NWN2 only 20 hours long?

[Meshugger]

The whole cynism on NWN2's length certainly comes from many bitter ones, as myself, after witnessing how the ending of KotOR II worked out. Also, the silence from the devs adressing the matter and how the game-length has gone shorter and shorter while the releasedate has come nearer.

 

Sawyer's "HELL NO" isn't helping much.

[Cantousent]

Oh, I probably had a chip on my shoulder, Lonewolf. It gets late and you never know what the hell I'm going to write.

 

Anyhow, For good or ill, we're going to have to wait to find out what the hell is going on with the game length. The previews will undoubtedly give us a clue. No matter what else, even if the reviews tend to be glowing, there won't be much hiding how long the game is. If that doesn't work for you, then you'll just have to wait. Still, find someone you trust to give you the skinny here and maybe at a couple other boards and then just flatout ask those specific individuals how long the game lasts.

 

For whom is the exact length of the game a deal-breaker? That's not a snide, loaded, or sarcastic question. I'm curious. I mean, there are so many other factors going into the game that the length, in and of itself, doesn't present a significant worry.

[karka]

I don't know you guys, but if this is true NWN2 will be the last Obsidian Game for me.

 

They already made a mistake with KOTOR 2. This is their last chance.

Edited April 23, 2006 by karka

[Darque]

I have to admit, if the game can be beaten (with "everything" done) in 20 hours I'll be waiting for the first or second price reduction.

 

Maybe he's just talking about the main quest... in which case 20 hours (if you rush straight to the end) isn't that short.

[kirottu]

^That would be a good thing indeed.

[Darque]

Exactly, things might not be as bad as they seem

[mkreku]

If I reviewed a full price RPG and beat it in ~20 hours, I'd deduct points because it was too short. 20 hours just isn't good enough, no matter how much quality they present during those short hours. Compare it to Jade Empire: The bits that were there were beautiful, well-written (mostly) and interesting. But the game ended almost before it started, which is bad value for your money, no matter how you twist and turn it! Long game and quality are not mutually exclusive.

 

As a comparison, I clocked 110 hours on Oblivion before turning in the review.

I beat Dragon Quest 8 with just over 100 hours played.

Gothic 2 + Night of the Raven stole 80+ hours of my life.

I was probably stupid, but Fallout (and Fallout 2) took a lot longer than 10 hours for me to complete. Closer to 50 hours.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Typo.

Edited April 23, 2006 by mkreku

[Darque]

Yeah, but what if it's 20 hours for the main quest and 40 extra hours for sidequests and stuff?

[kirottu]

I was probably stupid, but Fallout (and Fallout 2) took a lot longer than 10 hours for me to complete. Closer to 50 hours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I remember when my big brother had run in to problems in Fallout 2 and asked my help. It turned out that he was going to enclave base at level 15 or so. :D At that point I was usually somewhere in 30ties.

 

Basicly in RPG there should be choice for those who don

[Atreides]

How many hours did you guys clock on KOTOR2 on your first run through?

[kirottu]

How many hours did you guys clock on KOTOR2 on your first run through?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think I had bit under 30 hours... And it didn

Edited April 23, 2006 by kirottu

[karka]

IIRC, about 35 hours.

[Morgoth]

20 hours is fine for todays standards. Just make sure you don't waste those 20 hours with silly fedex quests, rats slashing and 5 level deep dungeon looting. I want to see a game where Obsidian's true muscles can flex, hopefully that lies in tons of versatilely characters with a variety of emotions that exceeds the library of being either angry, nasty, gay or drunk. And that in conjunction with a dynamic campaign, something where consequences actually have meaning. You now, how is that actually called? Roleplaying?

Edited April 23, 2006 by Morgoth

[kirottu]

20 hours for a main campaign is good enough, but 20 hours for a game is not enough.

 

I wont pay full price for a 20 hour game.

Edited April 23, 2006 by kirottu

[Tigranes]

Compare it to Jade Empire: The bits that were there were beautiful, well-written (mostly) and interesting. But the game ended almost before it started, which is bad value for your money

 

Perhaps my analysis differs because I did not like JE very much, but here's my take: JE was a fairly 'good' game as in above mediocre, but without that spark of excellence. As such, I felt that its length was appropriate - any shorter and it would not have felt like a campaign / journey / progress at all, any longer and it would have been exposed of its shallowness (esp. combat, which *was* good, but failed to develop well). But then, if I loved JE I guess I would think differently.

 

Anyway, times:

-> JE: 12-15 hours, I remember because I did it in one sitting. I have high standards for VO and didn't feel the need to listen to JE's, which was mostly mediocre: and I'm a fast reader. That will have cut at least an hour or two off the final time, I think. I reloaded a few times after some early fights, but after that it was easy, and I didn't get stuck much. No walkthroughs, and I did do some sidequests, and make char. dialogues.

 

-> KOTOR2: ~30 hours. I pretty much did *everything*, but I liked the game a lot. I believe I milked every single piece of dialogue possible from companions, as well. Not many reloads at all with super-easy combat, of course. No walkthroughs. Again, I don't wait for VOs when I finish reading.

 

The thing with KOTOR2 is that when you play it, you are surprised by just how *tiny* some of the planets are (Korriban is just two dungeons, for example) but when you are just thinking about its length on the fly you think "X Planets". Malakor was short too, unless you had the Remote kill every monster in its path or something. Still, if NWN2 is around that long, I will be satisfied, if not ecstatic.

 

-> Just for some perspective: 60 hours to finish +100 quests, 3 guilds, MQ, many random dungeons in Oblivion: 20-30 hours for PS:T, to do pretty much everything.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Tigranes

[Kaftan Barlast]

We expect a CRPG to last up around 50 hours, if it ends before 20, we will feel disapointed. Its the same thing as going to the cinema and finding out that the film, although good, is only 40min long.

 

It also a question of having waited for years and followed the development of a game and then having it all end before you blink. Thats a surefire way to disapointment.

 

 

Because people get enjoyment out of games that they complete.  If the gamer loses interest because they feel things are going on too long, they'll have negative (or at least a less favourable) image of the game.

 

Furthermore, keeping length shorter helps keep costs down.

 

Just curious, do they teach any of this production stuff at your school?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Of course they teach us this.

 

 

Ive already established that "Shorter Games = Less Content = Easier and faster to develop" but I wouldnt scoff at the negatives I listed, clearly the negative reactions we see in this thread is not exclusive to a small clique of gamers. Jade Empire is a very good example of a game that got alot of negative attention because it was over almost as soon as it started and Ive heard that opinion from a wide range of people, not just hardcore gamers.

 

In the other end, Ive never seen it mentioned in a review or mentioned by a player that a game was too long. Especially in the CRPG genre, length is always seen as something positive. Longer game = more of the fun = more value for your money.

 

 

There are a lot of myths in the gaming bussiness and the idea that you have to adapt games to inattentive people who cant take complexity or play longer than a sunday afternoon, is most likely one of them.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[kirottu]

In the other end, Ive never seen it mentioned in a review or mentioned by a player that a game was too long. Especially in the CRPG genre, length is always seen as something positive. Longer game = more of the fun = more value for your money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NWN OC and Lionheart were both too long(because of bad quality) and I finished them both only because I had bought them.

[Tigranes]

That's because you didn't like the game, in which case:

 

Longer game = more of the crap= more crap for your money.

 

And in THAT case, you wouldn't like it if it was short or long, because it's crap. Length becomes irrelevant I think, people don't blame companies for their own insistence at completing games they don't enjoy.

[kirottu]

And in THAT case, you wouldn't like it if it was short or long, because it's crap. Length becomes irrelevant I think, people don't blame companies for their own insistence at completing games they don't enjoy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But those two games both were made too long. NWN OC

Edited April 23, 2006 by kirottu

[Tigranes]

Well, if you're making the case that the game as a whole would have been more enjoyable were they shorter, I agree. I thought we weren't dealing with the issue of production and quality/length slider - at least, I wasn't, sorry for the confusion.

 

Pretty much my point is based on the assumption of a static quality value, then regarding the question - do people like that game short so they can finish it, something that Kaftan regards as a myth? I say I agree, length doesn't hurt CRPGs at least.

[kirottu]

Pretty much my point is based on the assumption of a static quality value, then regarding the question - do people like that game short so they can finish it, something that Kaftan regards as a myth? I say I agree, length doesn't hurt CRPGs at least.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. They are, after all, rare occasions where you get the feeling that some point of the game is only put there to make game longer.

[Atreides]

How many hours did you guys clock on KOTOR2 on your first run through?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think I had bit under 30 hours... And it didn

[Hassat Hunter]

This makes no sense whatsoever.  If a player couldn't have even been bothered to continue playing past Dantooine in the current game, why in the world would they think that the new game would be worthy purchase based on the previous game?

 

"Oh yeah, Obsidian....they made that game that I couldn't even bother finishing for whatever reason, I'm totally getting this game."

 

Well, if you didn't like Kotor2 you would probably never gotten as far as the Dantooine meeting. So my point was: "If gamers break of due to lenght, and that lenght does not expose the weaknesses of the ending, you get more buyers of next games than if everybody finishes to a lame ending". Taking Kotor2 once again as example:

If you like the game but stop at the meeting due to lenght you are more likely to think of OE as a *great* company oppossed to us who finished it and liked it, yet not so much anymore after going through all the crap thereafter.

Point 2 is that IF there is a quality-drop ingame it ALWAYS happens at the end. Do you really think this is only to fool the reviewers and get artifically better scores, or because alot of gamers also wouldn't reach this ending? If the devs are so convinced everybody plays to the end why don't make an avarage start and an amazing end so the gamer is left in a Wow state and can only remember those amazing last moments of the game. I dunno about you but I usually remember certain parts of games after a long while. By PS:T for example I remember more how awfull the combat is and how many combat scenes there were after Sigil than I remember how cool Sigil itself was. Even if I do remember that I had fun in Sigil, I can get into less detail than I can about the awfull combatscene's that followed it.

 

More bunk.

A game like Deus Ex didn't make people buy IW because it was a long game.  It made people buy IW because it was an excellent game, with fantastic story, excellent characters, etc. etc.

 

How you turn it IW is the exact same story told as in DX. The only thing is that they removed "fluff" as it is nicely called here. RPG system with stats? "Fluff" removed! Bulky interface which makes you puzzle? "Fluff" removed. Long live carrying 20 bazooka's!

EDIT: Let's net forget that awfull complicated "fluff" called ammo types... Gone with it! It makes you search for ammo in the game, how timewasting can something get?

Hell, they even removed all the "fluff" *action* from the game.

Why make 3 missions to know the people you are going to betray and make a band with them. WE CAN DO IT IN 15 MIN. Oh yeah!

Why make the turning away from your original team (UNATCO and whatever it was in IW, I cannot remember) in a mission of 2 if you can do it WITHOUT ANYTHING AT ALL?

Why explain the fractions? Useless "Fluff"!

Why make a mission or 3 around the big conspiracy going on IF YOU CAN DO IT IN A 5 MIN CONVO?

Face it. DX:IW is DX raped by taking everything away that made DX good. And you can say that is "quality" but what maded that quality? The lenght everything was spread about. Add back in that lenght and thus immersion in IW and you would have had a better game than DX ever dreamed being! The fact you had TIME to get familiar with the folks. Did I care about Anna and Gunther even after I left UNATCO. Yup... Did I care about my fellow students after I left whatever. Nah... "come quick, I can die if you not help me"... SO WHAT? I actually think I shot her up myself too (and that was supposed to be the romance...lol)

 

I think I'll made it clear... shorter games != better games. Usually quite the opposite. What makes a good RPG? Interaction with the people and (especially) teammates. A feeling of progress, but not "you are a wuss [1 battle later] you saved the world" speed progress. The fact that you can play like you wanted your character to play. Do you wan't to help X or Y in this conflict? Not just being forced to choose either one of them, which might happen if a game is too short and you won't be introduced to X and Y so you can make an actual choice...

Edited April 23, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Gorth]

I like my games long

 

With all it's flaws and overdone easter eggs, length was the factor that made me like FO2 better than FO (which really was too short).

 

There are exceptions, like when the content is exceedingly dull (NWN:OC), then length works against the game, but otherwise, I prefer to just spend time in a setting and game that I like. The more the better...

 

I'm going to wait a few months after NWN2's release before making my mind up as to whether to get it or not. If it rocks, it will still be full price at the time, if not, it might alread have hit the bargain bin

[LoneWolf16]

Oh, I probably had a chip on my shoulder, Lonewolf.  It gets late and you never know what the hell I'm going to write.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's called aging, grandpa. "

 

 

Well, can we all at least agree that it's the quality of the content that comes first, rather than the overall length of the game?