The good ol' times...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Then video game RPGs probably aren't for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well games where you can only make a character playable by giving it amnesia are not. I see right through those sorts of things. To me thats just lazy and cheesy. But if other people like it, well their choice. I'd rather have my own creation as part of the game and have my imagination fill in the blanks.

 

FO works because it dosnt cheat to get it's point across. It's also a game where your choices matter in the end.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

One of your previoius incarnations had signed a contract though, sealing your fate to serve in the Blood War eventually, no matter what.  I guess they could have given you a choice to keep trying to escape it, but the sense of closure wouldn't have been as good IMO.  It still doesn't mean everything you did through the course of the game ceased to matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A previous incarnation over whom you had no control.

 

You could claim that you had no control over being a spawn either, which is true. However even though you were a spawn , your ultimate destiny was still in your own hands. Ditto for KOTOR II.

 

Your just facilitating the outcome that was already written from the start in PST.

[StillLife]

One of your previoius incarnations had signed a contract though, sealing your fate to serve in the Blood War eventually, no matter what.  I guess they could have given you a choice to keep trying to escape it, but the sense of closure wouldn't have been as good IMO.  It still doesn't mean everything you did through the course of the game ceased to matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A previous incarnation over whom you had no control.

 

You could claim that you had no control over being a spawn either, which is true. However even though you were a spawn , your ultimate destiny was still in your own hands. Ditto for KOTOR II.

 

Your just facilitating the outcome that was already written from the start in PST.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Damn SP, had to hit me up twice on that one huh?

 

I don't know, having a predetermined fate didn't bother me much I guess as long as the role-playing opportunities within the game were nice enough. I'd much prefer that over meaningless character creation where you don't really get to define your characters actual personality much(Oblivion). A combination of the two like in Fallout is probably the most fulfilling though.

 

But you love JRPGs right? How can you hate on PS: T for not allowing you to create a character or choose your own destiny when most of those games don't either?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Damn SP, had to hit me up twice on that one huh? 

 

I don't know, having a predetermined fate didn't bother me much I guess as long as the role-playing opportunities within the game were nice enough.  I'd much prefer that over meaningless character creation where you don't really get to define your characters actual personality much(Oblivion).  A combination of the two like in Fallout is probably the most fulfilling though.

 

But you love JRPGs right?  How can you hate on PS: T for not allowing you to create a character or choose your own destiny when most of those games don't either?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry about that.

 

As an old school PnP player most of my character definition takes place in my imagination. When I'm playing something like IWD I consider the character background, personality etc. Plus the events thus far before clicking an option.

 

Fallout gets my award too.

 

Because JRPGs don't try to fool you into thinking a character is yours. You may be defining the statistics. But you didnt create Cloud now did you ? They don't use some cludge like amnesia to make it possible for you to play a character. I enjoy JRPGs for reasons that are quite different to why I enjoy games like Fallout.

If you have choice. Then that choice needs to be reflected in the outcome to have meaning.

 

PST had choice. There were plenty of places where you could define the characters actions. But those choices were rendered meaningless in the end by a fate you could not escape. If you wanted to run that sort of scenario. Then the end should have been about how the character changed other things (like in FO) rather than just trooping off to the bloodwars.

Edited May 1, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Volourn]

"As an old school PnP player most of my character definition takes place in my imagination. When I'm playing something like IWD I consider the character background, personality etc. Plus the events thus far before clicking an option."

 

All of that 'role-playing' you do in your ehad for IWD means nothing. Why? The game doesn't react to the fact that your chaotic elf has lost his sister and he is an his girlfriend who happens to be a half dwarf-half drow have gone to the IWD region to find.

 

None of this means nothing if the game does not react to it.

 

In pnp, when you make up a background or eprsonality it matters because any DM worth their spaghetti will make sure it matters. A pre scripted game like IWD (or FO, or BG, etc.) can't so what youa re doing is not role-playing. You best write a book about it with your imagination 'cause it means nothing in game.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

All of that 'role-playing' you do in your ehad for IWD means nothing. Why? The game doesn't react to the fact that your chaotic elf has lost his sister and he is an his girlfriend who happens to be a half dwarf-half drow have gone to the IWD region to find.

 

None of this means nothing if the game does not react to it.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats where you are wrong. It has meaning because it determines which options a character will choose and even sometimes how a character will fight. That is what gives it meaning.

 

Not every aspect of your background will be acknowledged by the game (that only happens with pre gen characters) but some of it usually is.

[Cantousent]

You know, ShadowPaladin, I don't mind listening to your hostility to PS:T. I understand that folks are entitled to their preferrences. Fair enough.

 

Why don't you cut out flashing your credentials, however? I've been playing PnP longer than you, and I've had more experience as both a player and a D/GM. When you put it in terms of your so called "old school" experience, it just makes me wonder if the best argument you can muster is "I've played longer than you."

 

I don't care who has played more. One of the arguments you've made is that you're an "expert" RPGer. I remember that from our Interplay days. Fine. You're an "expert," whatever the hell that means. It still doesn't make for a compelling argument.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You know, ShadowPaladin, I don't mind listening to your hostility to PS:T.  I understand that folks are entitled to their preferrences.  Fair enough.

 

Why don't you cut out flashing your credentials, however?  I've been playing PnP longer than you, and I've had more experience as both a player and a D/GM.  When you put it in terms of your so called "old school" experience, it just makes me wonder if the best argument you can muster is "I've played longer than you."

 

I don't care who has played more.  One of the arguments you've made is that you're an "expert" RPGer.  I remember that from our Interplay days.  Fine.  You're an "expert," whatever the hell that means.  It still doesn't make for a compelling argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh snippy.

 

One of the things about playing PnP is you gain experience. It's not something I expect people who havnt played PnP to have and I certainly don't hold that against them. One of the things about the broadening of CRPGs is more and more people with no PnP background are playing the games.

 

Can't say I remember that. Experienced PnP player. Yep guilty :D

 

Why is it relevent ? Because if you don't have the inclination/experience to create characters the game will feel empty. But if you do want to do that the game will feel restrictive.

[Calax]

ok... Shadow doesn't like playing games where the only way you can get a blank "template" is to give the idiot of a pc amnesia.

 

What about those games where you already HAVE a backround? Most of the final fantasies for example, your pc has a defined backround and several connections to people. Usually your basic history (if it's relavent) gets laid out in the first fifteen minutes of the game. is that better or worse than your "amnesiac so I can make him my own"?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

ok... Shadow doesn't like playing games where the only way you can get a blank "template" is to give the idiot of a pc amnesia.

 

What about those games where you already HAVE a backround? Most of the final fantasies for example, your pc has a defined backround and several connections to people. Usually your basic history (if it's relavent) gets laid out in the first fifteen minutes of the game. is that better or worse than your "amnesiac so I can make him my own"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well thats why I enjoy JRPGS for different reasons.Most of the things I would associate with an RPG traditionally, (creating a character, coming up with a character history etc. then playing out that personality in the game) those things are done for you.

 

If the character has a memory.It dosnt need you to be a puppet master. Therefore having character choice is also irrelevent. Since the character is already choosing for itself.

 

Interesting point though because I don't feel that the character is mine. Which makes it quite different from games like BG/FO where I created the character and the character was mine. An amnesiac character would be no more more my own than Cloud would be. Because it would still remove those elements I mentioned. Creating the character , creating the background etc. If I were to do that it would only conflict with what the designers had already predetermined.

Edited May 1, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Llyranor]

I dunno, aren't all CRPGs pretty much pathetic when it comes to roleplaying, only to varying degrees?

 

I think one advantage JRPGs might have is 'better' storytelling. I used to be quite the JRPG fan, but I find them inconsequential nowadays, given that the genre is filled with many archaic conventions that get in the bloody way of storytelling. I'd take a good anime series over a JRPG any day.

 

The draw of CRPGs - to me at least - comes in the form of interactive storytelling, and with roleplaying within that context (as opposed to roleplaying for its own sake, in which case there is no bloody way it can ever even remotely compete with PnP, and any attempt to do so just ends up in disappointment for me - though, I guess some people like it, though I wonder why they wouldn't rather just go PnP in the first place).

 

Of course, some people bring up the argument of 'If I wanted a story, I'd rather read a book/watch a movie' (which is exactly what I'm doing vis-a-via JRPGs, anyway, but that comparison applies because I don't see JRPGs adding anything to storytelling that anime doesn't already, unless you count arbitrary segmentation of the story to introduce gameplay, resulting in some awkward compromise). It's a fair argument, especially in the current state of the industry. Most CRPGs as of now have both poor storytelling AND roleplaying. So, why bother?

 

The advantage of the gaming medium lies in its interactivity. The advantage over PnP lies in its highly structured format comparatively (an analogy from the uninteractive spectrum would be a novel vs watching an improvised play). I don't want to be a passive observer in the story. I also don't want the story to lack proper structuring or to require a group of people in order to progress. In that sense, the gaming medium in many ways can offer the ultimate form of storytelling. In interactivity, you can project more involvement to the player/reader. 'Immersion', if you will. Yet, by its very structured format, the writer/designer can convey his/her vision to the player, much in the way of the novelist, as opposed to the dungeon master/improvisiont. Of course, PnP has its own structure as well, but with it always comes more opportunities for divergence and freedom (which is a good thing, though that may depend on your point of view).

 

For those reasons, I see the gaming medium as - eventually - a step up from the novel. PST in many ways was a small hint at the future for me. It provided good structure as to convey its story to me, and yet allowed interactivity so as to allow further identification with TNO - in ways a novel wouldn't have been able to. Of course, it has many flaws, but it also did many things right.

 

For the most part, though, I refer to the gaming medium in a hypothetical way, because - as it is now - the commercialization of the industry is really hurting its potential for greater storytelling. Then there's the discrimination against games, lack of talent, etc. As the next generation grows up, we may yet have our own unique brand of storytellers - some of whom might hopefully not see the novel as the only way to express themselves.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

For those reasons, I see the gaming medium as - eventually - a step up from the novel. PST in many ways was a small hint at the future for me. It provided good structure as to convey its story to me, and yet allowed interactivity so as to allow further identification with TNO - in ways a novel wouldn't have been able to. Of course, it has many flaws, but it also did many things right.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Interesting piece.

 

I'll just comment on this though.

 

The problem with PST as a step up. It comdems the genre to nothing but thinly disguised amnesiac stories.

 

Would you really want every RPG to follow that exact model ?

[Llyranor]

Why is amnesia a requirement? I could care less if a background is imposed on me. That's not the point. The background in and of itself is just part of the story. The player's involvement comes in during the CURRENT unfolding of events. This is why roleplaying for its own sake has zero appeal to me in CRPGs. It's futile and ultimately limited ANYWAY when you just bring up PnP. It's all about the storytelling context.

[Cantousent]

I liked the piece, Llyr. I still think you're a doofus, but I liked the argument.

 

Of course, it still leaves room for folks like SP who hated the amnesiac background. Basically, it boils down to how well the initial premise of the story sets with the player.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Why is amnesia a requirement? I could care less if a background is imposed on me. That's not the point. The background in and of itself is just part of the story. The player's  involvement comes in during the CURRENT unfolding of events. This is why roleplaying for its own sake has zero appeal to me in CRPGs. It's futile and ultimately limited ANYWAY when you just bring up PnP. It's all about the storytelling context.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But if the background is impossed on you and you ingnore it just so you can click the choices that appeal to you. Not really roleplaying is it.

 

Actually I just thought of something that could make for an interesting RPG. A character with split personality disorder where you are the voices in the characters head :D

[StillLife]

As an old school PnP player most of my character definition takes place in my imagination. When I'm playing something like IWD I consider the character background, personality etc. Plus the events thus far before clicking an option.

 

I haven't played PnP since I was 13, almost 15 years ago now, so you got me there. But I guess I'm kind of lazy when it comes to a CRPG, I don't want to have to do much of the imagining, I want to create my character directly through choices in the game - not in my head. Might be why I utterly despised the IceWind Dales. Hating the combat and monster choices didn't help much either I guess.

 

Because JRPGs don't try to fool you into thinking a character is yours. You may be defining the statistics. But you didnt create Cloud now did you ? They don't use some cludge like amnesia to make it possible for you to play a character. I enjoy JRPGs for reasons that are quite different to why I enjoy games like Fallout.

If you have choice. Then that choice needs to be reflected in the outcome to have meaning.

 

Sorry, but that just doesn't make much sense to me. You'd rather have absolutely no freedom, then a decent amount of freedom?

 

PST had choice. There were plenty of places where you could define the characters actions. But those choices were rendered meaningless in the end by a fate you could not escape. If you wanted to run that sort of scenario. Then the end should have been about how the character changed other things (like in FO) rather than just trooping off to the bloodwars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It probably would have been better that way, I just personally wasn't put off much by the way it did end though.

 

@Llyranor: I agree with most of what you wrote.

[Llyranor]

At SP:

 

What are you talking about? Just because you're a freaking Bhaalspawn doesn't mean you can't have consequential choices within that context.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Llyranor

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I haven't played PnP since I was 13, almost 15 years ago now, so you got me there.  But I guess I'm kind of lazy when it comes to a CRPG, I don't want to have to do much of the imagining, I want to create my character directly through choices in the game - not in my head.  Might be why I utterly despised the IceWind Dales.  Hating the combat and monster choices didn't help much either I guess.

 

Sorry, but that just doesn't make much sense to me.  You'd rather have absolutely no freedom, then a decent amount of freedom?

 

It probably would have been better that way, I just personally wasn't put off much by the way it did end though.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Get's more difficult. Compared to how much I used to play in school/uni

I still enjoy creating the concepts in CRPGs though. But I get where your coming from.

 

Well you already have freedom. It's just a different kind of freedom. As for freedom to choose the characters personality, well if the character dosnt have amnesia. Thats not going to crop up anyway.

[Cantousent]

The biggest problem, SP, is that you've never made a compelling argument against PS:T that held up under scrutiny. There are arguments against PS:T that do bear scrutiny very well, but yours don't. That's because it's important for you to categorize PS:T as something other than an RPG.

 

Isn't it enough to say you don't like it? That makes perfect sense. You don't like the backstory. You don't like the excessive text. You don't like the background of the PC. You're forced to play a character with a look, sound, and feel that doesn't agree with you. There are plenty of arguments to make against PS:T as an RPG. You don't do that, however.

 

Instead, you argue it isn't an RPG in the first place. Fine. You can create your own definition and then say that PS:T doesn't fall in the category, but in common usage, PS:T is an RPG. It might not be the RPG you want, but it is one nonetheless.

 

...And you'd go on until the thread suffered lockdown before you'd budge one inch. It's ridiculous. Fine. You don't like PS:T. That's fair enough and I don't think I've had a harsh word for you because you didn't like the game. Just don't try to tell me it isn't an RPG just because you didn't like it. It doesn't sound elitist, pompous, and self-important. It is elitist, pompous, and self-important.

[Llyranor]

Well, it's better than 'I hate men, I don't want to play a scarred man. I want to be empress of the world and have drow slaves and munchkin levels lol'.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

At SP:

 

What are you talking about? Just because you're a freaking Bhaalspawn doesn't mean you can't have consequential choices within that context.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Key here is a Bhaal spawn.

 

On it's own it's a story hook not a character.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The biggest problem, SP, is that you've never made a compelling argument against PS:T that held up under scrutiny.  There are arguments against PS:T that do bear scrutiny very well, but yours don't.  That's because it's important for you to categorize PS:T as something other than an RPG.

 

Isn't it enough to say you don't like it?  That makes perfect sense.  You don't like the backstory.  You don't like the excessive text.  You don't like the background of the PC.  You're forced to play a character with a look, sound, and feel that doesn't agree with you.  There are plenty of arguments to make against PS:T as an RPG.  You don't do that, however.

 

Instead, you argue it isn't an RPG in the first place.  Fine.  You can create your own definition and then say that PS:T doesn't fall in the category, but in common usage, PS:T is an RPG.  It might not be the RPG you want, but it is one nonetheless.

 

...And you'd go on until the thread suffered lockdown before you'd budge one inch.  It's ridiculous.  Fine.  You don't like PS:T.  That's fair enough and I don't think I've had a harsh word for you because you didn't like the game.  Just don't try to tell me it isn't an RPG just because you didn't like it.  It doesn't sound elitist, pompous, and self-important.  It is elitist, pompous, and self-important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Think I've made all those at one time or another. Except for the excessive text.

 

In this thread I believe it's been.

 

TNO is pregenerated character.

If I have choice then a predetermined outcome is a no no.

 

Hey if people can go around saying JRPGs are not RPGs I can say the same about PST

 

Quetion: How many PnP sessions have you played where you turned up and were given a character created by the GM that had amnesia ?

Edited May 1, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[alanschu]

I think a big problem is when people expect a PnP experience from a CRPG game.

 

I agree with Gromnir's stance about choice in games being an illusion. I've yet to really play an RPG where I am truly given much choice. Even an open game like Oblivion is still limited. The choice you are given is that there is so much to do. I only remember one quest off the top of my head where I was actually able to play both sides off each other, and even then it was just because some woman approached me after I accepted a Mage Guild Recommendation quest, so it was still pretty canned. Not too much choice in the questing as far as I'm concerned, outside of the choice of whether or not to do it.

[Llyranor]

At SP:

 

What are you talking about? Just because you're a freaking Bhaalspawn doesn't mean you can't have consequential choices within that context.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Key here is a Bhaal spawn.

 

On it's own it's a story hook not a character.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irrelevant.

 

Amnesia was a requirement for PST's story BECAUSE the story was centered around it, not because proper interactive storytelling can't occur without it.

 

Besides, backstory != personality.

 

BG1 had an enjoyable plot (BG2 is another story, but bleh), but the storytelling was completely abysmal. Uncovering the whole plot behind a iron shortage would have set the stage for some very nice storytelling, had it actually been done right. The interactivity comes in how you would uncover said plot, or how you would make meaningful choices therein, not in how pretty your dress is. It's perfectly viable to have a story in which you pull off proper choices and consequences without having the story focus on you.

 

In any case, force a single avatar choice on the player and BG1 would have pretty much been the same story as a whole. Beyond that, it's just superficiality. In the same way, you could have easily made TNO female with a few adjustments in the story (mostly Deiodude and Ravie). The story was probably used as an excuse, but it just sounds like lazy design. BG1 was a disappointment simply on account of bad storytelling, not because you weren't an amnesiac.

[mr insomniac]

Quetion: How many PnP sessions have you played where you turned up and were given a character created by the GM that had amnesia ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldn't mind playing a character like that. Although I enjoyed Torment a great deal, I think the opportunities exist for a much more satisfying role-playing experience in PnP game. Most probably because a PnP game has more "life" than a CRPG. the characters will react more deeply to your choices and actions. The world will evolve in different ways based on the things you do. People who knew you before you lost your memories might wonder why you're perhaps behaving differently from past behaviour. I wish Torment has explored that aspect a little further than a few inconsequential encounters.