Scaling.

[metadigital]

It's a tough call, though.

 

Bethesda obviously prioritized wanderlust above over-achievement in their design phase, and Oblivion is the result. By that I mean the ability to play in the sandbox, to go and do any quest at any time is a fundamental design decision that was taken before a line of code was written.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great, then let the player deal with the consequences of attempting to conquer an area that is obviously full of great challenges before the character is of an ideal level to do so. I've read Bethsoft designers defend the easily-abused learn-by-doing system by saying that it's not their responsibility to prevent the player from doing stuff like jumping around the world non-stop to build their Acrobatics skill. I don't get why that philosophy doesn't extend to things like auto-balancing. In games like Ultima V, the Phantasie games, Fallout, even Pool of Radiance, the player had many exploration options at any given time. After leaving Tilverton in Curse of the Azure Bonds, you could head straight to the Mulmaster Beholder Corps if you wanted to. Your characters were all in the 5th-7th level range, but hey -- knock yourself out.

 

Auto-balancing effectively removes serious consequence from player choice. As unintuitive as this may seem, choice without serious consequence often makes the player feel pretty impotent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All very valid points: the downside is certainly that I have no real incentive to level up my character. Counter-intuitively, levelling up makes the game harder, as it must keep the balance for the PC, so the game has to LEVEL UP with the player!

 

But for all the criticism, I can't help but think there are some good points to the system. After all, ther is no way a player can wander through the game, letting the game play itself, for example. In every encounter, the PC stands a good chance of dying (simply because the monsters are at the same level and the PC is outnumbered): throughout the entire length of the game and at every stage of player development (novice, journeyman, expert, etc). That's no mean feat.

 

Also, I haven't found the levelling up / scaling issue to be as much a bugbear as people in this thread, though. Perhaps my OCD-need to have a perfect(-ly rounded) PC sits this system better than others who would prefer to specialize in just sneak and blade, say, or heavy armour and a two-handed sword? (My Paladin has spent nearly all the game sneaking around, for example, with acrobatic jumps in between, whenever fatigue permits.)

 

I do find myself thinking it is better to go and do the main quest now, rather than wait, so that it is more moderate in difficulty. That's a new experience for me.

 

I think there is less room for error with higher PC levels, because the AI is smart enough to know its strengths and weaknesses

[Gromnir]

ss contradicts self.

 

"So long as you don't make a bunch of non-combat skills your majors you should be fine."

 

as you note in your conclusion, skills do not increase at a proportional rate. is not simply a problem if a person has non-combat skills... can (as you seem well aware) be a problem if they has the wrong combat skills. alsp, the combat skills is hardly balanced... not even close to being balanced. as we said, ss ain't trying to be reasonable as much as he is trying to defend.

 

"So? Giving players the option to continue playing after they've done everything is a bad thing, now? Yes, the option to go back and clear out Vilverin a dozen times is there, but you're not forced to. Where is the problem?"

 

problem? is not a problem unless you is arguing that oblivion ain't metagamy... which it clearly is.

 

and clearing out the same area multiple times is not always a matter o' choice. is how many different caves in oblivion? they all pretty much look the same.

 

playing after you is done with game ain't a big thrill for Gromnir, but some people like. even so, such a fuction typically allows you to go back and finish up stuff you didn't do while finishing critical path... rarely does it mean that a person should be able to simply replay the same (already completed areas) over and over and over.

 

"My warrior can cast the lowest level protection spell (given right after making your class) while decked out in Umbra's armor and go toe to toe with 3 Clanfears, at level 15. Only spells I use are a 25 point healing spell and said protection spell. Granted, my sword drains magicka with every hit (thanks sigil stone )."

 

am not sure what your exapmple proves... other than that the 1007 makes the man... and if you ain't lucky 'nuff to come cross the right 1007 for your character build?

 

sorry ss, you really ain't being reasonable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It certainly is better.  At level 10 you can't get enormous stat increases with magic items, at level 20+ you can.  I've had characters so fast the enemies couldn't keep up with me while I was sneaking, or characters so strong I can take half health in a single blow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He's level 2 not level 10. At level 2 I had a sword that can kill in one hit because I got lucky with a gate stone.

 

Umbra couldnt do that at the time you get it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Oh and, whoever designed the main quest in Oblivion...  There is a discontinuity smack in the middle of Kvatch when the captain ushers you on to recapture the castle but you're supposed to deliver a certain someone to a safe place.  You'd think that the captain would understand that you've practically got the most important person in the empire with you, but no - he suggests that you attack the castle at once with that certain person in toll, despite the fact that he's the one person all of Oblivion is after.  *shrug*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I left that particular person in the church and came back for him. Quite tempting to have him tag along though since he's both a decent warrior and immortal.

[metadigital]

... And casts a bajillion heal spells.

[Azarkon]

I left that particular person in the church and came back for him. Quite tempting to have him tag along though since he's both a decent warrior and immortal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what I intended to do as well, but it made no narrative sense. The point of going to Kvatch was to fetch said person to safey, and going dungeon crawling to open the gates of the castle while he's in the church (or in toll) just felt wrong, especially since none of the guards there even acknowledged his presence.

 

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to not talk to him until you're done with the castle quest. But damn, you'd think that after hyping up the narrative around the guy they'd expect you to search for him first as opposed to trying to retake the city, especially since he was standing right there in the chapel.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

But for all the criticism, I can't help but think there are some good points to the system. After all, ther is no way a player can wander through the game, letting the game play itself, for example. In every encounter, the PC stands a good chance of dying (simply because the monsters are at the same level and the PC is outnumbered): throughout the entire length of the game and at every stage of player development (novice, journeyman, expert, etc). That's no mean feat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think that lasts.

 

By 20 the game difficulty was a joke. It's a game about items, not characters.

 

Even my worst moment in the game Kvatch wasnt as hairpulling as say Star Ocean on 4d. It was just a shock to the system because rather than gradually build upto it, it was just there. Kinda like meeting the first boss in Ninja Gaiden.

 

The problem now is because of the scaling there are no great challenges in the game world either. No Dark Valefor or Omega Weapon. Or more MMPORGy no planes to aspire to , or "gods" to slay.

 

So while scaling certainly kept the game more challenging that Morrowind. I don't think it could ever be the only solution. It's just too predictable in the long term.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That's what I intended to do as well, but it made no narrative sense.  The point of going to Kvatch was to fetch said person to safey, and going dungeon crawling to open the gates of the castle while he's in the church (or in toll) just felt wrong, especially since none of the guards there even acknowledged his presence.

 

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to not talk to him until you're done with the castle quest.  But damn, you'd think that after hyping up the narrative around the guy they'd expect you to search for him first as opposed to trying to retake the city, especially since he was standing right there in the chapel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In my first game I didnt even attempt the second part retaking the city. The first bit was enough of a shock to the system.

Second game I spoke to the captain and the person concerned wasnt there. I guess he'd gone off when everyone else left. Since I didnt feel like hunting for him I reloaded and spoke to him first.

[Llyranor]

I left that particular person in the church and came back for him. Quite tempting to have him tag along though since he's both a decent warrior and immortal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what I intended to do as well, but it made no narrative sense. The point of going to Kvatch was to fetch said person to safey, and going dungeon crawling to open the gates of the castle while he's in the church (or in toll) just felt wrong, especially since none of the guards there even acknowledged his presence.

 

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that you're supposed to not talk to him until you're done with the castle quest. But damn, you'd think that after hyping up the narrative around the guy they'd expect you to search for him first as opposed to trying to retake the city, especially since he was standing right there in the chapel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The linear nature of the main plot really hurt the game in that sequence. Arriving at Kvatch, there's a big freaking gate, some survivors have gathered at the church, one of whom might be the one you seek. Bam, instant opportunity to make significant decisions. Do I risk the portal, helping out the city in the long run, but potentially delaying the retrieval of my primary target? Do I drop everything else and just focus on ensuring my target's safety?

 

Oh. The gate blocks the only way into the city! I have to turn it off before I can do anything else! Joy. Rollercoaster ride

[metadigital]

But for all the criticism, I can't help but think there are some good points to the system. After all, ther is no way a player can wander through the game, letting the game play itself, for example. In every encounter, the PC stands a good chance of dying (simply because the monsters are at the same level and the PC is outnumbered): throughout the entire length of the game and at every stage of player development (novice, journeyman, expert, etc). That's no mean feat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think that lasts.

 

By 20 the game difficulty was a joke. It's a game about items, not characters.

 

Even my worst moment in the game Kvatch wasnt as hairpulling as say Star Ocean on 4d. It was just a shock to the system because rather than gradually build upto it, it was just there. Kinda like meeting the first boss in Ninja Gaiden.

 

The problem now is because of the scaling there are no great challenges in the game world either. No Dark Valefor or Omega Weapon. Or more MMPORGy no planes to aspire to , or "gods" to slay.

 

So while scaling certainly kept the game more challenging that Morrowind. I don't think it could ever be the only solution. It's just too predictable in the long term.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As has been noted several times, by several of us, the system ain't perfect (by a long chalk). Still, I applaud Bethesda for re-engineering their solution to the "RPG problem".

 

After all, they could quite easily have rested on their not-insignificant laurels and just pumped out another Morrowind.

[Shadowstrider]

as you note in your conclusion, skills do not increase at a proportional rate.  is not simply a problem if a person has non-combat skills... can (as you seem well aware) be a problem if they has the wrong combat skills.  alsp, the combat skills is hardly balanced... not even close to being balanced.  as we said, ss ain't trying to be reasonable as much as he is trying to defend.

 

I'm not trying to defend Oblivion nearly as much as you seem to think. You're just jumping to the "defending the game he worked on" conclusion. I don't think having "the wrong combat skills" is possible. At least in all my play throughs it hasn't been.

 

problem?  is not a problem unless you is arguing that oblivion ain't metagamy... which it clearly is.

 

Once again, you're making leaps that aren't in my post. I said LESS metagaming than in other RPGs. It isn't unbelievable that a group of rogues would take up an old group of rogues hide out.

 

and clearing out the same area multiple times is not always a matter o' choice.  is how many different caves in oblivion?  they all pretty much look the same. 

 

playing after you is done with game ain't a big thrill for Gromnir, but some people like.  even so, such a fuction typically allows you to go back and finish up stuff you didn't do while finishing critical path... rarely does it mean that a person should be able to simply replay the same (already completed areas) over and over and over.

 

Whether or not you enjoy it, has no bearing. The option is there, you can use it or not. I don't see how it effects you if you decide not too.

 

am not sure what your exapmple proves... other than that the 1007 makes the man... and if you ain't lucky 'nuff to come cross the right 1007 for your character build?

 

sorry ss, you really ain't being reasonable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My example proves that at loot provided at your level (Umbra's armor scales), you can take on multiple foes. At level 15, if you're decked out in unenchanted, appropriate level armor (sword excluded), you can survive. So long as you don't stand around like a yutz.

[Shadowstrider]

It certainly is better.  At level 10 you can't get enormous stat increases with magic items, at level 20+ you can.  I've had characters so fast the enemies couldn't keep up with me while I was sneaking, or characters so strong I can take half health in a single blow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He's level 2 not level 10. At level 2 I had a sword that can kill in one hit because I got lucky with a gate stone.

 

Umbra couldnt do that at the time you get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Sorry, I'm not following. You've lost me.

 

What are we talking about?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What are we talking about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Right now I'm level 2. I've closed four oblivion gates and I'm pretty much a god, or as near to it as I can be at this level. I'm wearing a combination of fur & blade armour and most things are going down fairly quickly.

 

I don't however, see any reason to level up. None whatsoever. If things are just going to get harder and frustrate me - what is the point? Better equipment? Better spells? More money would be nice, sure. But why? So the gear will break the economy? I don't spend money. The only thing I'd really buy are spells, but so far, I'm doing just fine with my flare and minor heal thing. I don't even use the chill touch spell.

 

So... could someone give me a valid reason to level which does not include "better gear"? Or at least, not solely that. I don't mind if I'm fighting stunted scamps by the thousands. If the game is simply going to get harder, I may as well stay at level 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Shadowstrider]

My reply had nothing to do with that. It was in response to your "when you level up loot technically isn't better" spiel.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

As has been noted several times, by several of us, the system ain't perfect (by a long chalk). Still, I applaud Bethesda for re-engineering their solution to the "RPG problem".

 

After all, they could quite easily have rested on their not-insignificant laurels and just pumped out another Morrowind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well it was more a Morrowind problem than an "RPG" problem. From where I'm looking at it though they havnt so much solved it as replaced it with more problems.

 

As well as removed some of the fundamentals of RPGs along the way.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

My reply had nothing to do with that.  It was in response to your "when you level up loot technically isn't better" spiel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well that's what I was replying to.

 

The loot might look better but your more lethal with a rusty dagger at level 1 than you are with Umbra at level 20.

[metadigital]

As has been noted several times, by several of us, the system ain't perfect (by a long chalk). Still, I applaud Bethesda for re-engineering their solution to the "RPG problem".

 

After all, they could quite easily have rested on their not-insignificant laurels and just pumped out another Morrowind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it was more a Morrowind problem than an "RPG" problem. From where I'm looking at it though they havnt so much solved it as replaced it with more problems.

 

As well as removed some of the fundamentals of RPGs along the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NO, there is definitely an "RPG problem", otherwise why would GURPS use a differnt system to d20?

 

Until a perfect solution (read: never) even an optimal solution will have non-optimal aspects.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

NO, there is definitely an "RPG problem", otherwise why would GURPS use a differnt system to d20?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Trade mark restrictions.

[metadigital]

No. They are different ways of dealing with reality in a fantasy setting.

[Shadowstrider]

My reply had nothing to do with that.  It was in response to your "when you level up loot technically isn't better" spiel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well that's what I was replying to.

 

The loot might look better but your more lethal with a rusty dagger at level 1 than you are with Umbra at level 20.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't use Umbra.

 

At level 20, I'm decked out with magic gear thanks to sigil stones Umbra is not an impressive weapon, at all, it simply soul traps. Grab a sword, any sword you have, and enchant it with a sigil stone for damage. The game is much easier when you deal standard damage +6 cold (about what is available at level 5).

 

You guys are relying far too much on being GIVEN items. The creation system is in place for you to create magic items on your own.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I don't use Umbra.

 

At level 20, I'm decked out with magic gear thanks to sigil stones  Umbra is not an impressive weapon, at all, it simply soul traps.  Grab a sword, any sword you have, and enchant it with a sigil stone for damage.  The game is much easier when you deal standard damage +6 cold (about what is available at level 5).

 

You guys are relying far too much on being GIVEN items.  The creation system is in place for you to create magic items on your own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

(old game)Umbra was part of my trinity.

 

(new game)I got a +15 shock stone at level 2 bit money intensive at that point. It's expensive feeding it.

 

(old game)My primary weapon was a +35 vampiric ebon mace. :D

 

Thats pretty much expecting everyone to join the mages guild. Or raid countless gates in hopes of getting a good strone ?

[Gromnir]

"thats pretty much expecting everyone to join the mages guild. Or raid countless gates in hopes of getting a good strone ? blink.gif blink.gif"

 

Yeah, great design, ss claims he ain't defending bethesda out of misplaced loyalty, but he is really not being even remotely reasonable. Is no bad combat builds... In spite of the threads that has been purg-ed at tes observing the contrary. Oblivion is LESS metagamy in spite of the numerous folks claiming the opposite... Even folks who like.

 

Even so, bad level scheme does not make this game unplayable. As meta and others note, you can, if game becomes too tough, simply stop leveling.

 

HA!

 

But honestly, the level scheme ain't what made Gromnir quit. We simply got bored. Dialogue were too bad, and quests, while improved over morrowind, were often more than a little screwed. The find-the-painting quest were just one example. We found the painting and paint on the rug and the paint supplies, but 'cause we found those things 'fore we spoke with every named person in the castle those clue acquisitions didn't count towards quest fulfillment. Huh? But we coulda' dealt with all those things if not for the fact that combat were so damned boring. Very little sophistication or savvy required.

 

Nevertheless, we can see why some folks really like... We is just noting that pretending that oblivion's level scheme ain't unbalanced and irrational and metagamy is a fanciful delusion or the result of having not played enough types o' oblivion characters. Fans get the free pass as chances are they only play-ed their own build, but ss, as a developer type, not got such an excuse.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shadowstrider]

So let me get this straight, I'm being defensive when I say people are having a bad time because they're not taking full advantage of the things the game was made for.

 

A warrior going through the whole game without making magic items is like a wizard going through and never buying any new spells... yet I'm the one being stubborn. In D&D, if a wizard or a warrior didn't have magic gear at level 20, guess what happens? Or if a wizard doesn't have enough spells?

 

Sorry Gromnir, but you're just taking the "he's a developer route" out, you're the one being stubborn. You're reallying grasping for straws now. Where the hell did I say there was "no bad combat builds?"

 

Picking up blade, light armor, and a bunch of spell schools but never using any spells in combat, or buy new spells, or crafting new magic items would gimp you pretty bad. It still wouldn't be unplayable, but it would be a pain in the ass.

Edited April 4, 2006 by Shadowstrider

[Tigranes]

A warrior going through the whole game without making magic items is like a wizard going through and never buying any new spells...

 

That's perfectly true, SS. But isn't it contradictory of that very idea to make Fighters go through a long and laborious process of performing Mage Guild tasks to get to Enchant items? I'm not saying Morrowind is better, but that Oblivion on one hand makes Enchanting an exclusive mage affair, but on the other hand is supposedly "highly recommended/sort of required" for all characters. And no, I dont' want to join every single guild because it is really immersion-breaking, and I thought TES was about freedom anyway.

 

I mean, if you used spells, sure, you want to go make use of Spellmaking, etc. But what would you think if mages had to move up the ranks in Fighters Guild so that they could get a hold of, i don't know, Powerful Staves?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

A warrior going through the whole game without making magic items is like a wizard going through and never buying any new spells...

 

That's perfectly true, SS. But isn't it contradictory of that very idea to make Fighters go through a long and laborious process of performing Mage Guild tasks to get to Enchant items? I'm not saying Morrowind is better, but that Oblivion on one hand makes Enchanting an exclusive mage affair, but on the other hand is supposedly "highly recommended/sort of required" for all characters. And no, I dont' want to join every single guild because it is really immersion-breaking, and I thought TES was about freedom anyway.

 

I mean, if you used spells, sure, you want to go make use of Spellmaking, etc. But what would you think if mages had to move up the ranks in Fighters Guild so that they could get a hold of, i don't know, Powerful Staves?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. Surely if making magic items is at the core of being a fighter, the magic item makers should have been in the fighters guild not the mages guild.