"I don't cheat as a GM."

[Cantousent]

Are rules in and of themselves relevant, or is their purpose to enhance the players' experience as optimally as possible?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is the correct answer. The point is to have fun.

 

Now, I tend to use the same rules for NPCs as characters. I don't make NPCs invincible. Vital NPCs, however, are built into the story. By the time the party gets to a particularly tough boss, there's not much of a chance of a single hit hit. I've never seen one on a boss in my campaigns yet.

 

Of course, I don't include bosses very often. Finishing a task is much better than getting to some sort of climactic single boss episode. Sure, sometimes an area does climax in a particularly tough battle, but that happens often enough without artificially creating it into a campaign.

 

In a CRPG, with conventions as they are, designers are forced to create the ever-lame "end boss." In a campaign, the players can be just as satisfied with the feeling of accomplishment at reaching a final goal. That includes a lot of tough battles, some of which are climactic in and of themselves, along the way. It also includes some tough puzzles and maybe a little legwork on the part of the player.

 

NPCs in my campaigns are created the same as the player characters, but some of them have skills, feats, or items that, to me at least, are appropriate for the character's background. It all boils down to how well the game is written.

 

So, DMs cheating all the time can be lame, but DMs who say they "never" work with the rules, rolls, and players are ridiculously foolish and lame.

[Llyranor]

What if a PC gets killed because of a completely incidental roll that wasn't precipited by any sort of player stupidity?

[Shadowstrider]

"Uh... it's "the big bad." TBB can't be just another bad guy, he needs to be extra-ordinarily challenged or players feel robbed."

 

Nope. My players never seem to feel that way at all. in fact, they are usually estatic, and feel proud of themselves for such an accomplishment espciially since they know I tend not to take it easy on them. Whenn this happens, they know they earned it, or got lucky. And, sometimes, all ya need is luck espicially in a game where dice (ala D&D) is involved.

 

 

"TBB himself doesn't need to be uber, he could simply come with allies, but even then TBB needs SOMETHING be identified with. Any good TBB has some sort of seemingly super-natural power or aspect to them."

 

That's ludicrous. Most of the best TBB I've seen in pnp don't have any special power outside of overly strong persoanlities and a will to give thier wants (outside of the spells, and skills like characters).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uhm... Lord Soth? The Dragonlance villains? The drow (who were originally planned solely as villains and not playable).

 

Don't know what super-lame campaigns you run/design, but I don't know anyone who would want anything to do with "joe schmoe" TBB. It's hard to romanticize a villain you could simply live next door too.

[Volourn]

"What if a PC gets killed because of a completely incidental roll that wasn't precipited by any sort of player stupidity?"

 

Luck stinks. It's a part of playing a game. What part of role-playing GAME did you miss?

 

Do you allow people to reroll (ie. cheat) in yahztee?

 

That said, if it happens way too much ala multiple time sin one session then I'll back off as that *ruin* a player's fun in no time if they repeatedly die through no fualt of their own.

 

But, that's the exception to the rule.

 

 

"It's hard to romanticize a villain you could simply live next door too."

 

Right. Because we all have mages and orc shamans (from my examples) living next door to us. LOLOLOLOLLIPOP

 

We're talking fantasy here. By default, they have 'supernatural powers' so they shouldn't need unfair advantages beyond that. In fact, my players will scream bloody murder at me if I made a habit of issuing super pwoers they have no access to to UBB. Once,a nd awhile is acceptable but as a matter of practice. No way, Jose.

 

HELLO!?!

[Shadowstrider]

Absolutely false with no basis in fact. Espicially dealing with D&D.  Have an enemy mage follow the rules, and give him a good personality, and he can *easily* be a very memorable villain.

 

Heck, I had one orc shaman who became a very hated (in a good way) enemy of my player ssimply because he scaped an onslaught by them and came back with a vengenace (and all legit, and noc hetaing or unfair advantage given to him).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who said anything about memorable?

 

I remember Aribeth, despite her being a piece of crap.

 

You claim you don't need to give something a supernatural ability, yet acknowledge you change the game on the fly to make it more challenging... "Why would they? That's why a DM has the right... no, the obligation... to change rules if they should intervere"

 

That reeks of lame.

"The orc escaped."

"What? How? I shoot him."

"You can't. He, like, ducked behind the rock or something and then disappeared into a cave."

"We follow him!"

"Can't the cave has collapsed..."

[Cantousent]

I'm always suspicious of the folks who take a completely hard line in DM style. I think they DM more in their mind than they do at a table. Unless, of course, they DM in their own mind sitting alone at a table.

[Gromnir]

am thinking that there is almost no d&d dms who has not cheated at one time or another. low level d&d is too damned lethal. can't get no campaign going if characters actually die as the dice fall. low level 3e d&d is actually worse than ad&d in this regard. criticals = insta death at low levels.

 

in a crpg, with dumb ai to control the actions of an npc rather than a living person, and with the player having benefits of reload, we gots 0 problem with NPCs being fudged.

 

in a pnp campaign... have never had to overpower an npc. Gromnir is the gm for chrissakes and we can stack the damned odds however we want. if Gromnir really wanted to we could gurantee that no player party ever survived even a 1:1 ratio D&D cr encounter.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Llyranor]

Hehe, I would so cheat as a DM. Rewarding intelligence and punishing stupidity and keeping the players on edge when I'd feel it was appropriate. I see rules as just an aid, nothing more.

[Volourn]

"That reeks of lame.

"The orc escaped."

"What? How? I shoot him."

"You can't. He, like, ducked behind the rock or something and then disappeared into a cave."

"We follow him!"

"Can't the cave has collapsed..."

 

Where the heck did I post that i ever did anything remotely liek that?

 

The orc shaman escaped because a bunch of 'typical' orcs tried to abush the party. It was obviously quick that the orcs were no match for the PCs so they started to run randomly. The PCs as PCs are wont to do started chasing them down. However, a few orcs including the shaman managed to evade capture. This orc eventually gathered the survivors together and began plotting his reveneg. He then started hounding the players with random attacks by his cohorts while he gained power for the eventual confrontation. When they finally confronted him again, the players relaized he wans't going to run away this time. ... In fact, they did as he fought them on his terms..

 

Good stuff.

 

R00fles!

[Shadowstrider]

Worst. TBB. Ever.

 

If that is an example of a TBB, you fail the internet and life.

[Volourn]

Uhuh. If you say so. It's not my fault that you feel that all uber bosses should be the 3rd grandson of Hades with the power to move mountains and to controlthe armies of BOTH heaven and hell.

 

HAHAH!

 

What the players liked about this orc shaman is that he wans't really special, and in fact, in a way they created him. He went from your typical orc shamn who was simply happy bowing to his god (Gruumish) and kissing his cheiftain's ass to someone who wanted more which eventually included taking power from the chieftain forcefully (as orcs are wont to deal) and wrecking havoc on the PCs and their chosaen home village.

 

Like any good big boss.

 

But, the bottom line, he didn't cheat. He didn't have any special powers beyond what the shaman (cleric) class gave him. But, he did have a personality, and the will to dominate others including (temporarily) a PC (through his clerical magics).

 

He also had perosnality which the players also liked instead of being some silly over powered munchkin.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Llyranor]

Actually, I like Magical Volo's TBB. Power does not come from character level alone.

[Shadowstrider]

As usual, you fail to post anything of real substance, yet have so many words and typos.

 

How did he wrestle power from the orc chieftain? What was his name? He is hardly even believable as a character in what you've posted, let alone as a BB. This orc gets chased off like a little girl in a plaid skirt (hawt!), returns to his tribe and somehow, magically, rises to power? Seems pretty far-fetched or supernatural to me.

 

Try again.

[alanschu]

It's a good thing the baddies in the Kotors survived so long to make an epic battle, eh  <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

A big knock against KOTOR is how ridiculously easy the game is.

[Llyranor]

The first Malak battle was the lamest piece of crap ever. The presentation of that whole scene was nauseating.

 

You beat the crap out of him once. He runs away. You beat the crap out of him again. Bastilla saves you from certain death and gets captured!

 

YAY!

[alanschu]

Sure, they are. If they weren't why bother with gaming systems at all. Might as well just play dress up and play act. Without the rules; you aren't role-playing; you are acting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Acting is role-roleplaying.

[alanschu]

I'm always suspicious of the folks who take a completely hard line in DM style.  I think they DM more in their mind than they do at a table.  Unless, of course, they DM in their own mind sitting alone at a table.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree with this 100%

[Gromnir]

The first Malak battle was the lamest piece of crap ever. The presentation of that whole scene was nauseating.

 

You beat the crap out of him once. He runs away. You beat the crap out of him again. Bastilla saves you from certain death and gets captured!

 

YAY!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

the multiple lives thing for a boss character in ANY game feels so much like a bad arcade game scenario. is lazy design.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"How did he wrestle power from the orc chieftain? What was his name? He is hardly even believable as a character in what you've posted, let alone as a BB. This orc gets chased off like a little girl in a plaid skirt (hawt!), returns to his tribe and somehow, magically, rises to power? Seems pretty far-fetched or supernatural to me."

 

Because to cover all that would take far longer than a simple post. The campiagn focused on him for a good 6 months or so of solid playing. The PCs originally encountered these orcs at around level 5.... they eventually succeeded in winning at level 10, and not without cost.

 

He 'wrestled' power from the chieftain the old fashion way - he showed the rest of the tribe how weak he was. And, he didn't return to said tribe right away. The reasonw hy he ran away because like I said, the battle and his eventual fleeing changed him and his outlook. Before then, the orc (whose name was Urgthu; yeah yeah; make fun of the name; big whopop; it's a friggin' orc name afterall). He gained power, and killed the chieftain after he wanted the chieft to attack the village. Cheif thought it was too suicidal to attack the human village so ordered Urgthu's death. of course, by this time, U had infiltrated the guards with word of the chief being a coward for not daring attack the humans so the guards did not move). U then proceeded to challenge the chief to a duel which is what occurs. He won by showing who had the real power - the shaman of Gruumish with a simple hold person spell. LOLOLLIPOP

 

This, btw, is from memory since this was awhile back.

 

As for it being far feteched... surely no far fecthed than say your example of Lord Soth. Or the mioghty hero who once was a simple farmboy. LOLOLOLLIPOP

 

 

"Acting is role-roleplaying."

 

A different kind of role-playing, yes. Not the kind that D&D should be unless you play dress up.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

Since I'm an evil critic, the big guffah is the ease of which the guards seemed to have been successfully coerced.

[Shadowstrider]

Since I'm an evil critic, the big guffah is the ease of which the guards seemed to have been successfully coerced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Among a several others.

 

Let's allow Volourn to figure them out. He is actually making a valid arguement for once, but I don't think he understood where I was going with this.

 

His orc's rise to power seems forced, excessively forced. Supernaturally forced. Deus ex.

[Volourn]

"Since I'm an evil critic, the big guffah is the ease of which the guards seemed to have been successfully coerced."

 

Heh.. from the guards' pserpective , and them being big, dumb violent orcs; they just want to kill stuff. The chief, menahwile, after a few setbacks didn't feel the risk of attacking the humans was worth it. As always, he flet that because he was simply the biggest (physically) orc in the village (afterall, that's how he became chief in the first place by cutting the head off his predeccessor) that his word would be law. And, it was... until the shaman started playing mind games. You know, by saying things like 'Gruumish would want us to destory the humans'... which, of course, with Gruumish is true. The other shamans didn't intervere in the struggle as the intrigue between the two is what their god wants - the strong shall rule. And, when the fight started, the chief was arrogant in his superiority over the snotty nosed 'spell flinger'...

 

And, the story goes on. Of course, asf ar as the campaign itself went this was background stuff that the PCs didn't know much about...

 

 

"is orc's rise to power seems forced, excessively forced. Supernaturally forced. Deus ex."

 

No. Gruumish did not intervere.

 

It was a DM chocie, of course, if that's what you mean by 'supernatural'. In that regard, everything dealing with a campign is supernaturally forced by the Dm since the Dm ultimately decides this stuff.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Shadowstrider]

There are several issues.

 

1) The orc manages to escape the PC.

2) Defeated, this orc returns to his tribe (no matter how long he waited), strolls into the camp and immediately begins spouting off lines to make a play for power.

3) None of the orcs seem to question either the delay in the orc's return, nor his defeat.

4) The tribe more or less rolls over for a shaman who was not only defeated by a bunch of weak humans (an affront to Gruumsh), but then fled and hid (and even larger affront to Gruumsh).

 

It's all very convenient, and hardly convincing. Especially on the player's end where, as you said, the PC's didn't know much about it. As a player this orc wouldn't seem like a big bad, at all, and more of the comedic relief with 9-lives.

[alanschu]

Then the big, dumb, violent orcs would have likely done something about it sooner.

 

Or the big, dumb, violent orcs would likely have never let the chieftan come to power to begin with, unless the chieftan was in some way smart enough to do maintain power. At which point, he'd probably recognize that the big, dumb, violent orcs he was leading were building up their bloodlust.

 

Leaders that lead simply because they are bigger than the other people don't maintain power that effectively. Furthermore, you've created a character that seems to value his might more than anything. Given the apparently stupidity of the chieftan, I'm surprised that he was smart enough to rationalize why they shouldn't attack the humans, yet dumb enough to think that his pacifism (which seems out of character for him) would not jeopardize the image of strength that he seems to highly value. And that the rest of the tribe seems to value.

 

It would seem more plausible for your chieftan, given he's not very smart, to not exercise any restraint in wanting to kill humans. Especially when, psychologically, he's been reinforced that displaying his might (killing the previous chieftan) has allotted him more power.

 

Yet an Orc Shaman, humiliated by defeat, segregated for a period of time, comes in and says that their god would want them to kill the humans....

Edited April 25, 2006 by alanschu

[Llyranor]

Please stop posting outright lies. You may think that they are vain attempts at being funny, but when it happens an uncountable amount of times, it just makes you look stupid. It does not reflect well on you as a person, and being a member of these message boards, it does not reflect well on... this forum.