Japan.

[GuardianLegend]

Japan is the land of innovation. 

Proof, please.

 

 

I should take back the "fascist" insult, though. I don't know enough about your views to know if that's a good fit for you. But if you're not one, you might want to consider becoming one. Seems like it'd be a good fit.

That kinda proves how little you know about fascism. Please stop being so openly ignorant.

 

Also, while it's nice and all that you are trying to disregard the obvious retrogradation of the Japanese culture (take, for instance, the role of women in their society) by attempting to make distinctions based on the political outlook of the individual Japanese, the fact that their society, their art, and their history prove what Lyric is saying remains.

 

So, whatever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One could argue that Japan's recent declaration that a world democratic government is a good idea, and that Japan will try to encourage the establishment of such a government, shows it is far more advanced "culturally" than America, and is taking the logic of democracy to the fullest extent. And thus, American culture is "retrograde" and incompatible with modern politics. Others have argued that Europe and Canada's increasing number of athiests and agnostics makes them a more advanced culture than the more Christian USA, since belief in a fictional God is pure superstitious nonsense.

 

But all this, too, would be absurd, as it again lumps every single person in that nation into one cohesive entity. It is the very essence of racism, prejudice, and discrimination, and the very opposite of what democracy, liberty, and individualism is supposed to be about. *THIS* is why I called that fool a fascist. And if you knew anything about fascism, you'd understand.

 

To the fascist, individuals do not exist. Everyone belongs to a collective cultural entity. Every weakness, every strength, is due to some kind of concept of race or culture. This is precisely why fascism loathes democracy: it asserts that some people are vastly inferior than others, can be easily identified as such due to some sort of group membership, and therefore should not have equal political power as any other individual. See Benito Mussolini's "What is Fascism?" for more info.

 

Let's put some common sense into this conversation. We can make an educated guess and assume that since Lyric thinks 60% of the human race (aka Asia) is inferior to that of the white West, then he thinks most black and Latino people within America are also of inferior culture than that of white american culture. Obviously, this makes Lyric a bigot. Why do bigots cause so much controversy in democratic nations? Because everyone knows that cultural bigotry is inherently undemocratic.

 

It's really quite sad how often people divide things up into such most meaningless groups. "They dress different than me, therefore they are gay." Wow, that's deep.

 

And Lyrics, for a person not into politics, you sure have a lot of political opinions. "The bulk of the human race is garbage! But, I don't have any political views, really."

Riiiiiight.

[213374U]

One could  argue that Japan's recent declaration that a world democratic government is a good idea, and that Japan will try to encourage the establishment of such a government, shows it is far more advanced "culturally" than America, and is taking the logic of democracy to the fullest extent. And thus, American culture is "retrograde" and incompatible with modern politics. Others have argued that Europe and Canada's increasing number of athiests and agnostics makes them a more advanced culture than the more Christian USA, since belief in a fictional God is pure superstitious nonsense.

Did I mention the US' current political trends for anything? No, I didn't. Please stop including such blatant fallacies in your posts and don't try to use my posts as a basis to make that kind of absurd points, because that's twisting my meaning.

 

And, as for Japan's "World Democracy" proposal, I'll believe it when I see them implementing it. So far, it's nothing but empty words and talks nothing about the supposed "enlightenment" you so forcibly want to attribute them.

 

You know, the first "World Democracy" attempt was the precursor to the UN (whose name escapes me now), which later evolved into the present UN. And as a "World Democracy" it isn't worth jack. So, using your own twisted logic, I'd say Japan is still way behind.

 

 

But all this, too, would be absurd, as it again lumps every single person in that nation into one cohesive entity. It is the very essence of racism, prejudice, and discrimination, and the very opposite of what democracy, liberty, and individualism is supposed to be about. *THIS* is why I called that fool a fascist. And if you knew anything about fascism, you'd understand.

Wow, a long shot if I ever saw one. So, now just claiming that one culture is backwards (based on their history (recent and past) and their society) makes me a racist, discriminating bigot?

 

Well, I guess truth isn't for everyone. You can stay in the land of chocolate, if you wish.

 

 

To the fascist, individuals do not exist. Everyone belongs to a collective cultural entity. Every weakness, every strength, is due to some kind of concept of race or culture. This is precisely why fascism loathes democracy: it asserts that some people are vastly inferior than others, can be easily identified as such due to some sort of group membership, and therefore should not have equal political power as any other individual. See Benito Mussolini's "What is Fascism?" for more info.

Now that's pretty rich. So you are attempting to dispute the whole notion of a collective "culture", based on minor individual differences? Don't be ridiculous.

Newsflash, pal: being able to choose the color of your pants doesn't detach you from the culture you belong to.

 

And again, I didn't say anything about "inferiority" or "superiority". Stop putting words into my mouth, and we'll get along just fine. But then again, what'd you make your points from?

 

I also like how you have conveniently ignored what I pointed about women in Japan, and all that whole business about schoolgirl pants vending machines. You sure know how to dodge 'em.

 

 

Let's put some common sense into this conversation. We can make an educated guess and assume that since Lyric thinks 60% of the human race (aka Asia) is inferior to that of the white West, then he thinks most black and Latino people within America are also of inferior culture than that of white american culture. Obviously, this makes Lyric a bigot. Why do bigots cause so much controversy in democratic nations? Because everyone knows that cultural bigotry is inherently undemocratic.

 

It's really quite sad how often people divide things up into such most meaningless groups. "They dress different than me, therefore they are gay." Wow, that's deep.

How about you put some facts in your post, instead of assumptions pulled out of your ass?

 

 

And Lyrics, for a person not into politics, you sure have a lot of political opinions. "The bulk of the human race is garbage! But, I don't have any political views, really."

Riiiiiight.

I can't talk for him, but everyone has some kind of political views. It's impossible not to, as we live in society. It's a different thing to act on those views, or get involved in political debates. Another obvious fact you chose to ignore for the sake of your little rant.

 

Also, please point me to the post where he says that "everyone who dresses different than him are gay", or that "the bulk of the human race is garbage", because I seem to have missed those particular sentences.

 

No more straw men, thank you.

[alanschu]

Numbers man, the points Guardian Legend brought up were directed against Lyric Suite, not you.

 

That's why it seemed like he was putting words in your mouth.

 

 

And the precursor to the UN was the League of Nations.

[213374U]

Numbers man, the points Guardian Legend brought up were directed against Lyric Suite, not you.

 

That's why it seemed like he was putting words in your mouth.

Well, he quoted my post, didn't he?

 

If he wasn't really answering to it, then he can ignore my reply.

 

 

And the precursor to the UN was the League of Nations.

Ah, thanks for that. I knew it was something like that, I just couldn't find the exact name in English.

[Lyric Suite]

Numbers man, the points Guardian Legend brought up were directed against Lyric Suite, not you.

 

That's why it seemed like he was putting words in your mouth.

 

Like he wasn't putting words in my mouth?

[Lyric Suite]

One could  argue that Japan's recent declaration that a world democratic government is a good idea, and that Japan will try to encourage the establishment of such a government, shows it is far more advanced "culturally" than America, and is taking the logic of democracy to the fullest extent. And thus, American culture is "retrograde" and incompatible with modern politics. Others have argued that Europe and Canada's increasing number of athiests and agnostics makes them a more advanced culture than the more Christian USA, since belief in a fictional God is pure superstitious nonsense.

 

But all this, too, would be absurd, as it again lumps every single person in that nation into one cohesive entity. It is the very essence of racism, prejudice, and discrimination, and the very opposite of what democracy, liberty, and individualism is supposed to be about. *THIS* is why I called that fool a fascist. And if you knew anything about fascism, you'd understand.

 

To the fascist, individuals do not eist. Everyone belongs to a collective cultural entity. Every weakness, every strength, is due to some kind of concept of race or culture. This is precisely why fascism loathes democracy: it asserts that some people are vastly inferior than others, can be easily identified as such due to some sort of group membership, and therefore should not have equal political power as any other individual. See Benito Mussolini's "What is Fascism?" for more info.

 

Mmmh, the implication here is that any type of criticism one makes against any aspect of a determinated culture is 'lumping' every single person of a nation into a cohesive entity, which just isn't the case.

 

Criticism it's just that, nothing more. If i comment on the retrograde nature of japanise culture (like for instance their backward stance towards women which was brought forth a while ago), i mean nothing more then that.

 

I'm not 'lumping' every individual in the nation into a single entity, i'm not being racist or discriminating, i'm just making a statement about a particular aspect of their culture, which may or may not be shared by the individuals at large for all i know.

 

This ad hominem tirade of yours about the inherent refutation of democracy, liberty and individualism (which doesn't necessarily lead to fascism in particular) is a huge contradiction to the very definitions of those three concepts, as by your logic any sort of criticism of a culture makes a person a fascist.

 

So if i criticize certain social customs like female circumcision and comment on the retrograde nature of a culture that allows such level of barbarism i'm a fascist? Is this your idea of a free democracy?

 

Let's put some common sense into this conversation. We can make an educated guess and assume that since Lyric thinks 60% of the human race (aka Asia) is inferior to that of the white West, then he thinks most black and Latino people within America are also of inferior culture than that of white american culture.

 

Obviously, this makes Lyric a bigot. Why do bigots cause so much controversy in democratic nations? Because everyone knows that cultural bigotry is inherently undemocratic.

 

Did you just equaled 'race' with 'culture'?

 

I never said the 'white' west is superior to the populance of the 'asian' east. I said their culture was over-rated and inferior in certain ways, which is just the way it is.

 

I'm sorry to bust your politically corrected bubble of global equality and cultural harmony, but real life just doesn't work that way. If it wasn't for the west the east would still live the same way they lived a thousand years ago. Some middle eastern countries still do in many ways.

 

It's really quite sad how often people divide things up into such most meaningless groups. "They dress different than me, therefore they are gay." Wow, that's deep.

 

"The bulk of the human race is garbage!

 

Again, you are the one talking about individuals now. I never made comments to that effect.

 

Truly the politician Guardian, i think you may have a career on your hands, only next time, try not to refer to your opponents as fascists, fools or bigots...

Edited December 20, 2005 by Lyric Suite

[Diamond]

I said their culture was over-rated and inferior in certain ways, which is just the way it is.

The culture is overrated only because of the image created by western media, how can the culture be "overrated" by itself? If it is overrated in certain environment (western media), it doesn't mean it is inferior to some other culture.

 

Now that you reworded your statement by adding "in certain ways", it is correct, as all cultures with no exceptions have its internal problems.

Hence the honest answer would be "Their culture is foreign to me, their problems seem to me more serious than of my own culture, I am not willing to associate with it"

[Lyric Suite]

I said their culture was over-rated and inferior in certain ways, which is just the way it is.

The culture is overrated only because of the image created by western media, how can the culture be "overrated" by itself? If it is overrated in certain environment (western media), it doesn't mean it is inferior to some other culture.

 

Erm, i said it's over-rated (my main gripe) AND inferior, as well. I didn't imply the latter was a direct result of the first (it kinda is, but in a different way. Later on that), i just stated two distinct criticisms in one sentence.

 

Now that you reworded your statement by adding "in certain ways",

 

I didn't add anything. This was my original statement:

 

"Don't get me wrong, normally i wouldn't be so hard on them if my fellow westerners would drop this absurd obsession and blind praise for a culture that is entirely retrograde and inferior to our own in many ways."

 

Different wording perhaps, same meaning.

 

it is correct, as all cultures with no exceptions have its internal problems.

Hence the honest answer would be "Their culture is foreign to me, their problems seem to me more serious than of my own culture, I am not willing to associate with it"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Huh, the PC is almost suffocating.

 

Yes, no culture is without flaw, but some cultures are better then others. You'd be hard pressed to convince me China's past woes with a communist regime is merely a strand of a different culture, no better or worst then our own woes with a dim witted leadership. Hell, you'd have a really hard time to convince the chinese about something like that.

 

Of course, that isn't entirely what i'm talking about.

 

Given that my main issue is with eastern culture being over-rated, my main focus lies with those particular facets of eastern society that are over-praised here, like their art, philosophy and ancient martial practices.

 

Other details of their inherent culture do not concern me, but the apologists can't help but be overly defensive about issues such as this and take my comments in absolute terms, or worst, say i'm a fascist...

[Spider]

How can a culture be overrated anyway? Appreciation of culture is purely based on taste. If I find the japanese culture utterly fascinating, then that's because something in it clicks with who I am. If lots of people in the west feel the same way, then it becomes popular.

 

So if japanese culture gets a lot of exposure in the west, it's because a lot of people in the west find it interesting. How is that overrating?

 

Just because you may not like it, doesn't mean others don't have the right to.

 

Oh, and this:

 

For instance, i happen to be a great admirer of the arts and i find the orient to be severly lacking compared to our own. If i start examining Japan and it's culture, do you think i'm going to find a Caravaggio, a Goethe or a Brahms anywhere?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What this statement is implying is that artistic geniuses can only come from the west. Again, just because japanese art is not something you like, why can't there be artists that are equally brilliant in their own way. Not everyone think that Picasso is a genius for instance.

 

And finally, about their views on women. I agree a lot is left to be desired here, but we aren't that much better in the west. We also have a certain reverence for older men. How many female presidents have USA had? Hell, how many members of it's senate are females? 15. (I may have missed one or two if some names I felt were male actually weren't, but no more than that)

 

Here is the list.

 

Or even better, how many Fortune 500 companies have a female CEO? I actually can't answer for the top 500, but I got this from fortune.com:

 

"Even with Carly's departure from Hewlett-Packard, there are more female FORTUNE 500 CEOs this year than there were last year. A total of 19 FORTUNE 1000 corporations have women in the top job, including Anne Mulcahy at Xerox. "

 

19! Out of one thousand. That is 1.9%.

 

We can also do a comparison of wages between men and women, but unfortunately I don't know where to get access for that data. I have a strong suspicion what the answer will be, but no way to confirm it.

 

The point is, before we start criticizing how other cultures view women, we should clean up our own act first. We have come a long way, but we're nowhere near where we should be. Stones and glass houses and all that.

[Diamond]

I didn't add anything.

Actually I meant that (which is a rather general statement).

Japan's advancement frozed a thousand years ago, and all they have left is a perverted parody of the lowest of all western cultures: the US.

(BTW how Japan could left a parody to US a thousand years ago, if US is not that old yet )

 

Yes, no culture is without flaw, but some cultures are better then others. You'd be hard pressed to convince me China's past woes with a communist regime is merely a strand of a different culture, no better or worst then our own woes with a dim witted leadership. Hell, you'd have a really hard time to convince the chinese about something like that.

Aa period in history doesn't define culture as being inferior. Same way I could quote some shameful historical periods of US or Europe.

 

 

OK, that aside, my main point is that every culture has its own traits that just cannot be tolerated by people from other cultures (that's understandable), but saying that one strongly established culture is better or worse than the other would be at the very least inaccurate. Even Japanese think that their culture is superior in many to western culture for the same reason: they have grown up there and shifting your view is really hard, especially when you age.

[Hell Kitty]

Artists like Van Gogh were influenced by Japanese art. Those crazy easterners must have been doing something right.

 

Volourn had it right when he said he smelt bigotry in this thread.

[Meshugger]

Bah, i like japanese culture. Especially the Samurai and their bushido-code. And to really biased, i think that their view on honor is superior to any other culture.

 

This is ofcourse enhanced by watching too many Akira Kurosawa movies

Edited December 20, 2005 by Meshugger

[Azarkon]

I'm sorry, but I must laugh. Italy the most advanced civilization in the world until recently? (w00t)

 

Learn a bit of history, please. Through the ages, various civilizations have been the most advanced in the world. Western civilization is simply the most recent of these. There is hardly continuation between Greco-Roman power and the rise of Europe - you do remember the Dark Ages in-between, yes?

[Calax]

the japanese are a good society. Their view on honor can be... nasty. If you impinge upon a Samurais honor you get to enjoy a duel.

 

This is a culture that for a very long time could not be visited without causing some wierd sense of shame for the japanese. The two times they were attacked by the mongols, they (the japanese) would try to fight with honor and would have their leaders challenge to mongol leaders to a duel... a company of mongols would promply hit him with arrows and wait for the next officer to come running down the hill to challenge.

[Diamond]

I wonder why noone yet mentioned anything about their lifestyle, corporate culture, demographics, etc. Only anime, samurai and honor seem to be the most popular (and considered overrated by some) parts of their culture.

[Calax]

lifestyle...

 

No chairs.. you sleep on matss (well they do have western style rooms but not many of em. you can buy girls panties in a vending machine. beer too. Your crammed into a city like a sardine. and you use very reliable trains to get anywhere.

[Hell Kitty]

I wonder why noone yet mentioned anything about their lifestyle, corporate culture, demographics, etc. Only anime, samurai and honor seem to be the most popular (and considered overrated by some) parts of their culture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm suprised no one has mentioned ninjas. Probably because ninjas are so awesome they don't even need to be mentioned.

[Diamond]

I'm suprised no one has mentioned ninjas. Probably because ninjas are so awesome they don't even need to be mentioned.

[julianw]

Given that my main issue is with eastern culture being over-rated, my main focus lies with those particular facets of eastern society that are over-praised here, like their art, philosophy and ancient martial practices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will give you the martial practices one. I can't speak for Japan but I know fully well that the Chinese martial history is beyond overrated. In fact, it is already one big step into fantasyland. Throughout history, the Hans (majority in China) were constantly getting their a$$ handed to them by the Huns, the Mongols and many other minorities. As for philosophy, science and art, that discussion might go on days if we really get into it, but I am curious about how you are making your judgment. Obviously you never lived in the East. Have you studied them extensively? How can you tell that they are over-praised?

[Diamond]

As far as I get, he doesn't like that it is over-praised in the place where he lives.

 

For example, rugby is over-praised here in Australia and I hate both rugby and the fact that it is over-praised.

[Hell Kitty]

I have no interest in any sports, which is terribly un-Australian of me. I could whine about how sport is like sooooo overrated, but I'd much prefer to let my fellow Aussies enjoy the things they are interested in rather than claiming their interests are inferior to mine.