays. I mean, unless it's one of those great lines that I look forward to reading again, I just click past the fluff on all replays. That's for all games, though.

[alanschu]

Agreed. I don't really re-read anything when replaying KOTOR or BG, because I know what's being said. I only stop for the parts that I know will be different.

[StillLife]

The motivation: kill demon #1, kill demon #2, kill demon #3, and for the finale, kill big scary demon #4 who's posessed the body of the last hero who was a genius and decided to try to contain big scary demon #4 in his body.

[LoneWolf16]

The motivation: kill demon #1, kill demon #2, kill demon #3, and for the finale, kill big scary demon #4 who's posessed the body of the last hero who was a genius and decided to try to contain big scary demon #4 in his body.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...Or to save the mortal plane from the forces of hell?

 

And I agree that was a dumb plot point...frankly, the guy deserved what he got if he was stupid enough to do that.

[StillLife]

...Or to save the mortal plane from the forces of hell? 

 

And I agree that was a dumb plot point...frankly, the guy deserved what he got if he was stupid enough to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ordinarily I like Chris Metzen's stuff for Blizzard games and think he's one of the better writers in the game industry, but it was obvious not too much effort went into the Diablo's plots IMO.

[Guest Cantousent]

Let me try to address this. SL, the problem with trivializing the story in such a way is that any critic can use the same tactics on any story.

 

You know, this diablo argument has taken on a life of its own within the larger thread. These things happen, I know. ...But your point has always been, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that Diablo presents a style of gameplay that you find unpalatable. Furthermore, you see this same style of gameplay, which is the antithesis of your vision of a CRPG, taking hold in the market as a whole. Because of that, you're upset. This is, after all, one of your favorite hobbies and Diablo, to get a little "dramatic," represents a danger. I understand that.

 

Since that's the case, it's only natural that you look unkindly upon others who enjoy Diablo style gameplay. These consumers are the force ushering in a significant change in the genre, and that change, from your perspective, is for the worse.

 

So far, I agree you have a point. It makes sense to argue with folks when it comes to your favorite passtime. When someone provides the incentive that results in unwanted change, then you must speak out against it.

 

However, where I disagree with you is the tactic of trivializing Diablo's story. Was it good or not? Who knows? That's for someone else to decide, but involves more than killing demon #1, demon #2, etc. ...Or, to put it another way, if we boil down Diablo's story in such a manner, we can boil down most major works of literature in the same way.

[alanschu]

Wasn't PS:T merely (1) Discover you can't die, and have amnesia. (2) Learn about your past (3) confront your past?

 

 

Fallout 1 was merely (1) Your home people are in danger (2) save your home people (3) Go one step further and save teh whole world by killing teh evil mutants.

 

Fallout 2 was (1) Your home people are in danger (2) save your home people (3) Find out your home people were kidnapped, so go one step further and save teh whole world by killing teh evil Enclave.

 

Baldur's Gate (1) Mentor dies...you are sad (2) Realize that people insist on trying to kill you (3) Find out source of those sending people to kill you (4) Kill that person

 

Baldur's Gate 2: (1) Childhood friend gets kidnapped...you are sad (2) Realize that people insist on trying to kill you. (3) Find the source of that which tries to kill you (4) Kill that person.

 

This is kind of fun actually

Edited June 6, 2006 by alanschu

[213374U]

Wasn't PS:T merely (1) Discover you can't die, and have amnesia.  (2) Learn about your past (3) confront your past?

 

 

Fallout 1 was merely (1) Your home people are in danger (2) save your home people (3) Go one step further and save teh whole world by killing teh evil mutants.

 

Fallout 2 was (1) Your home people are in danger (2) save your home people (3) Find out your home people were kidnapped, so go one step further and save teh whole world by killing teh evil Enclave.

 

Baldur's Gate (1) Mentor dies...you are sad (2) Realize that people insist on trying to kill you (3) Find out source of those sending people to kill you (4) Kill that person

 

Baldur's Gate 2: (1) Childhood friend gets kidnapped...you are sad  (2) Realize that people insist on trying to kill you.  (3) Find the source of that which tries to kill you  (4) Kill that person.

Yep, you got the basics laid down. Only along the way, the plot was to some degree, depending on the game, affected by the player. Also, the story was delivered in little bits in each and every conversation the player engaged in. This requires a much greater depth of writing, as immersion depends on details as much as it does on some narrative broad lines. None of that is true for Diablo, where plot advancement occurs via prerendered cutscenes at the end of each chapter, and the occasional "OMG demons have infested my closet!" conversation. In the Diablos, the actors are flavorless, 100% generic. And it's the actors that imprint the game with a personality. Diablo had a story, alright. But it was definitely not one of its strong points.

[Volourn]

The difference between those games and Diablo however is that in those games the story mattered; in Diablo it doesn't.

 

I doubt one person can honestly say they played Diablo for the story. Not one.

[alanschu]

I don't disagree with the Vol or the guy that's too elite for me.

 

I just thought I'd give it a try

[StillLife]

Let me try to address this.  SL, the problem with trivializing the story in such a way is that any critic can use the same tactics on any story.

 

You know, this diablo argument has taken on a life of its own within the larger thread.  These things happen, I know.  ...But your point has always been, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that Diablo presents a style of gameplay that you find unpalatable.  Furthermore, you see this same style of gameplay, which is the antithesis of your vision of a CRPG, taking hold in the market as a whole.  Because of that, you're upset.  This is, after all, one of your favorite hobbies and Diablo, to get a little "dramatic," represents a danger.  I understand that.

 

Since that's the case, it's only natural that you look unkindly upon others who enjoy Diablo style gameplay.  These consumers are the force ushering in a significant change in the genre, and that change, from your perspective, is for the worse.

 

So far, I agree you have a point.  It makes sense to argue with folks when it comes to your favorite passtime.  When someone provides the incentive that results in unwanted change, then you must speak out against it.

 

However, where I disagree with you is the tactic of trivializing Diablo's story.  Was it good or not?  Who knows?  That's for someone else to decide, but involves more than killing demon #1, demon #2, etc.  ...Or, to put it another way, if we boil down Diablo's story in such a manner, we can boil down most major works of literature in the same way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not really so much the style of the game I don't like, it's that there's so little to it. Volourn mentioned NWN's OC earlier, and that game to me and others like it have made Diablo and its clones irrelevant IMO. It was like Diablo on steroids. It had a lot of the same fundamental game elements: monsters, loot, easy to master combat, but was filled to the brim with a whole lot more. Yet somehow, simple Diablo clones continue to sell like hot cakes, while games that take that formula and try to improve upon or add some complexity fail.

 

It sends a clear message to developers and publishers: "We do not need games with depth that have a lot of work and creativity put into them. Games do not have to advance."

 

In my mind of course. I'm not claiming what I think is by default the reality.

 

I like most game genres really, so my loathing of Diabloish games isn't just about CRPGs, but it's representative of the rendundancy in video games all together. Frankly, I do like the hobby, but if that's what the future holds; if that's all people really want, I'm done with them. Especially since the main area it has been impacting over the last decade have been CRPGs which are my favorite genre. I've already been getting more and bored with the hobby over the last several years.

 

That does not mean I think less of people who like such games at all, or "look unkindly upon them" as you put it. I'm just expressing the realization that my tastes probably do not fall in line with the general populace and I'm prone to griping about it.

 

In fact, my first post on a gaming related message forum, the Black Isle boards, was to bitch about how they were making primarily Diablo clones for consoles and how they sucked. :D I was promptly flamed by a dozen or so people for my views, including Eldar if memory serves me correctly.

 

Anyway, despite a few things it seems you pretty much understood what I was saying.

 

As for the plot, it was of course a bit of an over-simplification, but I think it did represent the fundamentals of at least Diablo 2's plot.

 

The hero from the former game tried to contain the soul of Diablo within his own body, in the hopes he would be able to subdue him forever. This of course didn't work and the hero becomes an insane host to Diablo, and to make matters worse, his band of brothers show up. You now have to kill his brothers and confront Diablo himself(kill demon #1, demon #2, demon #3, big scary demon #4) before they do something bad in the world, as big scary demons are prone to do. Am I really leaving out anything substantial? Been a while since I played it so I could be.

 

Lets be honest, that's not exactly epic or highly compelling matieral there though.