Pentagon eyes ways to use military

[LoneWolf16]

Meeting a pre-determined requirement set by the governing body of our country pretty much sums it up...be it in time spent within the country, or through other means.

 

It should because that's the way the laws are set up. I'm the first to admit that some laws are more than a little pointless, but that's not the case here. And to compare these laws, of all of them, to Hitler's "Kill the Jews" laws is just...dumb.

[Azarkon]

Not particularly. The first thing Hitler did was strip the Jews of official citizenship by way of law. Definition of what a citizen is indeed: are people who lived in a country most of their lives citizens? Are people who work here "illegally" undeserving of basic rights, as Bush claims? Citizenzhip is precisely what Hitler sought to prevent the Jews from having. If he thought it was that important to deny, you can easily see why illegal immigrants must not be granted citizenship. I assume you see the first connection.

 

The second connection is less what Bush is doing and more what he's implying. Sending troops to defend the borders? Why? Because illegal immigrants are the enemies. They are intruders - and must either be expelled, non-violently if possible, or shot down, which is ultimately what the soldiers are there to do. Thus, they are dehumanized - they are the abstract Other, rather than individual human beings. No attempt is made to empathize with them, because they are deemed below the possibility of empathy. They're selfish, greedy, dirty Mexicans here to drive down the American economy - they're all that's wrong with this country.

 

Funny, Hitler said the same about the Jews.

 

I need go no further. I am not implying that Jews in WW 2 = illegal immigrants today. However, the similarities are there. I'd rather not argue about them - either you see them or you're dead set on the mentality of trying to distinguish between them because there's no way that the US can be like Nazi Germany. No way, we're the good guys.

 

I'm sure the Germans thought the same about themselves. There's really no point in arguing, though. Political discussions are not rational; they're about how you're raised and therefore emotional. There's no point in a rational discussion of emotion.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Azarkon

[LoneWolf16]

Is it me, or does making comparisons between Hitler/the third reich and Bush/the current administration automatically take away from credibility?

 

This particular issue may seem like it's loaded down with shades of grey, but rest assured, it's pretty black and white. They've come in illegally, therefore, they must either become legal citizens by going through the proper channels/procedures, or risk being thrown out of the country.

 

My main question is this; Why would you come in illegally in the first place? If you do, you have to be willing to take the pro of getting in with the con of being treated poorly. Get a citizenship, and that poor treatment goes, for the most part, bye bye. Otherwise, don't complain.

[Azarkon]

Is it me, or does making comparisons between Hitler/the third reich and Bush/the current administration automatically take away from credibility?

 

If that's how you feel, stop responding to me now. I have no intention of engaging in a useless debate, and it'd certainly be useless if you're not even willing to consider my viewpoint. Like I said, politics is emotional.

 

My main question is this; Why would you come in illegally in the first place? If you do, you have to be willing to take the pro of getting in with the con of being treated poorly. Get a citizenship, and that poor treatment goes, for the most part, bye bye. Otherwise, don't complain.

 

You make it sound so easy.

 

Tell me, why does birth guarantee you US citizenship?

Edited May 15, 2006 by Azarkon

[Walsingham]

Smokescreen if you ask me. Trying to make tough guy moves to shore up some popularity.

 

I agree that illegal immigration should not be permitted. Either make it legal for Mexicans to travel across the border, or keep it illegal and enforce it. BUt it isn't that big a deal to warrant all this coverage.

[Gorth]

I agree that illegal immigration should not be permitted. Either make it legal for Mexicans to travel across the border, or keep it illegal and enforce it. BUt it isn't that big a deal to warrant all this coverage.

Enforce it is an interesting choice of words. I'm not sure how things are in the UK, but in Denmark, it's generally accepted that being a democracy requires the power to be split between three entities (law making, law enforcing and the courts). For one reason or other, the military enforcing laws doesn't figure in there as part of it, being normally considered the domain of theocracies, oligarchies, banana republics, what have you

 

Once you start delegating things away from parliamentary control, you *might* start down a dangerous slippery slope.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Gorth

[Surreptishus]

US Immigration Facts and Figures

 

Some charts and graphs illustrating the depth of the illegal immigration situation.

[astr0creep]

I have a vision of an electrified fence like the one in Jurassic Park, erected all along the borders of Mexico and Canada.

 

A completely isolated United States, with all the other countries in the world simply stop all trades and businesses with that country.

 

See how long they last.

 

Or:

 

Allow the population of all southern states to possess AND use arms to hunt latinos. Install a few cameras, make popcorn and enjoy the show.

 

Or:

 

Invade Mexico after they are done with the Middle-East. Mexico has oil! (w00t)

[Lucius]

As much as I think the Bush administration is wrong, comparing them to Hitlers Nazi Party = complete loss of credibility in my book.

 

As for the laws, they're there for a reason. We don't allow illegal immigrants here either, why should the US?

Whether or not the military should be used, I don't know enough about the situation really, but in general they shouldn't enforce laws I think.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I wasn't aware that the US army was twiddling its thumbs looking for more things to do, but as they apparently are, I have some heavy pots that need lifting.

 

I would imagine, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that one major problem is that the existing border security is underresourced for the job it's expected to do, and the solution is to hire more people, train them better, and pay them a decent wage so they stay. I don't suppose there are many catchy headlines in that, though.

[Mnemon]

Still feel this is much to simplified. The right question has been asked in this thread but not really picked on.

 

"Why do the immigrate illegally in the first place?" Whatever your notion is of that, being an illegal definitely is not something you do for fun. And there's more --- they really don't come without a reason and without a chance of survival either. I.e. - they will have to earn money, which means someone is paying/employing them (and if it is related to further illegal activities [drugs, prostitution, etc.]).

 

Just going the "harsh" route of closing borders won't work, no matter where you have illegal immigrants - anywhere in the world. In this specific case the area is just much to big to cover, too. As long as there also is a demand for "the services" these illegals are willing and able to "provide" they'll use their chances - specifically if Mexico continues to be a much poorer country then the U.S.. Fences don't work - people that are desperate enough will find ways around it, even if it means physical harm.

 

A responsible reaction would be to not just crack down on the illegals, but look at those on the US side that support them and the immigration. You can't just only blame one side and assume the problem can be solved through that. If you want a lasting solution getting people to accept a change in behaviour is required - make sure employing someone illegally instead of "legals" has to be a heavily shunned thing to do, morally - solving drug problems means making sure there is no market for them - which means investing effort into people not needing drugs in the first place.

 

-Mnemon

[Azarkon]

Cracking down on companies that hire illegals is like trying to stop outsourcing. Ain't gonna work.

 

But building a fence won't work, either, and by any measure of morality and practicality it's infinitely worse of a solution.

 

Have fun throwing your dollars away for Bush's new Great Wall.

[Mnemon]

Yar. That's why I included that bit about morals and get people to change behaviour.

 

Which won't work by cracking down on anyone - or at least not only by making laws and enforcing them. I don't know - that's sort of what I feel is lacking and really damaging of the type of Capitalism/Social Conduct that is spreading these days - part of the idea of capitalism as promoted in the first place WAS to spread wealth and to provide fair chances. I think that vision beyond the mere financial is what is being lost.

 

Whatever political/economical system one has it really should at least aim at having some written or unwritten rules that aid building a society (and with that I mean a community/group of people with a common goal), rather then creating something that is only about egoistical purposes with no regard for the larger picture.

 

-Mnemon

Edited May 15, 2006 by Mnemon

[astr0creep]

Maybe they should just do like Canada and let anyone in? Blur the frontiers!

[Judge Hades]

First off, lets not deal with Hitler, or the Euros coming to the Americas. They are years and years and years in the past therefore irrelevant. Lets deal with the problems here and now and deal with them.

 

Secondly, the US has laws governing immigration. You can either follow those laws or break them. There is no grey area. You either come into the country legally or illegally. If one comes to this country legally then its not a problem. If you come into the country illegally then you should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and deported. Plain and simple.

 

If I was an employer here inthe US I would not employ a person who came into the country illegally. If I found out one of my employees did I would fire him on the spot. Also Illegals should not be allowed to get a driver's license, welfare, and other necessities for low income families. THEY ARE ILLEGALS.

 

Those who come intot he country legally should be treated equally as citizens as much as the law allows. Illegals on the other hand need to go home where they belong and try to enter the country legally. I don't care if they lived in the US for 20, 30 or even 50 years. They are illegal. They broke the law.

 

I think we need stronger deterrents against illegal immigration. Companies who knowingly hire illegals should face a fine of $500,000 per illegal employee would be a start. As for the illegal themselves it should be a felony crime on the same level as robbery. Jail time then deportation. If the illegal is underaged then just deportation. As for being cught in the act, jail time and deportation, or if there is resistance, then the penalty should be stronger.

[LoneWolf16]

If that's how you feel, stop responding to me now.  I have no intention of engaging in a useless debate, and it'd certainly be useless if you're not even willing to consider my viewpoint.  Like I said, politics is emotional.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say I wasn't willing to consider your viewpoint. I simply stated that I find the Nazi references to be a little over the top and damaging to the perpetrator's credibility.

 

Politics is indeed emotional...a fatal flaw in the system. The emotion disrupts rational judgement.

 

You make it sound so easy.

 

Tell me, why does birth guarantee you US citizenship?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not really easy. It's just something that has to be done in order to comply with the current laws.

 

Birth guarantee's citizenship because that's the way things are set up here. Simple as that. The founding fathers came up with a plan, there have been numerous amendments, both official and not, and now we're here.

 

Black and white.

<Snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed on most things...except for the people who've been here 20 years or so. That's a long time. I'd say not to deport, but to force them to legally acquire their citizenship within a certain amount of time, say a year (Not counting time taken for the process itself), then face deportation if they don't.

Edited May 15, 2006 by LoneWolf16

[Judge Hades]

I treat everyone fairly. If you are illegal it doesn't matter how long you are in the country for. An illegal is illegal, regardless of time passing just as a murderer is a murderer, a rapist is a rapist. You either break the law or you didn't.

[alanschu]

This is a very serious issue.  We need to stop illegal immigration at any means necessary.  If that means using the military then so be it.  I rather have them do that than be over in Iraq.

 

If people want to live and work in the US then let them do so legally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Silly Rabbit - Eddo topics aren't supposed to be serious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Fixed!

 

So...we should allow illegal immigration even though it can, and does, have a negative impact on the economy at large?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think this effect is significantly overstated.

[Judge Hades]

Or understated depending on your point of view. Personally I like to see illegal immigration eliminated.

[alanschu]

How does it have a negative effect on the economy.

 

People say that they take away jobs from people, but in my observation it seems as though the jobs they "take away" are often jobs that many consider themselves too good to take? At least for that wage.

 

If anything, I find the economy argument bunk, because cheaper labour means that goods get produced cheaper, and it adheres more to the lassiez-faire capitalist ideology, which has a pretty good track record for growing an economy.

[LoneWolf16]

Well, basically, it's the same thing as outsourcing. Most of the money they make goes directly back to their families in Mexico.

 

Granted, we're in an inflationary period already...but.......yeah.

[alanschu]

I don't know enough about illegal immigration to know where they send a lot of their money to, so I'll take your word for it.

[Judge Hades]

I don't really care about the economic angle. If companies want to outsource to other countries then so be it. My problem is people coming into my country illegally. If they want to come to live and work in the US they need to do so legally. The law is the law.

[LoneWolf16]

I don't know enough about illegal immigration to know where they send a lot of their money to, so I'll take your word for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that was sarcasm. Ow.

 

If it wasn't sarcasm. For god sakes, never rely on me for information.

[alanschu]

Not sarcasm. I know that illegal immigration exists. For some reason I assume that a fair bit of them try to get their families over as well.

 

 

As for Hades and coming in legally...if it was easy to get in legally, then it probably wouldn't be a problem.

 

What does it take to legally immigrate into the US? And perhaps more importantly, what does it cost?

 

 

 

And if it's just about whether or not people are there legally are not, and nothing else, then I'm curious what the issue is then?