Freedom of Speech.

[Jediphile]

But there is the third side:

 

Do you think it was good for the paper to publish these characatures?

 

My answer is no. I think they were wrong. And they should be told so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No need - they already acknowledged that it wasn't good for them. They also apologized that the caricatures had offended so many people (though they didn't apologize for printing them in the first place).

 

Besides, I dare say all the rioting and angry muslims have done a pretty good job of telling them that this was not something the muslims were happy with. The paper also admitted that had they known the consequences, they probably wouldn't have published the caricatures.

[Lucius]

Besides, I dare say all the rioting and angry muslims have done a pretty good job of telling them that this was not something the muslims were happy with. The paper also admitted that had they known the consequences, they probably wouldn't have published the caricatures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And at the same time, sympathy for the Palestinian cause has been bombed back 10-15 years according to one of the leaders of a Palestinian-Danish community org. (a Palestinian himself)

[Jediphile]

Besides, I dare say all the rioting and angry muslims have done a pretty good job of telling them that this was not something the muslims were happy with. The paper also admitted that had they known the consequences, they probably wouldn't have published the caricatures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And at the same time, sympathy for the Palestinian cause has been bombed back 10-15 years according to one of the leaders of a Palestinian-Danish community org. (a Palestinian himself)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that's one thing that really bombs me out. I've long had sympathy for the palestian cause (not that I support them suicide-bombing the israeli, though), but now I catch myself thinking, "well, if you're going to act like that, you can go..." - you get the point. Which is just sad.

 

I was finally beginning to see some hope for the peace process in the middle east again, but then Sharon (whom I don't particularly like, but who is important to the peace-process) was hospitalized... then Hamas came to power... and then this :'(

Edited February 4, 2006 by Jediphile

[Jediphile]

An overview of the conflict at the BBC

[SteveThaiBinh]

Useful BBC article, thanks.

It has also been pointed out that cartoons in the Arab and Islamic press "demonising" Jews and Israelis are common.

An important point, and one that suggests some of the protesters are being rather hypocritical. Another point that occurs is whether it would be acceptable, under freedom of speech, to reproduce these anti-Semitic cartoons in our newspapers. It would be grossly offensive, as most of us agree the caricatures of Mohammed are, but do papers have the same free speech right to publish them? I think they do, but I would also be disgusted to see such images proudly published in the name of free speech (I remember the Nazi cartoons from school history texts). It makes me understand a little better why the Muslim reaction to these cartoons has been so strong, though that's no excuse for death threats etc.

Why don't we give them a hand for a change?

I don't have figures to hand, but would not be surprised to learn that Denmark (by itself and through the EU) is a major aid donor to the Islamic world, and will (I hope) continue to be so when all this has died down.

 

On a related note, it's been facinating to see the usually rather extreme British newspapers and TV being so restrained in not publishing the cartoons. It's hard to get any consistency in their approach to freedom of speech. We've seen Jerry Springer - The Opera broadcast on BBC TV despite content as offensive to Christians as its possible to be, I guess. Yet Popetown (watch the trailer for a general idea) was banned before it was even broadcast.

[Jediphile]

US and UK voice criticism of the caricatures, whereas Kofi Annan urges the muslims to accept the apology and move on.

 

EDIT: Hmm, another enlightening article here

Edited February 4, 2006 by Jediphile

[Darth Launch]

*yawns*

 

Urgh... I can't believe this "debate" continues on here... I really think we're giving this whole incident more attention than it actually deserves... we're distracted from more important issues in life... the muslims (yeh, real ones! ) that I know and have spoken to about this all agree that the cartoons were distasteful, but strangely enough, are getting on with life and are more concerned about the continuing poverty in third world countries, as well as cancer, mortgages, bills and university assignments. Believe it or not, the vast majority of muslims are normal people too! Shock horror indeed.

 

I think people on both sides (although, I hate saying "sides" since that shouldn't be the case but clearly is) should get over it and move on

[Jediphile]

I think people on both sides (although, I hate saying "sides" since that shouldn't be the case but clearly is) should get over it and move on 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. Nobody is forcing you to read this topic.

 

2. Yes, people should get over it and move on. Unfortunately the muslims don't want to - they just torched the danish embassy in Damascus... Make up your own mind.

[Lucius]

The Swedish and Norwegian embassy was also attacked, don't know how badly.

[kumquatq3]

Freedom of speech ≠ Freedom to harass or discriminate exteriorly

 

Ok, now I can't draw Muhammad (not being religious) because it would be harassment or discriminatory?

 

If I recall correctly, these was a statue of Jesus made of feces hanging in a state sponsered art museum in New York not too long ago. I don't recall US embassies being burned.

 

Do you think it was good for the paper to publish these characatures?

 

colrom: My answer is no. I think they were wrong. And they should be told so.

 

Good? In what way?

 

Is it "good" to push the boundries of free speech? To excercise your rights?

 

Let me make one thing clear tho:

 

YOU think they are wrong, so YOU should tell them so. That is not the place of the goverment or anyone else.

 

 

...........................

 

Syrians Storm Embassies Over Caricatures

 

DAMASCUS, Syria - Rage against caricatures of Islam's revered prophet poured out across the Muslim world Saturday, with aggrieved believers calling for executions, storming European buildings and setting European flags afire.

 

Thousands of outraged Syrian demonstrators stormed the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus, setting fire to both buildings.

 

Police fired tear gas and water cannons to disperse demonstrators at the Norwegian Embassy after the Danish building was burned.

 

But the protesters broke through police barriers and set fire to the second building, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" which is Arabic for "God is great!"

 

 

 

The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire.

Edited February 4, 2006 by kumquatq3

[213374U]

*yawns*

 

Urgh... I can't believe this "debate" continues on here... I really think we're giving this whole incident more attention than it actually deserves... we're distracted from more important issues in life... the muslims (yeh, real ones!    ) that I know and have spoken to about this all agree that the cartoons were distasteful, but strangely enough, are getting on with life and are more concerned about the continuing poverty in third world countries, as well as cancer, mortgages, bills and university assignments. Believe it or not, the vast majority of muslims are normal people too! Shock horror indeed.

 

I think people on both sides (although, I hate saying "sides" since that shouldn't be the case but clearly is) should get over it and move on 

Aww... this thread isn't fuzzy enough for ol' Launchie. I wish Funsworth was here. He'd know how to cheer things up for sure!

 

 

French editor fired for reprinting the cartoons

Hooray for standing by freedom of press.

[Rosbjerg]

again I would like to stress the fact that these cartoons were not published as a direct provocation or as a direct statement for freedom of speech .. they were published to start a debate, because a danish author (K

[Atreides]

You know, we self censor dumb ideas. We get dumb ideas all the time but we strike them off because they're... bad ideas which would make us worse off.

 

I suppose the point here is why making caricatures of Islam is worse than maing caricatures of other religions, or politics.

[Darth Launch]

1. Nobody is forcing you to read this topic.

 

2. Yes, people should get over it and move on. Unfortunately the muslims don't want to - they just torched the danish embassy in Damascus... Make up your own mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right... no one is

 

And about your second point... it seems the rather subtle point I was trying to get at (that clearly was too subtle) was that the vast majority of muslims are moving on... the small minority that are the extremists are the ones who continue to go on... there is a difference between two... but I guess the press has the freedom to not clarify that

 

Aww... this thread isn't fuzzy enough for ol' Launchie. I wish Funsworth was here. He'd know how to cheer things up for sure!

 

French editor fired for reprinting the cartoons

Hooray for standing by freedom of press.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG! Let's hope he makes an appearance ^_^

[Rosbjerg]

You know, we self censor dumb ideas.  We get dumb ideas all the time but we strike them off because they're... bad ideas which would make us worse off.

 

I suppose the point here is why making caricatures of Islam is worse than maing caricatures of other religions, or politics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

and again, we are used to being quite sarcastic here.. and moslims here are used to the tone .. (even moslim standup comdians usually attack Christianity, which is fine, since it's on par with danish humor) 4 years ago there was a sketch about how annoying it was to find a dead moslim in your home, since we don't have any burrialgrounds for them .. and the sketch ended with the guy being charged several thousand kr in stamps as he send the dead moslim to his homecountry .. now this sketch had a point, but I would dare to agree that the point JP was trying to debate was just as valid!

 

A press can't accept censur that is based on fear .. nor can a democratic country or any citizen therein!

[Atreides]

Which is fine for me.

 

The right to carry out ideas - bad or not is fine by me as long as it isn't against the law and doesn't unnecessarily burden other people (say blasting Gn'[****ing]R at 3am in your appartment). My point is that self-censoring isn't an unfamiliar concept.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Atreides

[Rosbjerg]

true .. but silence can sometimes cost you more..

[Jediphile]

You know, we self censor dumb ideas.  We get dumb ideas all the time but we strike them off because they're... bad ideas which would make us worse off.

 

I suppose the point here is why making caricatures of Islam is worse than maing caricatures of other religions, or politics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

and again, we are used to being quite sarcastic here.. and moslims here are used to the tone .. (even moslim standup comdians usually attack Christianity, which is fine, since it's on par with danish humor) 4 years ago there was a sketch about how annoying it was to find a dead moslim in your home, since we don't have any burrialgrounds for them .. and the sketch ended with the guy being charged several thousand kr in stamps as he send the dead moslim to his homecountry .. now this sketch had a point, but I would dare to agree that the point JP was trying to debate was just as valid!

 

A press can't accept censur that is based on fear .. nor can a democratic country or any citizen therein!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Also remember the Jesus movie by Thorsen - major protests and problems for decades, but it was made in the end nonetheless. I do think people should remember things like that before they accuse Denmark of double standards.

[Lucius]

Amazing, they burned both the Danish, Norwegian and the Swedish. (though the Swedes haven't even printed the drawings). Syrian guards just turned their backs on the angry mob and didn't protect the embassy.

[Darth Launch]

and again, we are used to being quite sarcastic here.. and moslims here are used to the tone .. (even moslim standup comdians usually attack Christianity, which is fine, since it's on par with danish humor) 4 years ago there was a sketch about how annoying it was to find a dead moslim in your home, since we don't have any burrialgrounds for them .. and the sketch ended with the guy being charged several thousand kr in stamps as he send the dead moslim to his homecountry .. now this sketch had a point, but I would dare to agree that the point JP was trying to debate was just as valid!

 

A press can't accept censur that is based on fear .. nor can a democratic country or any citizen therein!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you Rosbjerg... but in general I think the press has much more responsibility to remain impartial and truthful than that of a comedian... or am I wrong to think that?

[Jediphile]

Which is fine for me. 

 

The right to carry out ideas - bad or not is fine by me as long as it isn't against the law and doesn't unnecessarily burden other people (say blasting Gn'[****ing]R at 3am in your appartment).  My point is that self-censoring isn't an unfamiliar concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Self-censorship due to poor ideas is fine...

 

Self-censorship due to fear of retaliation by religious extremists is not.

 

The real problem here is that both considerations apply, at least if you ask me, since I thought the caricatures were poor taste. But Jyllands-posten apparently decided that not giving in to fear was so important that they forgot to consider whether it was just a dumb idea. Again, as I see it. But even if we conclude that this was a dumb idea (which the newspaper pretty much has said itself), is this reasonable punishment for making a mistake?

[Atreides]

true .. but silence can sometimes cost you more..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally agreed. I think the issue largely boils down to my 2nd point earlier - why people fear making caricatures of Islam more (worse idea) than of other religions or politics. I don't think it's a coincidence.

[Rosbjerg]

I agree with you Rosbjerg... but in general I think the press has much more responsibility to remain impartial and truthful than that of a comedian... or am I wrong to think that? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well it's virtually impossible to remain impartial .. but I believe a newspaper has a responsibility to further debates and develop democracy.. In this case they went to far (in some of the illustrations), but it had an effect .. it just didn't further democracy, rather the opposite! now people are afraid of moslims ... but that's not JP fault, or Denmarks .. nor is it really anyone ones fault, but more the stubborness and radicalness of a few that have moved and affected the many..

 

Totally agreed.  I think the issue largely boils down to my 2nd point earlier - why people fear making caricatures of Islam more (worse idea) than of other religions or politics.  I don't think it's a coincidence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Neither do I .. but then what does self-censurship help? then you are practically saying radicalism is ok and we "accept" terror-threats (accept as in we are too afraid to say our opinion because we fear you'll kill us)

 

combat ideas with better ideas .. ideals with better ideals! provocation needs finetunement, so in this case we didn't succed .. but we won't give in to fear and not try!

Edited February 4, 2006 by Rosbjerg

[~Di]

I actually don't think there should have been an apology. Face it, just because insulting a prophet is against the law of a specific religion does not mean that said religion has a right to enforce its own laws upon those who are not of that religion. Which is, at its core, exactly what's going on here.

 

As to the embassy burnings, I am so not surprised. At least they haven't kidnapped a few dozen ambassadors, planning to torture them for the next year and a half, as Iran did to ours. Still, I can empathize with the anger and indignation the people of Denmark, Norway and Sweden feel. Americans have seen all too many of their own embassies burned and bombed over the past few decades. I do not believe there is ever a legitimate reason for that kind of violence; however, my opinion on that has been in the minority in the past.

[Volourn]

Hypocrisy. It's ok to burn a country's flag, their embassy, make fun of Christianity (with cartoons, and all other sorts of stuff); but make a few funny cartoons and people haywire.

 

There is NO justification of this violence. None.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Volourn