Age of Decadence

[Wrath of Dagon]

The question is what's your criterion for judging? Is it something irrelevant like cutting edge graphics or is it design? Also a combat demo should be released soon.

[Gromnir]

The question is what's your criterion for judging? Is it something irrelevant like cutting edge graphics or is it design? Also a combat demo should be released soon.

 

send question back at you. given that all we gots is graphics screenies and some promises from developers... along with the choices and consequences stuff, how can you be so enthusiastic? graphics is hardly on-par with AAA games... if am using alphabet we probably end up down 'round L or M for graphics.

 

is nothing particularly impressive 'bout announced rules. sounds like fantasy fallout... which is what arcanum tried. if arcanum teach us anything it is that falloutesque not necessarily result in a quality game. is pretty standard array of attributes we seen in previous fantasy games, and is not as if we ain't seen similar stats. rules ain't particularly innovative... which ain't a bad thing. so often developers get caught up in da rulez and forget that implementation is what genuine counts.

 

combat demo ain't been released, so is tough to laud aod combat, no? so far we sees screens that makes it look like a hodgepodge amalgam 'tween d&d and fo... got similar interface to fo but we sees references to power attacks and critical hits and numerical values that look very d&d like.

 

have read the iron throne choices and consequences thread. as we note already, it reminds us of the early portions o' toee. aod examples o' writing ain't on par with motb or kotor or a host o' other games... but we has seen so little that is tough to judge... so how can you judge good? regardless, no matter how many choices and opportunities you provide, player will become bored if you not makes for compelling story. crpgs is NOT rpgs in traditional pnp sense. pnp allows for cooperative and extemporaneous storytelling... but without fellow players you gots a big burden dumped on developer to be finding reason to keep player interested and so far it not sound like ado developers get that fact.

 

again, question is returned... given what we got from iron tower, how can you be so enthusiastic 'bout an admitted ugly looking game that gots no genuine positive combat demo or writing samples? am not writing aod off as a lost cause, but am not getting the enthusiasm given the lack o' positives... other than the typical empty promises we has seen from a dozen more experienced and better funded developers over the decades. is you having some particular faith that vd is different than cain or sawyer or gaider or avellone? why?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

side note:

 

just so folks understand where we is coming from, Gromnir honest believes that genuine innovation and improvement in game industry will probable have to come from some indie developer. is ironic that game development has become so expensive that established developers has a hard time justifying innovation-- is too risky. so, keep in mind that Gromnir is always enthusiastic when we hears that some indie developer is trying to do... different. am simply not seeing anything all that great or different 'bout aod. have heard same promises 'bout Real choice from a half dozen other developers, so that is nothing new. maybe if aod weren't trying so hard to look/sound like fantasy fallout we might be more enthusiastic. is tough to be innovative when you is so obvious influenced by a previous game that had, as fergie described, "soul numbing" combat, terrible balance and mediocre writing.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Gromnir

[Wrath of Dagon]

but we has seen so little that is tough to judge... so how can you judge good? regardless, no matter how many choices and opportunities you provide, player will become bored if you not makes for compelling story. crpgs is NOT rpgs in traditional pnp sense. pnp allows for cooperative and extemporaneous storytelling... but without fellow players you gots a big burden dumped on developer to be finding reason to keep player interested and so far it not sound like ado developers get that fact.

I never said the game is guaranteed to be good. At most all I can say for now everything I've seen of it looks very good.

 

again, question is returned... given what we got from iron tower, how can you be so enthusiastic 'bout an admitted ugly looking game that gots no genuine positive combat demo or writing samples? am not writing aod off as a lost cause, but am not getting the enthusiasm given the lack o' positives... other than the typical empty promises we has seen from a dozen more experienced and better funded developers over the decades. is you having some particular faith that vd is different than cain or sawyer or gaider or avellone? why?

The game is not ugly looking, as I said before, technically the graphics are very decent, and the art design is great. To me the writing looks good, and the parts of the story we've learned so far sound very intriguing.

just so folks understand where we is coming from, Gromnir honest believes that genuine innovation and improvement in game industry will probable have to come from some indie developer.

Vince never claimed AoD is innovative. He is shooting for a high quality traditional RPG. It's not that he's trying to make it just like Fallout, it's that he believes that providing choices and consequences is key in proper RPG design.

[Gromnir]

opinions 'bout writing and graphics aside, the following is where you and Gromnir is gonna suffer serious disconnect:

 

"It's not that he's trying to make it just like Fallout, it's that he believes that providing choices and consequences is key in proper RPG design."

 

if you or vd believe that there is such a thing as "proper RPG design," then we is gonna have a hard time communicating. am always bothered by folks who seems to has some notion of "proper" regarding crpg design. typically we disagree with such folks regarding their definition, but am more concerned by the straitjacket people is placing 'pon themselves if they embrace such a curiously reactionary pov. is not that vd is doing homage to fo... he just wanna do proper... the way fo did. HA!

 

and the "choices and consequences" language has become a shibboleth for the hack developer. EVERY developer claims that choice is good in crpgs and that they wanna instill genuine consequences tied to such choices. am getting genuine tired o' hearing. is actually pretty darn easy to create choices and consequences in game... so long as such consequences don't result in much branching or halting o' critical path plot... and is still difficult if results in branching and breaking of individual side-quest stories. am waiting to hear some genuine novel approach that successful makes story concerns compatible with rpg notions o' choice & consequence. 'til then the choice and consequence shtick is simply noise we has heard from folks with far more impressive development resumes than vd. choice and consequences ain't the end that some developers seem to suggest.

 

"The game is not ugly looking, as I said before, technically the graphics are very decent, and the art design is great."

 

am thinking you would be better served by not fighting this point. makes you seem like you is trying too hard. would probably be more advantageous to simple admit that graphics is sub-par... 'cause otherwise you come off seeming a little delusional. as for the writing... am curious where you has seen examples o' good writing from iron tower relating to aod. honest.

 

"I never said the game is guaranteed to be good. At most all I can say for now everything I've seen of it looks very good."

 

and Gromnir once again asks what is the good? you ain't seen the combat demo but you is enthusiastic. am doubting you is honest suggesting that it is the graphics is sooper-groovy-keen and the writing, what there is of it, is pedestrian at best. other than the o' so familiar developer rhetoric 'bout choice and consequences, what is you genuinely seeing in aod that is "very good"... and developer enthusiasm not count in Gromnir's book. Gromnir is a big fan o' Doubting Thomas... am gonna wanna probe the wounds before we believe.

 

ask self, if aod were a ea game, and it were ea making same promises as is vd, and showing similar graphics in released screenies, would you be enthusiastic or would you be slamming 'em? be honest. try to be honest. maybe what you actually has is Faith, 'cause we ain't yet seen something to make us a believer.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

The choices and consequences come from being able to take different paths depending on your character build. While many developers pay lip service to this concept, in practice you usually get a few fairly meaningless skill checks which don't affect very much. I think Vince has shown multiple examples of taking different approaches in AoD, including in the link posted earlier. He also posted a diagram of the main quest, which is quite involved. As far as writing, I've been reading the forums regularly and thus have seen many examples. You and I seem to have very different ideas on what costitutes good/acceptable graphics and writing, so I don't see a purpose in arguing that point. As far as EA, EA is not going to make an RPG that relies heavily on a text interface, so I'm not sure what that comparison is worth. I'm expecting DAO to be a good game, in spite of all the hits it's taking for writing and graphics, and that's an EA game.

[Volourn]

"As far as EA, EA is not going to make an RPG that relies heavily on a text interface, so I'm not sure what that comparison is worth."

 

Weird. They're making DAO which will likely have as much text as pretty much any other RPG.

 

But, I do agree that AOD should be fine when it comes to C&C.

[Wrath of Dagon]

No, I meant AoD quests are actually done using a text adventure interface, I expect very little if any of that from DAO. I wasn't talking about dialogues.

[deadlus]

That C&C thread is far from the only example of quest design, so I wouldn't be so quick to assume AoD will get a "Fargoth's Gold" treatment. Since I'm so nice, I did a quick search for further reading for those interested:

 

Let's Play AoD thread - users vote on PC's progress

 

Some of it has also been neatly formatted for RPGWatch:

 

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

 

Merchant

Loremaster

Journey Through Zamedi

 

&

Unofficial Age of Decadence Gallery

[Wrath of Dagon]

In case anyone missed it, I'll repost what Vince said about ways to accomplish that particular quest:

 

Curious, are there ways to get an audience with Lord Antidas other than escorting Cassius or doing Dellar's quests? If so, how many?

7 ways:

 

- challenge Dellar and defeat him in combat (wouldn't count on it)

- infiltrate the palace like a ninja - keep in mind, this screen was taken 3 years ago, so...

- double-cross Feng and take Cassius to Antidas

- deal with the raiders

- deal with the Aurelian outpost

- join the Imperial Guards - eventually you'll be sent to talk to Antidas, although things may go ugly and you may or may not get a chance to have a heart-to-heart conversation. Depends on your skills and certain choices.

- start the game as one of the Antidas' "knights".

 

Edit: Actually, it's 8 ways. I missed one:

 

- you can pretend to be a nobleman and talk your way in. It's mentioned in the LP thread.

[Gromnir]

The choices and consequences come from being able to take different paths depending on your character build. While many developers pay lip service to this concept, in practice you usually get a few fairly meaningless skill checks which don't affect very much.

 

As far as EA, EA is not going to make an RPG that relies heavily on a text interface, so I'm not sure what that comparison is worth. I'm expecting DAO to be a good game, in spite of all the hits it's taking for writing and graphics, and that's an EA game.

 

is as if you complete ignore the ea point after recognizing that many developers pay lip service to choice and consequence... you maybe not realize that you pretty much prove our point 'bout Faith. is not that iron tower is promising anything different than a half dozen other developers, is simply that in spite of little experience and questionable production values you BELIEVE that vd will actually produce meaningful choice and consequence. you don't believe that ea could make a "proper" crpg, in spite of fact that they got resources and experience. you do believe in iron tower in spite o' their paltry resume and limited resources. fine. you got Faith... but don't act surprised 'cause Gromnir don't. convince us maybe that angels exist 'cause you believe in 'em? am not gonna deny your faith, but don't act surprised 'cause we needs more than your faith that iron tower will do more than "pay lip service" and that it somehow works in context o' a story-driven game... which is something we sees getting glossed over more frequent than not.

 

does vd have a nwn/nwn2 mod that we can see how his notions o' choice and consequences work in context o' a story driven game? would be curious to see.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 12, 2009 by Gromnir

[Maria Caliban]

I am sure a niche of gamers will adore AoD, some will dislike it, and the majority will never hear of it.

[Gromnir]

I am sure a niche of gamers will adore AoD, some will dislike it, and the majority will never hear of it.

 

am positive that some folks will like simply 'cause they convinced self ahead of time that game were good. am certain that some other folks will claim to like even if they gots reservations. is more than a couple o' games that has been released where we seen the core boardies claim success even if virtual all other peoples claim fail. spend dozens o' hours on a game board and some folks is gonna get emotionally invested... no surprise. the thing is, if some folks is already convincing selves that aod is having keen graphics, then we suspect that they is invested beyond reasoning. convince Gromnir that graphics is unimportant? yeah, we get that... but argue that aod looks kewl?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

fine. you got Faith... but don't act surprised 'cause Gromnir don't. convince us maybe that angels exist 'cause you believe in 'em? am not gonna deny your faith, but don't act surprised 'cause we needs more than your faith that iron tower will do more than "pay lip service" and that it somehow works in context o' a story-driven game... which is something we sees getting glossed over more frequent than not.

 

does vd have a nwn/nwn2 mod that we can see how his notions o' choice and consequences work in context o' a story driven game? would be curious to see.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Vince gave multiple examples of how the game is going to work. If you don't believe him, there'll be a combat demo soon. When the game is released, there'll be a game demo. You can see for yourself. And AoD is not a story driven game, it's a choice driven game. And the key point is what Maria said, the audience for AoD is very different from the EA audience.

 

the thing is, if some folks is already convincing selves that aod is having keen graphics, then we suspect that they is invested beyond reasoning. convince Gromnir that graphics is unimportant? yeah, we get that... but argue that aod looks kewl?

I'd be very happy if someone made another KOTOR with KOTOR graphics. And did you even see the screenshot I posted, or the other links?

Edited June 12, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gromnir]

am not sure what points you is trying to make.

 

how many other developers has given examples o' how quest has multiple resolutions? heck, Gromnir can name quests in motb that gots five or six possible resolutions... and as mentioned earlier, many o' the toee early quests had multiple resolutions... is just that they all were suckage... and as Gromnir has noted many times, multiple resolution o' side quest can has loads o' options, 'cause the consequences are, in fact, insular.

 

and again, ea audience has 0 relevance to why you have faith in iron tower.

 

"And did you even see the screenshot I posted, or the other links?"

 

yes. no offense, but you is being delusional if you thinks you is showing swell graphics with linky. swell for an indie developer with low budget? sure, but is that the measure?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

am not sure what points you is trying to make.

 

how many other developers has given examples o' how quest has multiple resolutions? heck, Gromnir can name quests in motb that gots five or six possible resolutions... and as mentioned earlier, many o' the toee early quests had multiple resolutions... is just that they all were suckage... and as Gromnir has noted many times, multiple resolution o' side quest can has loads o' options, 'cause the consequences are, in fact, insular.

 

and again, ea audience has 0 relevance to why you have faith in iron tower.

 

"And did you even see the screenshot I posted, or the other links?"

 

yes. no offense, but you is being delusional if you thinks you is showing swell graphics with linky. swell for an indie developer with low budget? sure, but is that the measure?

 

HA! Good Fun!

You have multiple ways of advancing through the main story, not just insular side quests, I'm not even sure AOD has insular side quests. And yes, it's an independent developer with no budget, so why shouldn't I use that measure, especially as graphics are more than good enough for the purpose? May be they're not as good as TOR's, but I can't really think of another mainstream game whose graphics I prefer.

[Gromnir]

"You have multiple ways of advancing through the main story, not just insular side quests, I'm not even sure AOD has insular side quests"

 

would be kinda tragic if were no insular side quests, 'cause we grantee that not every aod quest resolution results in bifurcation or Meaningful alteration o' critical path. Gromnir read the choice and consequences stuff too, and we thinks you is being equal willful blind 'bout meaningful consequences in aod as you is 'bout graphics... again using some lesser measure or standard.

 

"I can't really think of another mainstream game whose graphics I prefer"

 

you see, this is the kinda thing where folks in thread who may wanna genuine agree with you is gonna have eye-roll reaction... dismiss you rather than take serious.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

There's no single critical path, there are several outcomes and several ways to reach each outcome. It's not that your every choice results in a new universe of possibilities.

[Darth InSidious]

To be fair, I really don't think graphics (or sound) would be valid critiques of the game. These are things that, to get right, require some pretty expensive skill-sets. I think Tig (?) hit the nail with the "does not hurt eyes" comment. Similarly, I really wouldn't expect the kind of sound design a pro studio could afford.

[Gromnir]

There's no single critical path, there are several outcomes and several ways to reach each outcome. It's not that your every choice results in a new universe of possibilities.

 

several outcomes does not preclude critical path(s). is the easiest thing in the world to create multiple outcomes as long as nothing follows. kinda undercuts the meaningful aspect. again, is bifurcation OR meaningful alteration... otherwise you end up with toee nonsense where developers simply tries to make sure that every skill gets useful outcomes... mess. which brings us back to our original criticism. a sp role-play game w/o compelling story elements taht gives player a reason to play becomes real dull real fast.

 

"These are things that, to get right, require some pretty expensive skill-sets."

 

yeah? so? again, am not suggesting that a good game NEEDS top-shelf graphics, but when a defender o' aod makes following observation... "I can't really think of another mainstream game whose graphics I prefer"

 

again, nowhere does Gromnir suggest need of top-shelf graphics. am the guy who still plays panzer general from time to time. even so, the defenders o' the faith is getting wacky with how far they is going to try and defend aod if they compares graphics to other mainstream games that does have big budgets.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 13, 2009 by Gromnir

[Bos_hybrid]

And yes, it's an independent developer with no budget, so why shouldn't I use that measure, especially as graphics are more than good enough for the purpose? May be they're not as good as TOR's, but I can't really think of another mainstream game whose graphics I prefer.

 

I can think of about 4-5 years of mainstream games with better graphics. Graphics are not a feature thats going to sell this game, in fact it will be ignored by many gamers because of them, rightly or wrongly.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I didn't say they weren't "better", I said I didn't like them. Most modern graphics are generic and boring, and I'd rather look at anything than another UE3 game. And graphics may not sell AOD, but art design should, because it's quite good.

[Wrath of Dagon]

This is bad writing?

 

[Gromnir]

This is bad writing?

 

 

 

is two snippets, taken out o' context... didn't even read second one after the "supernatural aura" bit. yeah, am sure that the guys at iowa and irvine is all envious.

 

'course you is also the guy who ain't seen mainstream game graphics you likes better than aod, so is some questions regarding your honesty/taste/sanity.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

Those graphics look totally playable to me.

 

OF course, I still play XCOM and I think Fallout 1 looks great, so obviously my eyes are broken.

 

 

edit: I don't think the writing is all that great though. I mean its way better than Fallout 3's 80 characters max per line drivel, but its pretty much far below any bad fantasy novel you can find in the bookstore.

 

Let's face it: video games and writing isn't a match made in heaven.

Edited June 15, 2009 by CrashGirl

[Gromnir]

"Those graphics look totally playable to me."

 

pretty much any graphics is playable if the gameplay is engaging. am personally a fan of much of the old 2d stuff... 'course aod screenies not got advantage o' some o' the kewl hand-painted 2d stuff from past. is just ugly 3d.

 

*shrug*

 

graphics of aod is ugly but not unplayable. however, when folks claim that no mainstream game gots better graphics than what we has seen from aod...

 

is silly. is silly and unnecessary.

 

HA! Good Fun!