Mythic structure in RPGs/video games in general

[J.E. Sawyer]

Caveat lector: these are a bunch of rambling thoughts written down over the course of half a week. I didn't start out with a destination in mind. The writing was prompted by thoughts about game plots and their characters.

 

***

 

RPGs are historically grounded in mythic tales. Though the pen and paper hobby grew out of tabletop wargaming, those wargames were quasi-Medieval and fantastic in style. The systems, like Dungeons & Dragons, and the settings that grew out of them drew much inspiration from Tolkien. Tolkien, in turn, took much of his own inspiration from myths like Beowulf, the Prose Edda, and the Kalevala. Mythic tales, if we are to believe some of the central things that Joseph Campbell writes, follow observable patterns in the development of the central characters and the struggles that are of major import to the story. These mythic standards are so ingrained into our culture that people almost instinctively identify with stories that follow the traditional patterns, or so the theory goes.

 

It should not be surprising that RPGs, which took inspiration directly from myths, wound up with similar stories and themes. Dungeons & Dragons attempts to play with the concepts of good and evil, law and chaos, but mostly in superficial ways. Evil people are fundamentally selfish, good people are fundamentally selfless. There are grades within those categories, defined on a Moor****ian law and chaos axis which indicates a preference for collective governance vs. individual freedom, but it doesn't delve much deeper than that.

 

Certainly the published D&D settings that enjoy popularity fall back on these basic concepts. Most Zhentarim of the Forgotten Realms, the Scarlet Brotherhood of Greyhawk, and certainly characters like Strahd and Azalin from Ravenloft are "traditionally" evil. D&D allows for villains to be likeable, but there is never any question that they are villains. It's rare in the extreme that the heroes have any major flaws, anything that could truly alienate the player from identifying them as the good guys. Could Bob Salvatore's Wulfgar still be a hero if he were an unrelenting misogynist? How about a racist?

 

On a higher level, there is also rarely any question about whether the actions of the heroes are worse than those of the villains. Even in games like Fallout, where the player has the ability to play a truly despicable character, there's very little the character could do that compares to the Master's plan for wiping out the human race. In the absence of such grand visions of destructions, many RPG settings provide the comfortable framework of higher morality at work. Elements of the story reinforce that there is a clockwork mechanism that underlines the good and bad deeds of the universe and reacts to them in an established way. Even a setting as thought-provoking as Planescape relies on this; it's fundamental to the setting's concept. Good and evil aren't ideas in the heads of characters, they are codified realities defined and regulated by higher powers. "Remove all doubt, gentle readers, gears are turning."

 

In myths and in early morality plays, the facts of higher order were assumed. There's no question about what needs to be done to Grendel. Grendel's inherently evil nature makes Beowulf's actions against the creature obviously righteous. RPGs might occasionally throw a pseudo-curve ball at the player by providing token justification for why the antagonists are doing what they are doing, but the reasons are almost never intended to excuse the actions of the antagonists. Marvel

[Nick_i_am]

This makes me wonder why no 'fantasy settings' have ever borrowed more heavily from greek mythology. Sure, some might borrow creatures (for example, Sirens) but the themes and concepts, even down to the nature of the universe are vastly different.

 

As was stated, fantasy arcutypes (and therefore, gods) are based pretty much entirely on alignment. Hearing 'Lawful good' can be all you need to know. But the Greek gods (as portraied in litriture) were 'more human than the humans'. Morals had to follow the rules that they set down, but that doesn't mean they had to. For example, the wife of Zeus, Hera, jelous of the fact that her husband keeps on raping mortals, takes revenge on the ravished mortals. Likewise, a chick who claims to be as good a weaver as a cirtain god is beaten in a competition and turned into a spider. The gods were vain, selfish and judgemental, and gods like that could do wonders for a fantasy setting.

 

Moving on, protagonists and antagonists were always more complicated than 'good or evil' and a hero wasn't really considered a hero unless he had a 'fatal flaw'. Take Odysseus, a 'great hero' and yet, his own pride gets all his men killed, he fights with a bow (a weapon that the greeks considered cowardly), and his own selfishness and curiosity causes a great deal of suffering to those around him. Take the most typical bad guy I can think of off the top of my head, the cyclops. Odysseus and his men steal his food and kill his animals, then complain when they start to get eaten. Said cyclops is eventally tricked and blinded, again, by 'cowardly means' and as our 'hero' is making his escape, he boasts his name to the cyclops, which allows the creature to call on his father (posidon, god of the sea) to bring storms upon him, killing yet more of his men. 'self defence' sure, but the cyclops was just trying to live peacfully before these men come and start murdering his herds.

 

Likewise, Medea, the wife of Jason (who lead the Argonaughts, another 'hero') kills her own children because Jason marries another, younger, woman to 'ensure his place in society'. 'I did it for the children' he says. Who is even the 'bag guy'? Medea killed her own brother and betrayed her family and countary for Jason, and is repayed for her divotion by being dumped like a rock for the younger model. But does this even start to justify her murdering her own children?

Incidently, Jason eventally dies when the rotting mast from the Argo breaks, crushing him. lol Irony.

 

Basically what i'm saying is that in greek mythology, 'good and evil' are not concepts that are ever important, rather, they are far more keen to look at the nature of man, and the nature of mans morality.

 

Just a random idea.

[mkreku]

Because I am obviously intellectually inferior, I'll nitpick instead!

 

Tolkein, in turn, took much of his own inspiration from myths like Beowulf, the Prose Edda, and the Kalavela.

It's Tolkien and Kalevala.

[kirottu]

Damn! I wanted to nitpick about Kalevala.

[Gromnir]

if josh wants Gromnir to write a paper/proposal on the viability of alternative narrative styles in popular entertainments, we would be more than happy to do so... present at next game developer conference if you wish... not even have to credit Gromnir.

 

HA!

 

the notion that crpg fans want nothing more than the simple morality tales w/ a traditional heroic protagonist is a firmly entrenched preconception that is understandable in spite of the fact that there has been absolutely 0 attempts at offering anything else. when millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours is at stake, most publishers and developers is predictably less than adventuresome, especially in light of the gaming industry's quarterly report culture.

 

nevertheless, whether it comes as the result of subversive action or open revolution, we expect that change will come, as it always does.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shadowstrider]

All I really got from this article was "I'm being stifled by the man." I know you put a lot more into it, but thats all I could get from it as I read.

 

Unfortunately, all industries have this problem where money is more important than originality. It is unlikely to change until it can be proven that you don't need to follow past successes formula to be a success... or, someone is brave enough to fund a project that doesn't follow a "winning" formula and is a success.

[Llyranor]

On one hand, there is an audience for imperfect heroes

[metadigital]

I agree that the technology is near to a point where it is possible for authors / artistic designers / developers to take over from bitsmiths pushing the resolution of the anisotropic-filtered, pixel-pipelined envelope.

 

I think companies like Bioware and OE can take a bow for creating the story-making magic boxes like NwN and NwN2 (and VALVe for Steam, too), which provide the stage, lighting, soundstage, special effects generator and acting troop for the budding Spielberg-Scorsese-Kubrick-Fellini-Barlasts of the RPG noir / surrealistic movement / cin

[ramza]

This makes me wonder why no 'fantasy settings' have ever borrowed more heavily from greek mythology. Sure, some might borrow creatures (for example, Sirens) but the themes and concepts, even down to the nature of the universe are vastly different.

 

As was stated, fantasy arcutypes (and therefore, gods) are based pretty much entirely on alignment. Hearing 'Lawful good' can be all you need to know. But the Greek gods (as portraied in litriture) were 'more human than the humans'. Morals had to follow the rules that they set down, but that doesn't mean they had to. For example, the wife of Zeus, Hera, jelous of the fact that her husband keeps on raping mortals, takes revenge on the ravished mortals. Likewise, a chick who claims to be as good a weaver as a cirtain god is beaten in a competition and turned into a spider. The gods were vain, selfish and judgemental, and gods like that could do wonders for a fantasy setting.

 

Moving on, protagonists and antagonists were always more complicated than 'good or evil' and a hero wasn't really considered a hero unless he had a 'fatal flaw'. Take Odysseus, a 'great hero' and yet, his own pride gets all his men killed, he fights with a bow (a weapon that the greeks considered cowardly), and his own selfishness and curiosity causes a great deal of suffering to those around him. Take the most typical bad guy I can think of off the top of my head, the cyclops. Odysseus and his men steal his food and kill his animals, then complain when they start to get eaten. Said cyclops is eventally tricked and blinded, again, by 'cowardly means' and as our 'hero' is making his escape, he boasts his name to the cyclops, which allows the creature to call on his father (posidon, god of the sea) to bring storms upon him, killing yet more of his men. 'self defence' sure, but the cyclops was just trying to live peacfully before these men come and start murdering his herds.

 

Likewise, Medea, the wife of Jason (who lead the Argonaughts, another 'hero') kills her own children because Jason marries another, younger, woman to 'ensure his place in society'. 'I did it for the children' he says. Who is even the 'bag guy'? Medea killed her own brother and betrayed her family and countary for Jason, and is repayed for her divotion by being dumped like a rock for the younger model. But does this even start to justify her murdering her own children?

Incidently, Jason eventally dies when the rotting mast from the Argo breaks, crushing him. lol Irony.

 

Basically what i'm saying is that in greek mythology, 'good and evil' are not concepts that are ever important, rather, they are far more keen to look at the nature of man, and the nature of mans morality.

 

Just a random idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for promoting the greek culture!

Very few people take the time to explore the greek myths, nowadays. They can however be a great source of inspiration for fantasy games or novels, and are very fun to read.

I especially recommend reading Homer's Iliad (which is about the story of Troy- it is much better than the movie, believe me) and Odyssey (which is about the adventures of Odysseus - it is also some sort of sequel to the Troy drama).

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's Tolkien and Kalevala.

In college, one of my German tutors went off on a rant about the pronunciation of Tolkien. To this day, that rant has made me incapable of knowing the proper way of spelling the name without immediate reference.

 

And yeah I messed up Kalevala sry.

[Nick_i_am]

Very few people take the time to explore the greek myths, nowadays. They can however be a great source of inspiration for fantasy games or novels, and are very fun to read.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Deffinately, I had a blast with Homer, Aristophanes, Aeshylus, Sophocles and Euripides.

 

It really says somthing for a culture that can produce so many writers of such a high quality in such a small timeframe.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Nick_i_am

[kirottu]

All I really got from this article was "I'm being stifled by the man." 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, but what a man he is. *dreamy fanboi sigh* Feargus.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Basically what i'm saying is that in greek mythology, 'good and evil' are not concepts that are ever important, rather, they are far more keen to look at the nature of man, and the nature of mans morality.

A lot of people today think that good and evil are codified things and they probably don't really like the idea of agony in a character whom they control. It's kind of disappointing, but I think that God of War was more adventurous in the presentation of Kratos than most RPGs are with their characters.

[Gromnir]

sophocles: a view of humanity we wish were true

 

euripides: a view of humanity we wish were false

 

"It is unlikely to change until it can be proven that you don't need to follow past successes formula to be a success... or, someone is brave enough to fund a project that doesn't follow a "winning" formula and is a success. "

 

is the rub of the problem. it costs millions of dollars to make a game that can prove to developers & publishers that a marketable game with an alternative narrative style is possible... millions of dollars which will not be forthcoming until somebody proves that such a game can be made.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ramza]

speaking of anti-heroes, I really like Max Payne! a very ambiguous character...

[Jorian Drake]

speaking of anti-heroes, I really like Max Payne! a very ambiguous character...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The guy of Mafia (game), Irenicus, Sarevok,

The drow woman from NWN expansion ...that reminds me of Dark Raven :D

Edited February 5, 2006 by jorian

[Lancer]

Wolverine is a good ant-hero

[Jorian Drake]

Wolverine is a good ant-hero

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nay, he's a lone wolf, or a dark hero

[metadigital]

All I really got from this article was "I'm being stifled by the man."  I know you put a lot more into it, but thats all I could get from it as I read.

 

Unfortunately, all industries have this problem where money is more important than originality.  It is unlikely to change until it can be proven that you don't need to follow past successes formula to be a success... or, someone is brave enough to fund a project that doesn't follow a "winning" formula and is a success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't buy the argument that reliable revenue forecasting necessarily prohibits creativity.

 

You can't tell me that EA, for example, has a cash flow problem. They have enough market leverage and large muscular international finance representatives standing behind them that they can do an SKG or Pixar. Instead, good game development is stymied by the rapacious greed manifested from the principle-agent problem anomaly currently plaguing the Wall Street corporate frontier. Except by companies that, ironically, are openly mocked (by trade magazines who are coincidentally bankrolled by advertisements from the same Gecko-inspired avaricious dysfunctionoids ) for placing design above seasonally-forecasted marketing-dictated deadlines, like VALVe and 3d Realms.

 

Just a thought. "

[J.E. Sawyer]

I wasn't so much talking about anti-heroes, which today are often defined as heroes who are sassy jerks, but characters who have serious negative flaws. Wolverine is a sassy jerk, but I wouldn't really consider him to be an anti-hero. Elric of Melnibon

[Shadowstrider]

You don't have to buy it. The reps in publishing companies buy it, and that is all that matters.

[J.E. Sawyer]

You can't tell me that EA, for example, has a cash flow problem.

Not exactly a cash flow problem, but...

 

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/02/technology...onic_arts.reut/

[metadigital]

I wasn't so much talking about anti-heroes, which today are often defined as heroes who are sassy jerks, but characters who have serious negative flaws.  Wolverine is a sassy jerk, but I wouldn't really consider him to be an anti-hero.  Elric of Melnibon

[J.E. Sawyer]

Riddick is meant to be an anti-hero, although (not having seen Chronicles) I haven't seen him do much anti-heroing, it's all been back-story ...

I know he's a pretty bad guy at times in Pitch Black, but I wonder if he gets the Deadpool treatment in Chronicles. Deadpool was the first Weapon X project, before Wolverine. When Deadpool appeared prior to his two mini-series, he was an anti-hero. In his second mini-series and the subsequent series, he became a sassy jerk with a heart of gold. I think it made him a lot less interesting.

[N'Al]

I'm just here to say that Brecht sucks. Friedrich D