NHL

[mkreku]

Nice to finally see Sundin among the top 50 players in the scoring race. Personally I believe he belongs in the top 20, but I guess catching a puck in your eye the first thing you do in a season isn't the right way to go if you want to compete for the top spots.

 

Ok, so Toronto's next game is against the Islanders on away ice. That doesn't look too impossible, but Atlanta faces Washington at home, so they'll have an easier time getting those next two points. Tampa faces Carolina on away ice, so they have a very real possibility of losing their next game too! It will take a miracle to make it, but I guess after last night.. I shouldn't give up hope until it's over.

 

If Toronto wins their game against the Islanders, they're going up against Ottawa (on home ice) again for the season-breaker of a game! I really hope they win it against the Islanders so the motivation is peaking when they face Ottawa. It would be sooo nice to see them win ONE in the eight game series. Although, seeing how much problems they had dispatching Florida at home.. Ottawa is a whole other beast.

[Kor Qel Droma]

LOL

[Krookie]

7 goals. Wow.

[Deraldin]

Finally! Montreal pulls back within one on a shot by Souray!

[Kor Qel Droma]

What a matchup between Vancouver and San Jose tonight. Although I'm pissed that the Canucks picked up a point I'm relieved they didn't get two. That was a nailbiter of a game. First it was Vancouver up by two, then tied, then the lead was traded back and forth until Scott Hannan tied it up with about four minutes left in regulation. And a quick overtime goal ended my near coronary..

 

Is the rematch tomorrow? Hopefully I won't miss too much of it watching the Oilers / Anaheim game.

[mkreku]

4 assists by Big Joe tonight. I guess it's not lonely at the top for Jagr anymore.

[Hurlshort]

Yeah, Thornton was just awesome last night. He's two points behind Jagre, but they both have 3 games left to play. I really think Thornton deserve some type of hardware for this season. I mean, nobody has ever been traded in the middle of a season and made this type of impact. The Sharks were 4 games under .500 when he joined them.

[mkreku]

Ohno. Atlanta leads Washington 4-3 and Toronto are playing bad against the Islanders (2-2 at the time of writing). Ohno..

 

Edit: Woo! 3-2 Leafs! Stajan scored!

 

 

 

 

Another overtime win for the Leafs! I don't know how much more my heart can take. Unfortunately Atlanta looks like they are winning over Washington, although Washington has at least put up a good fight.

Edited April 14, 2006 by mkreku

[Deraldin]

Stajan isn't the only one who scored!

 

But he score again in overtime.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Deraldin

[mkreku]

It's insane that no Leafs player has scored 30 or more goals this season. And only three have scored 20 or more! No wonder they are where they are in the standings. I mean, Detroit (for an unusually bad example) has eight players with 20 goals or more and two players with 30 or more.

 

I just wish we had the goaltending from the start. That would have solved a lot of problems.

 

 

 

Edit: Wrong word replaced.

Edited April 14, 2006 by mkreku

[Kor Qel Droma]

Well Edmonton pulled off a huge victory tonight. 2-1 over the Ducks in regulation. If San Jose can hold up their end of the bargain ( well, my bargain at least) and hold off Vancouver for another eight minutes, the Oil will get that elusive final playoff spot in the west.

 

Go Sharks?

[Hurlshort]

San Jose would like to thanks the Oilers for beating Anahiem by welcoming them into the Stanley Cup playoffs. Congrats!

 

So Thornton is now tied with Jagre for points after 3 assists, and Cheechoo is only one goal behind Jagre's 54. San Jose pulls into the 5th place spot with the win...I just hope they can keep it.

[Kor Qel Droma]

We're In!!!!!!. Give your team a little punch on the shoulder from me Hurlshot!!

 

Usually there are about a dozen or so odd posters online at the Oilers forums. Tonight there are over a hundred. Nine threads have popped up with 'Playoff Bound' and 'We're in!' in the last hour. Its funny because every topic three days ago was 'fire the coach' and 'bench this player'. I guess that's what happens when your team decides to give you a few coronaries in the last four games of the season.

 

I'm going to sleep happy tonight.

 

 

edit: OOOOOOoooooooohhhhhhhhh....Detroit or Dallas? I guess I know where most of you sit on this subject <_<

Edited April 14, 2006 by Kor Qel Droma

[mkreku]

Hahaha, Dallas again!

 

By the way, Thornton should really get that MVP award, whatever it's called (name slips my mind). The guy has been unbelievably since the trade. He basically took the team into the playoffs and made Cheechoo (WHO??) into a 50+ goal scorer. That's impressive.

[Volourn]

Cheechoo made himself into a 50 goal scorer.

 

Jagr carries the Rangers on his shoulders alone while Thornton has Cheechoo to score goals for him.

 

Jagr has no Cheechoo. If he did, he'd have 150 points most likely.

 

Though; Thornton does deserve some look for MVP. He's definitely worthy... just not more worthy than Jagr.

 

Let's not alsof orget the fact that Thornton was leading the Bruins to a non play spot before the trade as well (not completely his fault though) so he obviously needed the right teammates to get the job done.

 

Meanwhile, Jagr took a team that was supposed to be dead last year, and ended a 7 season play-off droubt and they still have a good shot at a division title.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Volourn

[mkreku]

Cheechoo made himself into a 50 goal scorer.

Cheechoo:

---

2002-2003 66 games 09 goals 07 assists (without Thornton)

2003-2004 81 games 28 goals 19 assists (without Thornton)

2005-2006 79 games 51 goals 34 assists (with Thornton for the last 56-57 games or so)

 

Before Thornton (this season): 7 goals/23 games. (0.30 goals per game)

After Thornton (this season): 44 goals/57 games. (0.77 goals per game)

 

You really have no clue what a playmaker is, do you? Because that's a seriously stupid thing to say.

[Volourn]

Then why can't Thornton do that for others? Why was Boston on the way to missing the play-offs with him anyways? Also, one should note that he was producsing points wise in Boston as well to no avail. As far as I'm concerned MVPs don't gewt traded mid season.

 

Yes, it is true, without Thornton, Ceechoo is nothing. However, the same can be said about Thornton. Without Cheechoo in Boston, Thoronton was MVPing himself and Boston out of the play-offs. Thoronton is a great playmaker; but the one you pass to has to be able to put it in the net. Without that, a playmaker is nothing.

 

Meanwhile, Jagr completely SINGLEHANDEDLY is leading the Rangers' into the play-offs. He's also their everything. Goals, assists, GWG, plus/minus (he is now tied for the league lead in +/-; not bad for a guy who supposedly sucks at defense).

 

Jagr is THE Rangers. No Jagr, no play-offs even with their rookie goalie.

 

The Sharks, meanwhile, need BOTH Thornton and Cheechoo. Without either they miss the play-offs.

 

That's why Jagr is the MVP. He is the man. While Thornton is more important than Cheechoo in regards to the Sharks' success; he needs help.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Volourn

[mkreku]

Thornton's first 23 games (without Cheechoo): 9 goals 24 assists, 33 points.

 

He can't do that to others? The guy had 33 points in 23 games before being traded! It's not like he wasn't doing his part in Boston, but apparently he needed a fresh change of air.

[Volourn]

"Thornton's first 23 games (without Cheechoo): 9 goals 24 assists, 33 points.

 

He can't do that to others? The guy had 33 points in 23 games before being traded! It's not like he wasn't doing his part in Boston, but apparently he needed a fresh change of air."

 

That's exactly my point! He was producing in Boston yet they still weren't going anywhere, and they are about where they were then (oustide of the play-offs looking in and no real chance at them; but not near the bottom with the true basement dwellers like Pittsburgh or Washington (just in the secon lowest tier; but not really in the play-off hunt either).

 

I thought it was dumb that Boston traded Thornton 'cause as we both mentioned above; it wasn't like he wasn't producing there. But, see that's my point. To me, the MVP is the player who is most valuable to his team throughout the ENTIRE season; not 3/4 of it.

 

btw, I like Thoronton, and he is awesome. A worthy MVP; but Jagr is simply more valuable to the Rangers. If Jagr was not playing for the Rangers as well as he is; not only would they have no chance at the division title; but they would likely completely miss the play-offs. Meanwhile, the Sharks would likely just miss the playoffs with a (slim) chance to make them without Thornton. And, if they just had Thornton but no Cheechoo they'd be in the same boat.

 

Cheechoo, and Thornton are like a tag team. A tag team where Thornton is the better but both are needed. Jagr is the solo artist who dominates all.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Volourn

[Deraldin]

[sNIP]Blah, blah, blah, long post[/sNIP]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So then Kippersof deserves the MVP award because without him the Flames would be dead last right?

[Hurlshort]

Jagre will likely win it because of the tremendous media bias towards the East Coast. But yeah, the three guys that deserve a look are Jagre, Thornton, and Kipper. I'm biased because I see Thornton a lot, but he has tremendous defensive upsides, can win key face-offs, and has made more than Cheechoo into productive scorers (He set's up the defensemen quite often as well.)

 

Honestly my feeling is that whoever wins the scoring title, should then not win the MVP. That way both these guys get some recognition. Jagre will likely win the Rocket Richard award as well (most goals) so I think 3 awards is a bit of an overkill.

 

Kipprusoff deserves goalie of the year. But give Calgary credit, they play a stifling defensive game. Kipper is not the only player on that team.

 

The thing about Jagre is he has single handedly taken the Rangers to a division title. Thornton does nothing single handedly, he just makes everyone around him better. Which is a more MVP worthy trait?

[Volourn]

Yes, Thornton deseves a look at MVP no doubt about it. But, as you said, Jagr is taking the Rangers single handedly. That is the defintion of MVP.

 

And, this 'east coast bias' is silly created by mythmongers from the West Coasters.

 

And, the Art Ross and Hart are two different trophies given to people for two different reasons. The Hart shouldn't be given as Runner Up prize. That devalues it as a trophy.

 

Art Ross is easy. It's given to who has the most points which in this case is either Jagr or Thornton. The Hart should be given to the who the voters feel are the most valuable.

 

And, oh btw, it's not a guarantee that Jagr will win the Maurice Richard trophy. He only has a 1 goal lead, on you guess it, Thornton's partner in crime - even more reason to call Jagr MVP as he does it alone.

 

P.S. The Rangers aren't guaranteed the division yet. That will likely be decided on Saturday...

 

P.S. I do not believe Jagr has an e at the end of it.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Volourn

[Hurlshort]

Hehe, I thought I was spelling it wrong. Dang Czechs.

 

MVP is actually supposed to be given to the most valuable player for his team. Jagr is the best player in the league this season, but that isn't the same as being the most valuable player to his team. Honestly, I haven't watched him enough this year to know what he does for everyone around him. It sounds like he's winning games single handedly, which isn't the same as elavating his team to the next level. They are just along for the ride.

 

Which brings me to the East Coast bias. It's very evident in hockey for numerous reasons. The national TV networks are in NY, ESPN in is Connecticut, and 22 of 30 NHL franchises are in the Eastern or Central timezones. East coast games are just seen by more people. When the west coast games finish, the nightly sportscasts are already over.

 

The Rangers being in the playoffs is great for hockey because it's a very needed market. California can't compete for hockey exposure. But if you've watched Thornton, particularly down this stretch run, it's very hard to say he doesn't deserve the MVP. He's doing more than just putting up points.

 

Oh yeah, someone figured out that Thornton has more points per minute of ice time than Jagr.

[Volourn]

"MVP is actually supposed to be given to the most valuable player for his team. Jagr is the best player in the league this season, but that isn't the same as being the most valuable player to his team. Honestly, I haven't watched him enough this year to know what he does for everyone around him. It sounds like he's winning games single handedly, which isn't the same as elavating his team to the next level. They are just along for the ride."

 

You are right, and wrong. MVP isn't about who the best player is. It's whose most valuable to the team. The fact that Jagr = Rangers' success while Thornton is 'just' a HUGE part of the Shark's suc cess.

 

Another way to put it is this:

 

Without Jagr, the Rangers would be absolutely nothing. They'd be sleeping with Washington, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Chicago.

 

Without Thornton, while the Sharks wouldn't be as good as they are now, they'd at leats be still fighting for a play-offs (though likely on the losind end). Plus, there's the fact, that without Cheechoo, they'd be struggling to make the play-offs as well. The Rangers don't have another player that they absolutely must have to make the play-offs or win the division.

 

That's why Jagr is the MVP in most people's mind (except here at Obsidian where everyone likes to be contary to me, lol - not neccessarily on purpose but on reflex :D ).

 

Also, MVP isn't about 'making teammates better'; but most valuable to ones' team though I argue that Jagr does make his temamates better. Just look at his linemates whoa re having decent (not great) seasons and it's most likely diretcly linked to playing with the JJ.

 

 

"But if you've watched Thornton, particularly down this stretch run, it's very hard to say he doesn't deserve the MVP."

 

It's not that Thornton doesn't deserve a MVP nod. He most certainly is deserving. But, he simply isn't the *most* valuable player in the league.

 

 

"Which brings me to the East Coast bias. It's very evident in hockey for numerous reasons. The national TV networks are in NY, ESPN in is Connecticut, and 22 of 30 NHL franchises are in the Eastern or Central timezones. East coast games are just seen by more people."

 

This isn't really evidence of anything. Bias means more than this. The fact that the offices are on the East Coast means nothing other than the HNL was mostly EC before the expansion exploison (just look at the Original 6 where only Chicaago isn't on the EC (they're CT).

 

Bias, in this case, would mean players getting favors just for being on the EC. If Jagr wins MVP it would be simply because he was on an EC team; but because he earned it.

 

 

" It sounds like he's winning games single handedly, which isn't the same as elavating his team to the next level. They are just along for the ride."

 

This certainly sounds like MVP material to me. He elevates his team. He SINGLEHANDEDLY makes his team better. Thornton does to; but certainly not to the same degree as Jagr does. That's the key.

 

Points themslves only help to a certain point. All this proves is Jagr is so valauble that he's on the ice more. Also, it should be pointed out that JJ is tied for the league lead with +/1 (not that Thornton's +/- is bad as it's awesome too); but that also says a lot.

 

Great discussion.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Volourn

[Hurlshort]

We aren't getting anywhere on the Jagr/Thornton argument, because they are both simply awesome.

 

However, I do think the East Coast bias exists. It's not even a purposeful snub. It's just the fact that you get more exposure on East Coast teams. The games are earlier, sportcasters see more of them, blah blah blah. Any sportscaster in the business will admit that they see way less of the Pacific Timezone teams.

 

The MVP is also, sadly, a popularity contest. The player with more exposure will have the best shot at the award.